Why do some stay in the Catholic Church while seeming to hate the Church with all their being?

  • Thread starter Thread starter livingwordunity
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
LisaA said:
Dex, the only one who sounds angry here is you. I don’t think the OP condmned the people who stay in the Church for staying but just trying to understand. I admit wondering this myself. As a convert I chose the Catholic Church. At the time I converted I didn’t agree or understand a lot of the teaching but I kept working at it, reading and listening. I soon realized that some of the doctrines i might have rejected at face value, I accepted once I understood.

I too wonder why people stay when they are in such sharp disagreement. I don’t resent it, I don’t dislike them for coming, I hope their minds are open to the Word and maybe their hearts will change. But I still don’t understand those who are so vehemently opposed to Church teaching but stay. To some extent I think they are trying to form allies. Maybe they are there because they like the music and tune out the homily. Or they have friends and family.

More of a curiousity than a condemnation IMO
Lisa
Click to expand...
I’m not angry. I just dislike overt judgementalism and I strongly believe it is thoroughly unbecoming in anyone who calls themselves a Catholic. I’ve given my reasons why I believe the opening post is implicit in its judgement. I see no need to repeat them.
 
DexUK said:
I’m not angry. I just dislike overt judgementalism and I strongly believe it is thoroughly unbecoming in anyone who calls themselves a Catholic. I’ve given my reasons why I believe the opening post is implicit in its judgement. I won’t repeat them.
Click to expand...
Like I said, you judged me. Jesus said that we should beware of some who would mislead us in the faith. And he said we will know them by their fruits. Do you disagree with that? 🙂
 
DexUK said:
I’m not angry. I just dislike overt judgementalism and I strongly believe it is thoroughly unbecoming in anyone who calls themselves a Catholic. I’ve given my reasons why I believe the opening post is implicit in its judgement. I see no need to repeat them.
Click to expand...
I’m in agreement with you.
 
livingwordunity said:
I hear nothing but complaints about the Church from some Catholics. But most of these complaints are blaming the Church for doctrines that she got directly from Christ. Some of the complaints border on being paranoid and delusional such as the claim that the Church is spying on them in the bedroom just because the Church won’t approve of sexual sins. All of a sudden the Church is being accused of being bigoted because of our sacrament of marriage. It’s as if they think the Church just came up with this doctrine about marriage yesterday. It seems that most if not all of them are “cradle Catholics”. And it seems that they have a belief that is like the fundamentalist doctrine of “once saved, always saved” except there’s is “once baptized Catholic, always saved and always Catholic”. I’m not saying that every “cradle Catholic” is like this. There are many “cradle Catholics” who are models of the Catholic faith such as my wife. 🙂
Click to expand...
what an absurd thing to claim. who has ever told you the Church wants to spy in bedrooms?
 
Fairwinds said:
what an absurd thing to claim. who has ever told you the Church wants to spy in bedrooms?
Click to expand...
I don’t want to call anyone out. But the Catholic Church’s stand on sexual morality is commonly described as peaking into people’s bedrooms and invading their privacy. I can’t believe that you’ve never heard anyone use that against the Catholic Church. 🙂
 
livingwordunity said:
Like I said, you judged me. Jesus said that we should beware of some who would mislead us in the faith. And he said we will know them by their fruits. Do you disagree with that? 🙂
Click to expand...
He also said, judge not lest you yourself be judged.

He also pointed out the failings of being ‘pharisaical’.

I think you’re being judgemental, and I agree with the other poster who pointed out the example of the pharisees. I recommend strongly that you consider deeply the words you have written and how you view those whom you identify as having views contrary to what you think the Church’s teachings are. Before asking such loaded questions in the future, perhaps ask yourself if you are a: wrong to do so, b: whether it’s as bad as you think, c: what good will asking the question do and d: whether it’s better for those in disagreement to stay to hear the Word of God or to take themselves off elsewhere where they won’t hear the Word.

If you think these people are wrong, surely it’s better that they at least hear the Truth? It might sink in, might it not? It’d never sink in if they’re elsewhere…
 
livingwordunity said:
I don’t want to call anyone out. But the Catholic Church’s stand on sexual morality is commonly described as peaking into people’s bedrooms and invading their privacy. I can’t believe that you’ve never heard anyone use that against the Catholic Church. 🙂
Click to expand...
you’re saying that many people are now saying the Church’s morality involves peeking into bedrooms? that’s a seriously grave misrepresentation of Church teaching, isn’t it? maybe you’re mistaken about this.
 
DexUK said:
I’m not angry. I just dislike overt judgementalism and I strongly believe it is thoroughly unbecoming in anyone who calls themselves a Catholic. I’ve given my reasons why I believe the opening post is implicit in its judgement. I see no need to repeat them.
Click to expand...
Again, I think you are seeing imaginary condemnation in the form of a question. Further please do not be confused by the “judge not” phrase which is often quoted but frequently misunderstood.

We can and we must judge others’ actions, words, and impact. We don’t judge the state of their souls. If someone at my Parish creates scandal by openly engaging in sinful behavior, claiming the Church is wrong about adultery or fornication or stealing, and thus leading others to doubt and to scandal, well I am going to judge their actions as wrong. And I expect others to judge my behavior by the same standard.

I don’t know the OP’s heart but I sure didn’t see the kind of open hostility toward anti-Church Catholics that you have read into his post

Lisa
 
livingwordunity said:
Emotional straw man. I asked a question. I did not condemn anyone. I hope everyone of them will repent and be saved. By the way, you just judged me. Do you know what’s in my heart? 🙂
Click to expand...
who are you talking about? innuendo isn’t charitable.
 
LisaA said:
Again, I think you are seeing imaginary condemnation in the form of a question. Further please do not be confused by the “judge not” phrase which is often quoted but frequently misunderstood.

We can and we must judge others’ actions, words, and impact. We don’t judge the state of their souls. If someone at my Parish creates scandal by openly engaging in sinful behavior, claiming the Church is wrong about adultery or fornication or stealing, and thus leading others to doubt and to scandal, well I am going to judge their actions as wrong. And I expect others to judge my behavior by the same standard.

I don’t know the OP’s heart but I sure didn’t see the kind of open hostility toward anti-Church Catholics that you have read into his post

Lisa
Click to expand...
It seems you might have missed the examples of ‘models of the Catholic faith’ in comparison to those ‘other’ Catholics. It very much reminds me of the Pharisee and Publican praying, that Jesus spoke about.
 
I think the main reason people like this stay in the Church is pride. It’s not enough for them to just leave, because they don’t want to just find people that agree with them, they want to actively assert their will on others, and they can only do this in a place (like the Church) that “resists” their will.

Also, to some degree, some of them may deep down have a sense that the Church is right, and this nags at them, so while they want to assert their will on the Church, they also can’t quite let go.

To the person saying that this thread is judging others, there is nothing judgemental in asking why someone would belong to a group that they disagree with; it’s a perfectly valid question.

My guess would be that many of these people that hate the Church, yet stay nominally part of it, would feel very uncomforable if they had to honestly look into themselves and confront this question head on. They would see parts of themselves that they would not like see, and that is why this question is often danced around, or completely avoided.
 
Douay Rheims St Matthew 10

[11] And into whatsoever city or town you shall enter, inquire who in it is worthy, and there abide till you go thence. [12] And when you come into the house, salute it, saying: Peace be to this house. [13] And if that house be worthy, your peace shall come upon it; but if it be not worthy, your peace shall return to you. **[14] And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear your words: going forth out of that house or city shake off the dust from your feet. **[15] Amen I say to you, it shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom and Gomorrha in the day of judgment, than for that city.

[16] Behold I send you as sheep in the midst of wolves. Be ye therefore wise as serpents and simple as doves. [17] But beware of men. For they will deliver you up in councils, and they will scourge you in their synagogues. [18] And you shall be brought before governors, and before kings for my sake, for a testimony to them and to the Gentiles: [19] But when they shall deliver you up, take no thought how or what to speak: for it shall be given you in that hour what to speak. [20] For it is not you that speak, but the Spirit of your Father that speaketh in you.

To me, what Christ told the disciples was to simply walk away from those who would not hear Him, through His apostles. Notice that Christ did *not *suggest that His apostles stay in those towns and “not-judge” their *actions *on the off-hand chance the townspeople might come to see the error of their ways; no, Christ told the apostles to leave those people thoroughly–to the point of shaking the *dust *of those towns off their sandals!

I included a little more of what He said, so people could see precisely what Christ said about those people who would not hear Him…
 
St_Francis said:
Douay Rheims St Matthew 10

[11] And into whatsoever city or town you shall enter, inquire who in it is worthy, and there abide till you go thence. [12] And when you come into the house, salute it, saying: Peace be to this house. [13] And if that house be worthy, your peace shall come upon it; but if it be not worthy, your peace shall return to you. **[14] And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear your words: going forth out of that house or city shake off the dust from your feet. **[15] Amen I say to you, it shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom and Gomorrha in the day of judgment, than for that city.

[16] Behold I send you as sheep in the midst of wolves. Be ye therefore wise as serpents and simple as doves. [17] But beware of men. For they will deliver you up in councils, and they will scourge you in their synagogues. [18] And you shall be brought before governors, and before kings for my sake, for a testimony to them and to the Gentiles: [19] But when they shall deliver you up, take no thought how or what to speak: for it shall be given you in that hour what to speak. [20] For it is not you that speak, but the Spirit of your Father that speaketh in you.

To me, what Christ told the disciples was to simply walk away from those who would not hear Him, through His apostles. Notice that Christ did *not *suggest that His apostles stay in those towns and “not-judge” their *actions *on the off-hand chance the townspeople might come to see the error of their ways; no, Christ told the apostles to leave those people thoroughly–to the point of shaking the *dust *of those towns off their sandals!

I included a little more of what He said, so people could see precisely what Christ said about those people who would not hear Him…
Click to expand...
Christ also said it was His to separate the goats and sheep. We can’t take instructions to the authoritative men of the Church as license to push people away from HIS house.
 
And here is what St Thomas Aquinas had to say about those who rejected just one aspect of the Faith:

On the contrary, Just as mortal sin is contrary to charity, so is disbelief in one article of faith contrary to faith. Now charity does not remain in a man after one mortal sin. Therefore neither does faith, after a man disbelieves one article.

I answer that, Neither living nor lifeless faith remains in a heretic who disbelieves one article of faith…

Now it is manifest that he who adheres to the teaching of the Church, as to an infallible rule, assents to whatever the Church teaches; otherwise, if, of the things taught by the Church, he holds what he chooses to hold, and rejects what he chooses to reject, he no longer adheres to the teaching of the Church as to an infallible rule, but to his own will. Hence it is evident that a heretic who obstinately disbelieves one article of faith, is not prepared to follow the teaching of the Church in all things; but if he is not obstinate, he is no longer in heresy but only in error. Therefore it is clear that such a heretic with regard to one article has no faith in the other articles, but only a kind of opinion in accordance with his own will.

Summa Theologica II-II 5 Q 3
 
St_Francis said:
And here is what St Thomas Aquinas had to say about those who rejected just one aspect of the Faith:

On the contrary, Just as mortal sin is contrary to charity, so is disbelief in one article of faith contrary to faith. Now charity does not remain in a man after one mortal sin. Therefore neither does faith, after a man disbelieves one article.

I answer that, Neither living nor lifeless faith remains in a heretic who disbelieves one article of faith…

Now it is manifest that he who adheres to the teaching of the Church, as to an infallible rule, assents to whatever the Church teaches; otherwise, if, of the things taught by the Church, he holds what he chooses to hold, and rejects what he chooses to reject, he no longer adheres to the teaching of the Church as to an infallible rule, but to his own will. Hence it is evident that a heretic who obstinately disbelieves one article of faith, is not prepared to follow the teaching of the Church in all things; but if he is not obstinate, he is no longer in heresy but only in error. Therefore it is clear that such a heretic with regard to one article has no faith in the other articles, but only a kind of opinion in accordance with his own will.

Summa Theologica II-II 5 Q 3
Click to expand...
Where does he question those in err coming to the Church? Even those who are excommunicated are encouraged to come to the Church.
 
post 1 has some serious charges hiding behind innuendo. that’s not fair in the least.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top