Why do some stay in the Catholic Church while seeming to hate the Church with all their being?

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Why do some stay in the Catholic Church while seeming to hate the Church with all their being? Then in the first post it defines the differences of those ‘bad’ Catholics and those ‘model Catholics.’

It’s innuendo at the least, and goading at it’s worse, in my honest opinion. Then of course it’s viewed in light of other threads, and posts.
It’s a valid question that has everything to do with logic and nothing to do with emotion. People keep wanting to pull it down to an emotional argument and away from any rational discussion. By the way, in the Church there are those who are model Catholics. Sometimes they become canonized as saints. 🙂
 
Here you go again, erroneously accusing others of what you yourself are doing.

Can you not see the difference between 1. my committing adultery and 2. my complaining to all who will listen that the Church calls adultery a sin?

Can you not see the difference between someone who says The Church teaches X is a sin and someone who says, Well, the Church says X is a sin, but I think X is ok and the Church should support those people *in their sin. *
Sin is sin. The motivations behind qualifications is suspect to some people, who would not place themselves in that position. Either sin is not ‘ok’ with the Church, irregardless of what some actually say, and what others say that they say. Christ said the gates of hell shall not prevail against His Church. Why do some people feel it necessary to call out others over their sins, especially in light of the fact that we all sin?
 
It’s a valid question that has everything to do with logic and nothing to do with emotion. People keep wanting to pull it down to an emotional argument and away from any rational discussion. 🙂
Maybe some of us have seen other ‘rational discussions’ with similar themes of more righteousness is mine. :rolleyes:
 
Why do some stay in the Catholic Church while seeming to hate the Church with all their being? Then in the first post it defines the differences of those ‘bad’ Catholics and those ‘model Catholics.’

It’s innuendo at the least, and goading at it’s worse, in my honest opinion. Then of course it’s viewed in light of other threads, and posts.
Not at all. She si asking why certain people stay in the Church. She is saying nothing about *other *people at all. She is simply using the English language and normal thought processes to ask a question about one group of people.
 
Not at all. She si asking why certain people stay in the Church. She is saying nothing about *other *people at all. She is simply using the English language and normal thought processes to ask a question about one group of people.
Just want to let people know that I’m not a she but a he. 🙂
 
Sin is sin. The motivations behind qualifications is suspect to some people, who would not place themselves in that position. Either sin is not ‘ok’ with the Church, irregardless of what some actually say, and what others say that they say. Christ said the gates of hell shall not prevail against His Church. Why do some people feel it necessary to call out others over their sins, especially in light of the fact that we all sin?
Because the effects are not all equal. If one sins, accepts that and repents that is one thing. If one sins, says it is not a sin, and teaches others to sin or fall away from the faith that is another thing altogether.
 
Because the effects are not all equal. If one sins, accepts that and repents that is one thing. If one sins, says it is not a sin, and teaches others to sin or fall away from the faith that is another thing altogether.
And Jesus gives us a strong hint in Matthew 18:6 that there is a special torment in hell for those who die unrepentant for the sin of scandal. I don’t want to see that happen to people, and that’s why I’m trying to help expose the danger of this. 🙂
 
That is not a Catholic understanding of sin. That’s why the Catholic Church distinguishes between the different kinds of sins and their varying seriousness. 🙂
You are arguing semantics. I am open to correction if you tell me exactly what sins the Church approves of? :rolleyes:
 
Not at all. She si asking why certain people stay in the Church. She is saying nothing about *other *people at all. She is simply using the English language and normal thought processes to ask a question about one group of people.
Then you ignore the distinction that all Catholics are not like that with references to ‘model Catholics.’ That gives an impression of ‘more righteous.’
 
Because the effects are not all equal. If one sins, accepts that and repents that is one thing. If one sins, says it is not a sin, and teaches others to sin or fall away from the faith that is another thing altogether.
Right, but please share what sin the Church approves of? There isn’t any.
 
You are arguing semantics. I am open to correction if you tell me exactly what sins the Church approves of? :rolleyes:
I didn’t say that the Church approves of a sin. And actually, that’s what the OP is about. It’s about when people say that the Church is wrong for not approving of their favorite sins. But the Church doesn’t say “sin is sin”. In fact, the Church teaches about various degrees of sin. Even with mortal sins some are more serious than others. 🙂
 
And Jesus gives us a strong hint in Matthew 18:6 that there is a special torment in hell for those who die unrepentant for the sin of scandal. I don’t want to see that happen to people, and that’s why I’m trying to help expose the danger of this. 🙂
He also gives more than a hint in reference to judging other…
 
And you judged me, though with a straw man argument. So what’s your point? 🙂
You use the accusation to silence anyone speaking in opposition. I have not judged anyone as ‘hating’ the Church, in general terms. I have not judged you, even though I find your actions suspect and would not place myself in that position. If you feel called to defend Christ, by all means you’re obligated to do so. I’d just make sure it was a calling from him and not something of myself.
 
In my experience there are several reasons why people ‘stay,’ and why people while seeming to ‘hate’ the Church.

The first point I would make is the definition of the term ‘Church.’ Is the definition of ‘Church’ is the teachings of the Church, Church clerics and the institutions of the Church? People may dislike and have objections to these features of the Church, but these are features are not the only features the Church possess. The ‘Church’ is in fact all of us - the body of Christ.

Just because someone does not like or has objections to certain teachings, clerics and the institutions of the Church does not mean they have rejected God, and it doesn’t mean they reject everything the Church teaches. I’m quite sure I don’t need to outline the scandals in Ireland, and it is a big reason why people have lost faith in the Church. (Church as defined above) It cannot be said that no matter what people in the church do we should not loose faith in the church in my view places greater responsibility on those the people and less on church leaders when it should be the other way around as they are more responsible before God. I say this because Jesus said we may as well have a millstone placed around our necks than cause a ‘little one’ to loose faith. Can we really a merciful God expects us to keep faith in people who cause so much hurt? To say God appointment them is in my view a hollow argument. Jesus chose Judas. We are not obliged to keep faith in people when they themselves demonstrate their lack of it.

I have heard many people today say, ‘I didn’t choose my religion, it was chosen for me and I had no say in it.’ Let’s be honest, they have a point. Like you, I am a convert to the Catholic faith and maybe this is one of the reasons I can understand why people may feel resentful in being coerced into following a faith they did not choose. To say, ‘well they are free to leave - but they will answer to God’ - is not really giving them the freedom to choose but rather a conditional choice, which is not really a choice. In the Prodigal Son, the father gave his son the freedom to choose with no conditions. He never gave up hope he would come back and in the end he did.

My eldest son is preparing for the Confirmation, and he’s really confused because he says he does not know what to believe. As his mother, I have the responsibility of guiding him but I think expecting an 11 year old to never change their mind about anything they believe is unrealistic and places an unreasonably high burden on them. In short, I explained things by saying sometimes you have to do something in order to know whether or not you believe in it. I won’t go into any more detail as this is turning out to be an incredibly long post. Apologies.

The other reason people in my part of the world ‘stay’ is because being Catholic is intrinsically linked to one’s identity, and people don’t want to loose that. While they may criticize Catholicism, they don’t want to be someone or something else. I have also found when you talk to them, deep down they still believe most of it. It has also been suggested by catholic educators that what has been termed the ‘critic’ stage is a stage of faith development, and a necessary one in order to truly embrace a faith of your own free will and not just because that’s what you were raised. People who emerge from the ‘critic’ often have a deeper sense of spirituality. Perhaps the church is going through a ‘critic’ stage as a whole as we live in very confusing times.

On a final note, I once asked a priest many questions on the Catholic faith and asked him how long it would take to understand what the Church on these issues. His answer was - a lifetime.
Wow this thread sure exploded last night. I wanted to thank you for the above which actually addresses the OP’s question. I think you make some great points, in that people may disagree about certain teachings…even some of the most important of them…but still believe most of what the Church teaches and stands for. Also the “Cultural Catholic” while not as common in USA as in other countries thought to be “Catholic” countries is a factor.

I see this like cultural Jews who never attend synagoue, don’t celebrate Shabbos, wouldn’t be seen dead wearing a kippah but claim they are Jews…OK…that’s apparently their cultural or ethnic identity rather than a religion.

I have a dear friend, cradle Catholic of Irish heritage with Catholics in her family tree for generations. She went to Catholic school and self identifies as Catholic. But she thinks there should be women priests, doesn’t accept the Church’s teaching on divorce (she’s had four I think) and only attends Mass on Christmas Eve. But I agree, she will never formally leave the Church and always identifies as Catholic. When I converted she was somewhat aghast and couldn’t understand why I’d choose to be Catholic…go figure. But eight years later and she now says she appreciates my devotion to the Church.

I guess for some it’s like disowning your family even f you no longer attend famly functions and or stay in contact.

Lisa
 
You use the accusation to silence anyone speaking in opposition. I have not judged anyone as ‘hating’ the Church, in general terms. I have not judged you, even though I find your actions suspect and would not place myself in that position. If you feel called to defend Christ, by all means you’re obligated to do so. I’d just make sure it was a calling from him and not something of myself.
Would you also deny that Westboro Baptists hate anyone? Or would you say we shouldn’t judge them either? 🙂
 
There are many in the Church today who are similar to those who walked away, and would follow Christ no longer. Included in that category are some who still come to Mass … still receive Holy Communion. You might wonder: How can that be … if one comes to Mass… and receives Holy Communion? Isn’t that following Christ…isn’t that being His disciple?
To come to Jesus, to accept Him in the deepest sense, it is not enough to receive Him sacramentally, for one can receive Him in Holy Communion and not accept His word in its entirety. We must accept not just most of what the Church teaches as divinely revealed, but all of it. Let us suppose I tell someone about five incidents that happened to me on a trip (all of which are true), and this person says to me: “I believe the first four, but I can’t believe the fifth.” The fact that he will not believe one of the incidents related - in spite of my word as to its truth - means he no longer believes I always tell the truth. My credibility (for him) is shattered.
We have a parallel to this in regard to the Church. Christ still speaks through His Church when it makes official pronouncements in faith and morals for all the faithful, declaring something to be divinely revealed. If an adult Catholic rejects just one of those official teachings, that in effect is saying: “The Church cannot always be relied on to teach the true interpretation of God’s revelation.” What happens, in that case, to the gift of divine faith? It is no longer one’s guiding light. St. Thomas Aquinas spoke of this centuries ago:
“If, of those things taught by the Church (as divinely revealed), one holds what he chooses to hold, and rejects what he chooses to reject, he no longer adheres to the teaching of the Church as an infallible guide, but to his own will.” Such a one may accept other teachings of the Church, but he does so not out of divine faith, but “only by a kind of opinion in accordance with his own will.” (II II,5,3)

CAFETERIA CATHOLICS
 
Would you also deny that Westboro Baptists hate anyone? Or would you say we shouldn’t judge them either? 🙂
This is another subject you once brought up, comparing Westboro Baptists and an unnamed group of homosexuals, as ‘haters.’ I told you then, and still believe, that if we’re not careful, we fall into comparison with their ‘actions.’

No, we are not to judge anyone. We are to judge actions, but we cannot see the intent of a person’s heart, and how it will be judged by Christ’s mercy.

You’ve spoke on people ‘hating’ the Church, but in general terms. When using general terms we have to be on guard not to use ‘speculation.’
 
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