Why do some Protestants hate us so much?

[Zahmir]

I think the biggest misconception of non-Catholic Christians about the Catholic Church is the idea that their doctrines are not Scripturally based. In all honesty, their doctirnes have been worked out to such great detail on the basis of Scripture that it would take lifetimes to study it all and to have it all down. (Exaggerating maybe just a bit.) I would posit, with much to defend me, that the Catholic Church is the expert on Scriptural interpretation. I think once Protestants accept the fact that there is a Scriptural basis for many Church teachings (if not all), we can have rational discussions. Instead, I have been insulted for the Church’s “ignorance of the Bible,” etc.

Another big misconception is that the Church is “self-absorbed” or a cult that just wants more followers to participate in its rituals. In truth, the Catholic Church is all about God - Father, Son, and Holy Spirit - and especially about the Son, Jesus Christ who suffered and died for us on the cross. Protestants, however, can’t believe that Jesus Christ would place such importance on Sacraments or on ritual. They can’t believe that He would actually be PRESENT in the Eucharist… - and so they choose to bash Catholics for their “rite-focused cult.”

And to answer a previous posters comments:

1. Baptism is essential to Salvation.
2. Confirmation is important for full participation in the Church of Christ as the Holy Spirit bestows his gifts - (Baptism and Confirmation are really like one Sacrament).
3. Mortal sin is deadly serious (pardon the pun); venial sins are not just “sins on accident” - they are lesser sins of which we make many throughout our daily lives. There are a few conditions to commit a mortal sin though I think we don’t stress mortal sins as much as we should
4. Venial sins can be forgiven with a sincere Act of Contrition or receiving any Sacrament.
5. Purgatory is more of a “process” of purification. Why would anyone ever want something with the splotches of sin on their soul to be brought up into the Divinity?
6. Heaven will exist as long as God exists. There is a resurrection of the body (and life everlasting, Amen.)

Catholics serve in all sorts of ways according to the gifts they have been given. Not all are called to be profound volunteers - some are called to be simple workers who live out the example of Jesus in their daily lives.

God bless you all.

 

[tomarin]

at the same time I will vigorously defend the tenets of the Faith as I understand them

first you will need to convince catholics that your teaching authority (or that of your denomination) is more trustworthy than our ancient and apostolic church’s. on what is your authority based?

While the problem with the Catholic church may be empty ritual …

i think it’s somewhat presumptuous to assume our ritual is empty, since you don’t know how we experience it. if it appears empty to you it may be because you have never participated in it as an insider.

my tip to you is, if you wish to understand a religion try to accept it on its own terms as an integrated system of belief and practice. once you’ve honestly tried this then you can attempt making legitimate value judgements that do not simply confirm your own preconceived notions.

 

[Abira]

I think that someone has to go in search of an answer themselves…you can’t go to them with answers that they might not be ready to hear.

I hated the Catholic Church,

I sat in a question and answer session and asked a Priest how he could pray to Mary and have blasphemous statues of her near the altar…I was also thinking how can he take the role of God in forgiving people at confession when it was not his place…shouldn’t he just get out of the way and let people have a closer relationship with God?

he gave me quite a funny answer and I liked him but I felt that I needed to find answers out by mself - so I came to this forum the same week I asked him those questions.

I used to hate the Ctholic Church because:

I viewed it not as a church, but as a historically currupted human institution. I extended this to myview of all Catholics as they made up the institution.

I saw its fruits as only negative in the news.

The Pope was just its leader and in search of power by asking that he be infallable, I even said some really horrible things about JPII before he died that I regrett.

Only Jesus and God should be prayed to…not Mary or the Saints

The ammount of imagery and pictures etc made me uncomfortable

These are some of the reasons that I hated (and I use the word in its true meaning) the Catholic Church, but I only came to a better understanding when I was ready to find out for myself.

Before then I would not have even entertained a conversation with a Catholic, but I only speak for myself.

 

[Afterburned6387]

Thanks for y’alls responses to my post, but I do want to clarify a few things:

1. When I say self-absorbed, what I refer to is that the Great Commission applies to all of us, and to sit at home and worship God may have some value, we are called to go out and serve our fellow man, and to take the gospel to the farthest reaches of the earth, not to sit in church. Church services, worship and the like are immensely valuable in that they sharpen us, they tune us into God’s will, but are useless if they become and end to themselves.
2. My definitions of Venial and Mortal sin come from “Spiritual Excercises” by St. Ignatius, sorry if those aren’t the current definitions.
3. As with all things related to God, both outward appearance, and inward faith are required to please God. Any ritual done out of duty, and not out of love for God becomes empty. It is no great leap to say that many catholics do not participate in the sacraments out of Love or Worship, but out of familial duty. Even in my own Baptist church, our two Ordinances (as we call them) of baptism and The Lord’s Supper are rendered useless if not done with the correct heart.
4. I do not teach or “contend for the faith” (Jude 3) with any special apostolic authority, or even a seminary degree to my name, My arguments and defenses are only good so far as I can convince a person’s conscience to see the evidence, and that the conclusion I present flows naturally, and correctly from that evidence. I aim only to present arguments that the Holy Spirit within a person may testify to them is true.(1 Cor 2:16)

Thanks for hearing me out!

 

[twosweetgirls]

Any ritual done out of duty, and not out of love for God becomes empty. It is no great leap to say that many catholics do not participate in the sacraments out of Love or Worship, but out of familial duty.

I completely agree. Likewise, I’d imagine that there are plenty of Baptists, Lutherans, Methodists, Pentecostals, etc. who “go through” their own rites and rituals out of some sense of duty, or just sit there in church every Sunday and tithe, and think that’s all they need to do. I think this kind of spiritual “apathy” (for lack of a better word) reaches into every belief, as you mentioned.

Church services, worship and the like are immensely valuable in that they sharpen us, they tune us into God’s will, but are useless if they become and end to themselves.

Exactly! For me, being Catholic has only made me want to be even closer to Jesus–indeed, has brought me there already–and has helped me to be even more spiritually aware of wanting Jesus to dwell within me, and that makes me want to go out into my world to be the best “me” that He wants. I come out of Mass most times just wanting to shout “Jesus Is Lord!” from the rooftops.

I aim only to present arguments that the Holy Spirit within a person may testify to them is true.(1 Cor 2:16)

I hear ya. The Holy Spirit gives me a certainty, a clarity, a RESONANCE undeniable in my heart that the Catholic Church is home.

You work it!

 

[Afterburned6387]

Well then, we seem to be in remarkable agreement…then the question stands, can Catholicism be just another denomination? I’d like to think so, then all the theology and philosophizing I do would move from being salvation-critical to “one man sharpens another”… I’d like to think this is the case…once again, there is a problem…Your pope isn’t helping. According to him, the Roman Catholic Church is the only church, and us mere protestants are “false churches,” according to a recent document the vatican released. In fact, probably the biggest reason why Catholics get a lot of heat, as opposed to the freindly discussions among protestants is that at the Church level (i.e. the Vatican) there is great intolerance for the protestants. Which is odd really, because at the same time, JPII was unusually willing to reach out to other faiths, hindus, muslims, etc. and while he didn’t say they were perfectly valid, he said they “pointed to the spiritual nature of man” and commended them for their accomplishments.

How about us protestants? did we get commended for our stalwart dedication to finding better interpretations of the bible? no, we get slammed, thrown out, and told we are a “false church.” Once again, why is this? because hindus and muslims will say to the Catholic Church, “you have your deal, we have ours,” where as the protestants say “we have our deal, its actually your deal, but without you” and we face rejection. I wish we could just accept there are differences, but that we will all see one another in heaven.

 

[cjbauere]

Fear, fear we may be right, fear that everything they have been taught may be incomplete, lacking. Fear that if they investigate the Catholic Church as did John Henry Cardinal Newman, they will find the Catholic Church is the one true church. Then what?

 

[Mag_Uidhir]

Quite simply, is there no way to engage some of these Protestants in meaningful, rational debate? Anytime I tried to do anything, and I did make good arguments, they would only twist things around and go back on their own arguments…

Sounds like you signed into CARM to me, after two or three posts I was called a romanist.

And the mods always poking their noses in to back someone else’s anti-catholic opinion is something to behold.

It was a new one on me, but insults run off me like water off a duck, after awhile you get used to it, romanist ? oh well a change is as good as a rest.

 

[Atemi]

Oh, and you and your fellow n-Cs have never engaged any of us with similar rhetoric…nor with the errant intention of proselytizing us?

Actually, that was totally my point.

Lecturing others for what your own is guilty of is unconvincing and hollow.

Lecturing others about why they “hate” you when your own regularly refer to others with the same rhetoric is as hollow as it gets.

And speaking of “errant intentions of proselytizing,” maybe you should discuss that wih some of our Catholic friends on CARM. They have no such qualms.

As for the citations of terms that you make, I’ve seen them too and try to use better and more accurate terms, but in the context where they are used, most of them have been used accurately.

Ahhhh.

Wonderful apologetic for ad hominem and vitriol…as long as it comes from a Catholic.

What you are basically saying is that such rhetoric from an RC is acceptable because it is mostly used “accurately.”

I get it. I should have expected no different a response.

And on their worst days here at CAF, I find the Catholics here still far and away more charitable than the folks on your other favorite forum Atemi, so on a relative scale, you’re trying to justify a-C rhetoric that just doesn’t wash.

I justify no such behavior so don’t falsely charge me with such.

Actually, the only one that has justified such use of language is you…as long as a Catholic uses it “accurately.”

Though so long as guys like you come along with descriptions of our most holy faith as “dangerous false doctrine”, an offensive statement to begin with, then guys like me and my Catholic brothers and sisters here at CAF and other good Catholic forums will continue to step up.

Ahhh. I see.

So us “heretics” in our “sects” teach “dangerous false doctrine” and that is OK because a Catholic says so and it is “accurate.”

But if a non-Catholic believes the same about Catholicism then they are suddenly “offensive.”

Like I said, I totally understand your position now.

…

 

[Church_Militant]

Well then, we seem to be in remarkable agreement…then the question stands, can Catholicism be just another denomination? I’d like to think so, then all the theology and philosophizing I do would move from being salvation-critical to “one man sharpens another”… I’d like to think this is the case…once again, there is a problem…Your pope isn’t helping. According to him, the Roman Catholic Church is the only church, and us mere protestants are “false churches,” according to a recent document the vatican released.

That’s not new. It’s in that Catechism that you already have and has not changed in 2,000 years. It had little application to Christians until the so-called Reformation.

In fact, probably the biggest reason why Catholics get a lot of heat, as opposed to the freindly discussions among protestants is that at the Church level (i.e. the Vatican) there is great intolerance for the protestants.

That is not true. However, even at the street level, Catholics are now learning their faith better with with the ever increasing number of converts from other Christian communities there is a great movement from the Holy Spirit that has brought many of us to the fore in the defense and explanation of the Catholic faith.

Yes, the Catholic Church considers n-C Christians to be in doctrinal error, but that has been the case for about 500 years. There are differences between what we believe and what n-Cs believe, but many n-Cs act like their beliefs have been around from the days of Our Lord and the apostles, and that my friend is verifiably not the case at all at all. The fact is that most of the n-C teachings are new winds of modern doctrine that cannot be found in the earliest writings of the early church.

Which is odd really, because at the same time, JPII was unusually willing to reach out to other faiths, hindus, muslims, etc. and while he didn’t say they were perfectly valid, he said they “pointed to the spiritual nature of man” and commended them for their accomplishments.

I would suggest that the Holy Father was reaching out to them under the influence of the Holy Spirit, because they need Christians to reach out to them at this time in history.

How about us protestants? did we get commended for our stalwart dedication to finding better interpretations of the bible

? no, we get slammed, thrown out, and told we are a “false church.” Once again, why is this?as I said before…doctrinal error.

because hindus and muslims will say to the Catholic Church, “you have your deal, we have ours,” where as the protestants say “we have our deal, its actually your deal, but without you” and we face rejection. I wish we could just accept there are differences, but that we will all see one another in heaven.

I think that’s a generalization and a gross oversimplification of the whole situation, not to mention it is not true…as you’ll soon see if you poke around in the Non-Catholic Religions forums you’ll soon see what I mean with respect to the Muslims, Jews, and others.
[SIGN]Welcome to CAF![/SIGN]

 

[Randy_Carson]

Your pope isn’t helping. According to him, the Roman Catholic Church is the only church, and us mere protestants are “false churches,” according to a recent document the vatican released.

Actually, he is your pope, too, since he is head of the universal Church.

And I don’t think he said you are members of “false churches”, did he? I think what he said is that your “faith communities” are not Churches in the true sense of the word…I’d have to double-check.

Finally, he did not say that the Catholic Church is the only Church; we recognize the Orthodox and a handful of others who have maintained valid apostolic sucession.

Hope this helps. :tiphat:

 

[Atemi]

You can’t change these people. They are so deeply convinced that they are right and that you are headed straight to hell in a handbasket.

You’re right.

You can’t change these people.

I had a Catholic recently tell me I was the son of the Devil and still in my sins, headed to perdition. Folks like him are so convinced they are right.

Yes. You can’t change these people…

 

[Afterburned6387]

The exact quote is
“According to Catholic doctrine, these Communities do not enjoy apostolic succession in the sacrament of Orders, and are, therefore, deprived of a constitutive element of the Church. These ecclesial Communities which, specifically because of the absence of the sacramental priesthood, have not preserved the genuine and integral substance of the Eucharistic Mystery[19] cannot, according to Catholic doctrine, be called “Churches” in the proper sense”
vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_20070629_responsa-quaestiones_en.html

If we are not part of the Catholic Church, If we cannot enjoy the Eucharist/Lord’s Supper legitimately, then how can we be saved? in the Catholic sense? Especially if the statement reiterated throughout church history is correct, that “There is no salvation outside of the Church” (meaning the RCC)

Also, I would ask for any scriptural evidence for the existence of a sacramental preisthood after the second testament.

and no, he is not my Pope, the head of my church is the Living Christ himself!

I do want to make one thing perfectly clear though, I DO NOT think all catholics are going to hell, in fact I only think the vast majority are, just as I feel the vast majority of my fellow protestants face the same fate. after all, we live in a country where we aren’t persecuted, so what is there to weed out those who do not hold fast to the faith?

I would encourage all Catholics to pursue God, to put their faith first and foremost in Christ, and not the Church, to make their relationship to God personal, and if you still insist in taking part in all the sacrements, I find no fault in your faith.

 

[Church_Militant]

To all

I can assure all posters here that I’m not here to debate. I have learned a very long time ago those who are x-Catholics do not go on Catholic forums because they are not welcomed or must not engage in any forum of debating

. I see that Kotten has already made some claims about my Forum but somehow failed to list any of those points here that he claims I’m in error on.

Anyway thanks and have a great day…That is complete bunkum as far as CAF is concerned.

Here are links to the Forum Rules and Banned Topics Policy that these forums function under and I defy you to find a single hint that ex-Catholics are unwelcome or not allowed to debate. In fact we have several such people here even now and many of them have been members for quite some time and although the heat gets up on both sides from time to time, they’re still here and welcome, regardless of their disagreements.

Now, having looked over your board. I will point out that some that rhetoric and vitriol would not be allowed here, but that is because of it’s offensive and inflammatory nature than the factual disagreements.

 

[Atemi]

Actually, he is your pope, too, since he is head of the universal Church.

LOL, no.

The head of the church I know is Jesus Christ Himself. I do not believe the Body of Christ has two heads.

Also, my “Holy Father” is all powerful and reigns sovereignly in Heaven over all creation.

 

[KathleenElsie]

Before I join any organization (internet or other) I ask if they accept Catholics as Christians. I don’t tell them I am Catholic when I ask for the information and many of them let me know it is safe to join as they don’t allow Catholics if they know they are Catholic. LOL

I then “wash the dust from my feet” (or fingers ) and leave the discussion to them.

 

[Abira]

Before I join any organization (internet or other) I ask if they accept Catholics as Christians. I don’t tell them I am Catholic when I ask for the information and many of them let me know it is safe to join as they don’t allow Catholics if they know they are Catholic. LOL

I then “wash the dust from my feet” (or fingers ) and leave the discussion to them.

I don’t understand how they can think that… as many prejudices as i mentioned i had earlier in the thread …I would never have called a Roman Catholic anything other than Christian.

 

[Ani_Ibi]

1. Get baptized, preferably as an Infant (Sacrament of Baptism)
2. Get confirmed, I think around age 13’ish (Sacrament of Confirmation)
2. Try to live a good life, avoid sin, but if you commit a sin knowingly (mortal sin) as opposed to on accident (venial sin), you have lost your salvation, and now must go confess to a preist to get it back, along with some kind of penance (Sacrament of Penance)
3. To atone for your venial sin, you must participate in the Masses (Sacrament of the Eucharist)
4. When you die, you still don’t get to go to Heaven, you must go through purgatory and be cleansed of your remaining sinful ways before you enter heaven
5. Heaven exists forever, there is no resurrection (Symbolic Amillennialism)

How much of this do you understand? If a vulnerable young person were to ask you right now to explain the things you have listed, would you feel confident about explaining them accurately with no fears at all about misrepresenting any of them? Yes or no please. Please do not dodge the question. Thank you.

continued…

 

[Ani_Ibi]

Afterburned6387:

First of all, is this not the most self-absorbed religion I’ve ever heard of?

Strong condemnation for someone investigating what the Church actually teaches.

Afterburned6387:

one sacrament after another to secure one’s own salvation, sounds like a lot of work

Were you expecting it to be easy? Whatever your answer is, let me tell you, it is not easy. Even just being the butt of constant anti-Catholic proselytizing alone is not easy.

Afterburned6387:

and here’s the big catch. The church is the central player in it all, you confess to the church, you are baptized by the church, etc. etc. etc.

That would make us Jesus-absorbed, not self-absorbed. For it is Jesus who gave us the Church.

continued…

 

[Ani_Ibi]

Afterburned6387:

It seems to me that not only is Protestant Eternal Security much more biblically accurate (once again, another time)

No, now would be good, not ‘another time’. If you make a claim you should be ready to back that claim up with evidence. I am sure you would not expect us to simply accept what you say on face value, would you?

Afterburned6387:

, but provides far more freedom to go and serve God in the hardest places of the world, far from any church parish, because your personal salvation is taken care of, you get to go serve in freedom.

It is occurs to me from what you are saying here that perhaps you have much to learn about the width, height, and depth of Catholic charities out in the world caring for the sick, homeless, hungry of the world.

Afterburned6387:

So what about this scares me about rank-and-file Catholics? Simply, it is entirely possible to go through every sacrament the church has to offer, and completely miss the most important thing that saves you, a genuine faith that brings repentance, and a repentance of Love, not Duty.

The exception does not negate the rule. Surely you are not suggesting that it is not possible to sit in a pew in a Protestant church and have zero faith? Are you proposing a double standard? One rule for yourself and another rule for Catholics? If so, then fair enough. 'Know why? Because we hold ourselves to a higher standard. From those to whom much has been given, much is expected.

continued…