Why do some stay in the Catholic Church while seeming to hate the Church with all their being?

[livingwordunity]

We are called to help people to the love of Christ. If we don’t use love, the love of Christ is not recognizable in the message we convey.

I didn’t criticize anyone who doesn’t hate the Catholic Church. How is asking why someone hates the Catholic Church being unloving?

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

I didn’t criticize anyone who doesn’t hate the Catholic Church. How is asking why someone hates the Catholic Church being unloving?

How do you know they ‘hate’ the Church? For whatever reason, they keep coming back to her.

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

I didn’t criticize anyone who doesn’t hate the Catholic Church. How is asking why someone hates the Catholic Church being unloving?

Why do some stay in the Church while seeming to hate the Church with all their being? It speaks for itself, in my honest opinion, and doesn’t express a desire for them to continue coming back.

 

[livingwordunity]

How do you know they ‘hate’ the Church? For whatever reason, they keep coming back to her.

If they don’t hate the Catholic Church then the OP isn’t about them. For example, if I said “adultery is a sin”, and someone says “I resent that statement” do they not call out themselves?

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

If they don’t hate the Catholic Church then the OP isn’t about them.

That doesn’t answer the question. How do you know they ‘hate’ the Church, even though they keep coming back? Your answer only ‘assumes’ they hate the Church, based on your assumption.

 

[livingwordunity]

That doesn’t answer the question. How do you know they ‘hate’ the Church, even though they keep coming back? Your answer only ‘assumes’ they hate the Church, based on your assumption.

Jesus said that there would be people who hate the Church because of Him. That’s how I know that there are people such as this in existence. If I said “adultery is a sin”, and someone says “I resent that statement” do they not call out themselves?

 

[St_Francis]

One must judge to state an assurance of understanding wholly.

The question in itself states they are wrong, and the poster goes on from ‘seeming’ to hate, to hate. The question is confirmed as a condemnation when ‘model Catholics’ are offered up as example of how the others should be.

We are free for ourselves only. We cannot presuppose the disposition of others, when it counts. We are not all equal, of intellect, knowledge, wisdom, guidance, piety, strength of faith, or fear of the Lord even.

How we offer ‘fraternal correction’ is important. We cannot use less than love and charity, to draw someone to the truth of love and charity. We cannot use offensive language, accusatory tones, be condescending, or anything else that is less than required of all believers.

I have explained how we should approach others, number one by thanking God that others with faults come to His Church, the place of correction. I have condemned any innuendos, or insinuations, that can push people away, as well as portraying a self righteousness above others.

We are called to help people to the love of Christ. If we don’t use love, the love of Christ is not recognizable in the message we convey.

Prodigal Son, you really crack me up

 

[St_Francis]

You overlooked a question I asked you.

What is your suggestion for people who possibly really do ‘hate’ the Church?

You overllooked a question I asked you three times…

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

Jesus said that there would be people who hate the Church for His sake. That’s how I know that there are people such as this in existence. If I said “adultery is a sin”, and someone says “I resent that statement” do they not call out themselves?

You’re assuming the reason behind them resenting a statement. It does not show that they ‘hate’ the Church. Those who really hate the Church do not come to it.

Rom 14:10 But thou, why judgest thou thy brother? Or thou, why dost thou despise thy brother? For we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ.
Rom 14:11 For it is written: As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me and every tongue shall confess to God.
Rom 14:12 Therefore every one of us shall render account to God for himself.
Rom 14:13 Let us not therefore judge one another any more. But judge this rather, that you put not a stumblingblock or a scandal in your brother’s way.
Rom 14:14 I know, and am confident in the Lord Jesus, that nothing is unclean of itself: but to him that esteemeth any thing to be unclean, to him it is unclean.
Rom 14:15 For if, because of thy meat, thy brother be grieved, thou walkest not now according to charity. Destroy not him with thy meat, for whom Christ died.
Rom 14:16 Let not then our good be evil spoken of.
Rom 14:17 For the kingdom of God is not meat and drink: but justice and peace and joy in the Holy Ghost.
Rom 14:18 For he that in this serveth Christ pleaseth God and is approved of men.
Rom 14:19 Therefore, let us follow after the things that are of peace and keep the things that are of edification, one towards another.
Rom 14:20 Destroy not the work of God for meat. All things indeed are clean: but it is evil for that man who eateth with offence.
Rom 14:21 It is good not to eat flesh and not to drink wine: nor any thing whereby thy brother is offended or scandalized or made weak.
Rom 14:22 Hast thou faith? Have it to thyself before God. Blessed is he that condemneth not himself in that which he alloweth.
Rom 14:23 But he that discerneth, if he eat, is condemned; because not of faith. For all that is not of faith is sin.

 

[livingwordunity]

You’re assuming the reason behind them resenting a statement. It does not show that they ‘hate’ the Church. Those who really hate the Church do not come to it.

What about Judas Iscariot? And the OP isn’t about when people come into the Church but about when people choose not to leave even when plotting against the leadership of the Church as Judas Iscariot did. If I said “adultery is a sin”, and someone says “I resent that statement” do they not call out themselves?

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

You overllooked a question I asked you three times…

I think I have addressed all your questions, and it’s bewildering to see you find this discussion amusing. If you truly do.

 

[LisaA]

To you and to MinkyMurphy and possibliby another, those who brought up the issue of culture wrt to the original question…

Aha! To converts, to those who did not grow up with Catholicism as a part of their cultural identity, and to those like me who were not raised in the Faith nor in a Catholic environment, the question makes perfect sense. Why? Because we have all chosen to leave something (s) with which we disagreed to join up to the Church. For example, I left the “normal” materialist, secular society for Christianity. Then I left that for Catholicism.

Why? Because I no longer agreed with the teachings of my previous environments.

So to those of us who have rejected a previously-held idea and then acted hpon that rejction, the sort of retroactive idea of having stayed seems… really weird. Why would we have stayed with a community with which we no longer agreed?

So when we see Catholics complaining about the teachings of the Church, when we see those dissenters openly advocating that the *Church *change, we wonder about this. We don’t understand it. It doesn’t make sense to us. It is bewildering to us.

Exactly! Maybe that’s why some of us (converts?) don’t read any condemnation in the OP’s question. We have the same question ourselves. I left another denomination with which I disagreed fundamentally on issues of life. Once I realized the nearly militant support of abortion rights, I literally walked out the door thinking I can never go back. It would not have occurred to me to stay and work within to change or simply rattle cages and argue.

I do appreciate the posts regarding the pull of cultural ties, familiy ties, familiarity and even a love of certain aspects of the Church. I just didn’t have that kind of emotional investment n my former denomination.

Lisa

 

[St_Francis]

I think I have addressed all your questions, and it’s bewildering to see you find this discussion amusing. If you truly do.

Since rolling one’s eyes does not indicate amusement, I can only imagine that you are referring to my previous quote, in which I said **you **really crack me up… not the discussion at all.

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

Exactly! Maybe that’s why some of us (converts?) don’t read any condemnation in the OP’s question. We have the same question ourself. I left another denomination with which I disagreed fundamentally on issues of life. Once I realized the nearly militant support of abortion rights, I literally walked out the door thinking I can never go back. It would not have occurred to me to stay and work within to change or simply rattle cages and argue.

I do appreciate the posts regarding the pull of cultural ties, familiy ties, familiarity and even a love of certain aspects of the Church. I just didn’t have that kind of emotional investment n my former denomination.

Lisa

Really? I converted in 1985, guided by the scriptures and the Holy Spirit.

Imagine two greeters at the front of the Church. One says, ‘welcome, brother, or sister,’ and opens the door for those who came. The other says, ‘why do you keep coming here while seeming to hate the Church with all your being?’

The Church exists for us to come to Christ, even with all our flaws. Those flaws have a greater chance of being removed through His Church.

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

What about Judas Iscariot? And the OP isn’t about when people come into the Church but about when people choose not to leave even when plotting against the leadership of the Church as Judas Iscariot did. If I said “adultery is a sin”, and someone says “I resent that statement” do they not call out themselves?

When did Christ send Judas packing?

Do you believe Christ cannot keep His Church safe?

How do you know people are plotting against the leadership of the Church?

 

[livingwordunity]

What about Judas Iscariot? And the OP isn’t about when people come into the Church but about when people choose not to leave even when plotting against the leadership of the Church as Judas Iscariot did. If I said “adultery is a sin”, and someone says “I resent that statement” do they not call out themselves?

When did Christ send Judas packing?

I never said I hope the ones who hate the Catholic Church leave. I said I hope they repent so they can be saved.

How do you know people are plotting against the leadership of the Church?

Because it’s been that way all through the history of the Church ever since the time of Christ.

 

[LisaA]

Really? I converted in 1985, guided by the scriptures and the Holy Spirit.

Imagine two greeters at the front of the Church. One says, ‘welcome, brother, or sister,’ and opens the door for those who came. The other says, ‘why do you keep coming here while seeming to hate the Church with all your being?’

The Church exists for us to come to Christ, even with all our flaws. Those flaws have a greater chance of being removed through His Church.

Why do you persist in creating strawmen? No one has said anything of the sort. Your scene in fact reminds me of a campaign by the UCC indicating that other churches were bigoted and didn’t welcome people of different races or other outward differences. It was bizarre to say the least. It was not very successful. Again, erecting a strawman that resides only in someone’s overly active imagination.

Since even our most experienced greeters are not mind readers, I wonder how on earth they would even know the thoughts of those entering the door?

I give you credit though. You keep beating that poor dead horse. He may show signs of life evenutally!

Lisa

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

Why do you persist in creating strawmen? No one has said anything of the sort. Your scene in fact reminds me of a campaign by the UCC indicating that other churches were bigoted and didn’t welcome people of different races or other outward differences. It was bizarre to say the least. It was not very successful. Again, erecting a strawman that resides only in someone’s overly active imagination.

Since even our most experienced greeters are not mind readers, I wonder how on earth they would even know the thoughts of those entering the door?

I give you credit though. You keep beating that poor dead horse. He may show signs of life evenutally!

Lisa

Do you think the OP is mind reading?

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

I never said I hope the ones who hate the Catholic Church leave. I said I hope they repent so they can be saved.Because it’s been that way all through the history of the Church ever since the time of Christ.

No, you didn’t. You asked, ‘why they stayed?’

Do you think Christ is incapable of protecting His Church?

So you can’t name anyone, or any specific group, trying to plot against the Church from within?

 

[Julianna]

Julianna, Do I understand correctly that you’ve been a catholic your whole life and never had it explained to you that you are a sinner who needs to repent in order to receive the mercy and salvation of Christ?

Please tell me I read that wrong. Maybe you just object to the “saved” terminology more often used in protestant circles? Don’t let vocab be an obstacle to meaning. Catholic teaching on Original Sin is in substantial agreement with the protestants on the necessity of Grace in order for us sinners to be saved.

I don’t object to the “saved” terminology, I have never heard it as a Catholic. It is more of a Baptist terminology.