Why do some Protestants hate us so much?

[Joero]

I fully understand why this particular thread being posted is a sort of provocative in its sense. One’s attention whether catholics or non-catholics, out of curiosity, would try to peep in to know what’s going on. Maybe there are lacking words suppose to be added on this thread so that it goes like this (…of their love for our salvation ?). Well, I am not wishing to change this thread, just let it go ! Don’t you understand, catholics, that the non-catholics would like to save us from which they believe we are on the error side of things. Is it not good ?

 

[Ani_Ibi]

"Ani Ibi:

And I do not totally understand your position because you make claims without telling us what specific things you are talking about. Do you want people to be able to understand what you are saying? If so, please give us enough information to see what it is you are talking about. OK? Thank you.

Read rest of the thread, Ibi.

I have read the rest of the thread, Mr Atemi. I don’t see what reading the rest of the thread has to do with providing information in a post about what it is that post is referring to. If you do not what us to know to what you are referring when you make your claim then your claim does not stand. Simple communication.

Oh, and it’s Ms Ibi or Ani, not Ibi. OK? Thank you.

 

[Ani_Ibi]

I personally do not assume anyone is a Christian…Catholic or otherwise.

Even over 80% of Americans say they are “Christian.” I surely do not take them at their word…

I don’t understand: who are you to judge? Could you explain please? Thank you.

 

[tomarin]

It is no great leap to say that many catholics do not participate in the sacraments out of Love or Worship, but out of familial duty.

yes there are lukewarm catholics out there, but it is a huge leap to assume that that wishy-washyness somehow characterizes the church or renders our sacraments null and void. we believe the sacraments bestow god’s grace on those who receive them provided they are properly disposed to do so. this is supremely true of “the blessed sacrament”, the eucharist, which unites us with jesus and the church and all of its members throughout time and space.

in fact as i’m writing this i’m realizing that our sacraments are not actually “rituals” at all as the word is commonly understood, because they possess awesome power. if they are “rituals” at all they are efficacious rituals and therefore in a special category all to themselves. as i said before to be valid the participant must be properly disposed. but the power of the “ritual” comes from god himself and so as far as we’re concerned has an objective source. it’s not just a bit of play-acting. to trivialize it is to trivialize god himself.

it is also true that at the heart of the sacraments is a mystery that can never be fully explained or revealed. you can spend a lifetime trying to “get at” this mystery and never drink it dry. in my experience my understanding of the eucharist deepens a little bit more each time i partake of it (or to be more accurate, it deepens in unpredictable fits and starts). but i fully expect to spend the rest of my life getting at the heart of it, and that’s something joyous to look forward to.

i bring this up because it’s another aspect of one’s inability to look at a congregation and presume to know what’s in the heart of each and every person worshipping in the church. some may just be starting to grasp the true meaning of the eucharist after many years of “going through the motions”. others are there just for familial reasons as you say. to me these are like people living on property on which is buried a hidden treasure. they need something to open their eyes as to the existence of this treasure they are sitting on, but that’s probably up to god.

i’m grateful to you for posting here, and i’m grateful to this forum for giving us an opportunity to exchange views. i would encourage you to keep trying to meet us halfway, so that at least your understanding of catholicism can deepen and you can begin to grasp what it is like from the vantage of an “insider”. because regardless of who has the “correct” interpretation here, we natives don’t regard it the same the way an outsider does.

Thanks for hearing me out!

anytime, my friend.

 

[Ani_Ibi]

Afterburned6387:

Wow, I really made some folks angry, I must be doing something right.

I am not sure to what you are referring. What leads you to think that you made some folks angry?



If it is your goal to come onto this forum and provoke folks instead of engage them in friendly ecumenical discussion, then I guess – in your mind – you might occasionally get something right. Tell me something, Mr Afterburned: WWJD? What would Jesus do?

Afterburned6387:

Here’s another one particularly addressed at Ani Ibi: How dare you call yourselves “persecuted!” you do not face imprisonment, confiscation of property, denial of basic rights, execution or torture.

This sort of language is inappropriate for friendly discussion. May I ask you please if you would be kind enough to restrain your tone and refrain from browbeating us in future? Thank you ever so much.

As for being persecuted: there are different ways of being persecuted, would you not agree?

1. Having to – on a daily basis – listen to uninformed, rage-driven damaging falsehoods about Church teachings spread in the media, on the internet, and sometimes bellowed in the streets with no remorse and no willingness to be corrected. Since I do not see non-Catholics being treated in this way then, yes, this is discrimatory and therefore a violation of our basic rights.
2. Witnessing the banning of the display of the Cross, the Holy Family, and all other religious symbols in my neighbourhood against our Constitution. Witnessing never-ending attemps to ban Christmas trees from public places against our Constitution. Again discriminatory and therefore a violation of our basic rights.
3. Seeing an official rip an image of the Crucifixion into pieces and then hold up another image of the Crucifixion at a public meeting. Again discriminatory and therefore a violation of our basic rights.
4. Seeing Catholics lose their jobs and businesses because they practice Church teaching. Again discriminatory and therefore a violation of our basic rights.
5. Seeing the erosion of the Constitutional right of Ontarians to Catholic education. Again discriminatory and therefore a violation of our basic rights.
6. Being subjected – on a daily basis – to public humiliation by folks who know close to zero (the poor souls) about Catholicism. Harrassment and therefore a violation of our basic rights.
7. Seeing Catholic teaching marginalized in a country (Canada) in which the majority are Catholic. Again discriminatory and therefore a violation of our basic rights.
8. Seeing a leftist organization threaten a Catholic friend of mine for defending Catholic teaching on abortion and for whistleblowing on a prominent politician for shunting public funds to a website publishing hate propaganda against Catholics. Discrimatory and criminal and therefore a violation of our basic rights.

Mr Afterburned,

anti-Catholicism
is the last acceptable prejudice.

continued…

 

[Ani_Ibi]

Afterburned6387:

Pick up a book on martyrology

May I suggest that you pick up a book on persecution, Mr Afterburned? Perhaps before the next time you decide to say “How dare you [fill in the blank]”?

Afterburned6387:

, see how those who truly would contend for the faith were treated.

I am well aware of the fate of the martyrs. The Catholic Church was built on the blood of the martyrs. Tertullian said that “these Christian martyrs are like seed: where one falls, ten more spring up.”

Afterburned6387:

Being called a few names, or maybe looked at as being a little weird fall far short of the historical norm for “persecuted”

Again, Mr Afterburned, this only exposes your quickness to judge and your slowness to find out anything about what you are judging. Is this sort of behaviour Biblical? WWJD? Perhaps it would be useful for you to ask more questions and do more listening. Why not give it a try? It can’t hurt.

Afterburned6387:

It is the height of vanity to be upset because the name of Christ caused you to have fewer friends, or people to disagree with you at parties, or gosh, question your beliefs.

Who are you to judge the vanity of another person? You presume much, Mr Afterburned. I am really quite astonished.

Afterburned6387:

Look to your own first popes! they were persecuted, Peter was even crucified upside down!

Thank you for bringing this to light.

Afterburned6387:

Any American on this forum better not be complaining of persecution!

Oh, Mr Afterburned, how deeply you fall into your own traps. Better not to set those traps in the first place, wouldn’t you think? I am Canadian, not American.

Don’t you think straightforward discussion is far more productive than the uninformed lecturing you have been offering us so far? I am sure that, if you were to approach folks here in a humble way, seeking answers and working toward common understanding rather than trying to convert us by means of strawmen and browbeating, you would learn some worldchanging things about the Church which Jesus established.

end of post

 

[Ani_Ibi]

Afterburned6387:

Well then, we seem to be in remarkable agreement…then the question stands, can Catholicism be just another denomination?

No. She is the Church which Jesus established: the Church from which the 30 000 denominations split off.

Afterburned6387:

I’d like to think so

No doubt. But thinking so and knowing so are two different things.

Afterburned6387:

, then all the theology and philosophizing I do would move from being salvation-critical to “one man sharpens another”…

How? Please explain. Thank you.

By the way, Mr Afterburned, there is quite a substantial number of questions which you have not yet answered. I thought this was a discussion which would mean that communication is two-way (as opposed to one-way from where you stand). I am wondering if you would be kind enough to answer the questions we have asked you? Thank you.

 

[Ani_Ibi]

Afterburned6387:

It is no great leap to say that many catholics do not participate in the sacraments out of Love or Worship, but out of familial duty.

It is a huge leap for a person to make when he/she has no evidence to support such a leap. Kind of like jumping out of a plane without a parachute. Who would do such a thing?



In any case, how would you know the private disposition of a person’s heart? I thought this was only for God to know. How have you come by the power to judge a persons’ heart, Mr Afterburned? Please do not dodge this question.

 

[Ani_Ibi]

tomarin:

i bring this up because it’s another aspect of one’s inability to look at a congregation and presume to know what’s in the heart of each and every person worshipping in the church.

Correct, but then you say this:

tomarin:

some may just be starting to grasp the true meaning of the eucharist after many years of “going through the motions”. others are there just for familial reasons as you say.

If we are not to judge another’s heart, then how is this second statement justified?

The Eucharist is such a holy and personal experience that I am thunderstruck that anyone would want to look at the folks going up and coming back and place them on a scale of worthiness. None of us are worthy. None. For all have fallen short of the glory of the Lord.

Yet the Lord gives us the gift of Absolution and the gift of the Eucharist.

Now, a bishop may decide that the Eucharist is to be withheld from certain folks who have chosen scandal over communion. But who here on this thread is a bishop? Anyone?

 

[tomarin]

If we are not to judge another’s heart, then how is this second statement justified?

all i’m saying is that there are and have always been (well since the time of constantine at least) “cultural” catholics who are going along for the ride without firmly subscribing to all of the church’s teachings, or in some cases giving them the weight that they are due. i think it would be silly to deny that this is the case while at the same time i don’t think the existence of such people makes the eucharist an “empty ritual” by any means.

actually i try to refrain from judging the few people i know who might fit into this category, based on the candid discussions i’ve had with them. that’s why i likened them to a person sitting on property in which treasure is buried.

i’m aware that not everyone has their spiritual eyes open for whatever reason – most of my adult life i haven’t either. in my case my eyes were opened for some mysterious reason and i recognized the catholic church for what it is – my spiritual home. i’m so grateful for that awareness and for that reason i try to show some compassion for others who may not have been as lucky as me.

as you say i’m not a bishop and i wouldn’t dream of denying anyone communion. however if someone is sincere they will try to follow the church’s rules about being properly disposed before receiving the eucharist. if i knew someone who was unsure about whether they were properly disposed i would refer them to a priest. (there’s no point in receiving it if one isn’t properly disposed because it renders the sacrament invalid for that person, as well as offending god as paul teaches us).

i think you’re reading something into my post which is not there. i’m sorry if what i wrote offended you but i don’t know where the offense lies.

 

[Ani_Ibi]

tomarin:

…if i knew someone who was unsure about whether they were properly disposed i would refer them to a priest…

Me too.

tomarin:

i think you’re reading something into my post which is not there.

No. I am being cautious about language. Communication is not a one-way street. It is a give and take – what we have just done, for example.

tomarin:

i’m sorry if what i wrote offended you but i don’t know where the offense lies.

There was no offence. I was just being careful about language. It is one thing to say something which another Catholic understands. To say the same thing to a non-Catholic may invite misunderstanding because the non-Catholic may not have the basics under his/her belt.

This is actually a common problem on forums. That non-Catholics are terribly worried about the Big Questions, but rarely know enough about the basics in order to be able to begin addressing those questions. CAF Library is a good place to go for the basics.

 

[tomarin]

I was just being careful about language. It is one thing to say something which another Catholic understands. To say the same thing to a non-Catholic may invite misunderstanding because the non-Catholic may not have the basics under his/her belt.

okay, i see where you’re coming from. i also hope my comments didn’t give you the impression that during mass i’m sitting in a pew and trying to figure out what’s in the heads and hearts of the people sitting next to me. this is definitely not the case!

 

[Ani_Ibi]

okay, i see where you’re coming from. i also hope my comments didn’t give you the impression that during mass i’m sitting in a pew and trying to figure out what’s in the heads and hearts of the people sitting next to me. this is definitely not the case!

No. I did not have that impression.

 

[twosweetgirls]

I was just looking through the last few pages, and though Afterburned sent me a charitable PM, it looks like he’s bugged out. Sad; another hit and run.

 

[bklynbrat]

I was just looking through the last few pages, and though Afterburned sent me a charitable PM, it looks like he’s bugged out. **Sad; another hit and run. **>>>>>

this cracks me up. why is it that some protestants come to these boards, make accusations, shown time & time again that what they post/think is wrong, then never heard from again? they tuck tail & run.

there’s no “oh i see”, or “now i get it”, they just bow out…

 

[twosweetgirls]

No kidding. I was looking at his post count, and wondered if he was a hit and run at first. I think from now on when there’s a poster like that with only a handful of posts who starts in on Catholics, I’ll be very inclined to think they’re a hit and run.

Anyone got a blinkie or emoticon for that?

 

[twosweetgirls]

This will work just fine for me. Feel free to use at will!

 

[Afterburned6387]

Lol, I’m not a hit and run, but I just really didn’t see this discussion going anywhere, its just a circular argument, so I moved over to some of the other postes on Transubstantiation, and the Preisthood, because I thought I might actually get to discuss something useful

As for the martyrdom statement, I still hold to it, Furthermore, shouldn’t you be rejoicing in your sufferings? Per James 1:2? besides, it still seems absurd to me for anyone in the western civilized world to complain about “persecution” After all, no one is getting burned at the stake anymore

 

[whatevergirl]

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/194/503672977_558faf4e11.jpg
This will work just fine for me. Feel free to use at will!

 

[whatevergirl]

Lol, I’m not a hit and run, but I just really didn’t see this discussion going anywhere, its just a circular argument, so I moved over to some of the other postes on Transubstantiation, and the Preisthood, because I thought I might actually get to discuss something useful

As for the martyrdom statement, I still hold to it, Furthermore, shouldn’t you be rejoicing in your sufferings? Per James 1:2? besides, it still seems absurd to me for anyone in the western civilized world to complain about “persecution” After all, no one is getting burned at the stake anymore

You never answered my post. Anyways…I have always looked at the Catholic faith as being the fullness of the faith. If someone never went to church a day in his/her life, and followed Christ…was chartiable…asked God for forgiveness of sins, etc…but never became Catholic–would they find salvation? According to our Pope, absolutely possible for anyone to have salvation–because Jesus died for us…and God is all merciful. But, the RCC offers people the fullness of the faith. Not a taste like the Protestant faith. Not mere lectures and some singing, but participation is required at mass. The crux of mass revolves around the body and blood of Christ–His most important covenant God made with man. There’s something rich and beautiful about that, to me, anyways.