Why do some stay in the Catholic Church while seeming to hate the Church with all their being?

[mlz]

Please go to : ohiospiritualwarfare.org. Click on further study" and read “three Secret Strategies of Satan to Sestroy our Children,our famies and our Culture and our Church” one of those strategies is " never judge anyone" - you must read ia a s realize how unnu g the evil one is these days and NOT be deceived !!!
My love in Christ,
mlz

 

[St_Francis]

Sure, let’s judge people and speak despicably about them and see how that ‘tough’ love wins them over to a faith, and God, of love.

Let’s tell them how much better we are than they are and see if we can teach them humility.

You seem completely determined to misinterpret what people post.

2478 To avoid rash judgment, everyone should be careful to interpret insofar as possible his neighbor’s thoughts, words, and deeds in a favorable way:

Every good Christian ought to be more ready to give a favorable interpretation to another’s statement than to condemn it. But if he cannot do so, let him ask how the other understands it. And if the latter understands it badly, let the former correct him with love. If that does not suffice, let the Christian try all suitable ways to bring the other to a correct interpretation so that he may be saved.280

Asking why someone would do something, btw, is not the same as telling people that they are being judgemental, speaking dispicably about people, and assuming one is better than they are.

 

[TexCatholic4JMJ]

Again, I think you are seeing imaginary condemnation in the form of a question. Further please do not be confused by the “judge not” phrase which is often quoted but frequently misunderstood.

We can and we must judge others’ actions, words, and impact. We don’t judge the state of their souls. If someone at my Parish creates scandal by openly engaging in sinful behavior, claiming the Church is wrong about adultery or fornication or stealing, and thus leading others to doubt and to scandal, well I am going to judge their actions as wrong. And I expect others to judge my behavior by the same standard.

I don’t know the OP’s heart but I sure didn’t see the kind of open hostility toward anti-Church Catholics that you have read into his post

Lisa

Lisa, I am in complete agreement on this. We chose what is right and wrong all the time
in our everyday lives, that is “judging”.

 

[livingwordunity]

Please go to : ohiospiritualwarfare.org. Click on further study" and read “three Secret Strategies of Satan to Sestroy our Children,our famies and our Culture and our Church” one of those strategies is " never judge anyone" - you must read ia a s realize how unnu g the evil one is these days and NOT be deceived !!!
My love in Christ,
mlz

Here is the website review of ohiospiritualwarfare.org given by CatholicCulture.Org

Description

OSWC is self-described as “a free service devoted to educating the faithful on matters of spiritual warfare and the dangers of the occult, the new age, including information and help with ghosts, demons, poltergeists, hauntings, apparitions, oppression, possession, demonic infestation and the spiritual warfare issues of our current age.”

There is no place on this website that identifies the staff and counselors. Until recently the website had a contact number which was to the St. Padre Pio Center for Deliverance Counseling.

The St. Padre Pio Center for Deliverance Counseling website lists Mr. Joe Meineke as Director & Senior Counselor and Bro. Ignatius Mary, OLSM as Director-Emeritus. Until July 2009 WHOIS had this site registered under John Paul Ignatius (www.saint-mike.org/spcdc/) as part of the St. Michael’s Call site. It is now registered to Joe Meineke. John Paul Ignatius is apparently Richard Lee Collett Jr., a sex offender convicted as recently as 2005. Please see our review of St. Michael’s Call for more information.

The St. Padre Pio Center for Deliverance Counseling has no official standing in the Diocese of Columbus, the founder is of questionable character and Mr. Meineke’s qualifications and training are unknown. For these reasons we recommend that you be wary about contributing money, seeking personal advice, or joining in this apostolate.

Review Ratings what do these ratings mean?

First Evaluated: 08/05/2009; Last Updated: 08/05/2010

Fidelity: Danger!
Resources: Good
Useability: Normal

Strengths

Precautions - Avoiding Extraordinary Demonization  Resources 
Some good articles  Resources

Weaknesses

Other: Staff Counselor has no apparent connection with the Church Example(s)
Other: The Founder is of questionable character Example(s)
Other: Claim to train others to be Spiritual Warriors and Deliverance Counselors

Source:

CatholicCulture.Org

By the way, in the OP I meant “there’s” to be “theirs”.

 

[TimeEntrance]

what an absurd thing to claim. who has ever told you the Church wants to spy in bedrooms?

I think this thread is partly about that other thread where some of you were debating over whether or not sodomy should be made illegal.

I don’t know what gets more threads on this discussion forum, gun control or homosexuality? They both get tiring after a while.

I’m not a practicing Catholic (what some might regard as the equivalent of a secular Jew or a secular Muslim). And I think that gives me some inside/outside perspective looking at the Church. I find a lot of “conservative” and “liberal” Catholics are two different sides of the same coin. They both take a twist what comes from the Bishops of the Church to fit what they think Catholicism ir or ought to be.

The Holy See is clearly morally conservative (which liberals don’t like) and economically liberal (which conservatives don’t like). I think the Holy See might look like communists next to most Democrats in the United States.

The Bishops of the American Catholic Church beside telling Catholics they need to vote with their conscience state that Catholics must vote against abortion, gay marriage, and vote for gun control and organized labor. Basically, with the two party system of the United States that puts Catholics between a rock and a hard place.

I also don’t look highly upon Catholics that see every other person’s sins but sees none of their own. Or as I’ve said in the past my preferred type of Christianity is what some term (spiritually) “monastic Christianity.” Mysticism and inward journey.

Personally, I doubt every gay person in a gay relationship is going to end up in hell. I doubt that very much. If God can tolerate me I’m sure he can tolerate some of these gay and lesbian couples that have never harmed anyone in their life and helped out a few friends and strangers. Yes I know: works vs grace etc. What I do expect to see is some of those doing those most condemning being judged by God with the measure they judged others.

That said… practicing Catholics that oppose just about all Catholic teachings do irk me too. And especially intellectual ones (that are very smart and bright) like Hans Kung.

I’d prefer they just say they are non-practicing Catholics–like secular Muslims that drink alcohol and partake in female bathing suit beauty competitions. Like that secular Muslim, Palestinian that became Miss Israel.

There naturally arises some problems being in a religiously and ethnically diverse democracy like the United States, especially given its Founding Fathers were not Catholics loyal to the Pope and Holy See. The country itself was founded as a “secular nation” with no official Church or denomination. Culturally, the nation has grown to be more secular. And in a democracy majority rule. So, where the majority want gay marriage so it will be.

And I’m pleased with Obama as President. I like his charisma and good sense of humor. I also like that Arab guy that runs Qatar. I’m not Arab or Muslim nor a monarchist but I still like him.

 

[livingwordunity]

I think this thread is partly about that other thread where some of you were debating over whether or not sodomy should be made illegal.

I don’t know what gets more threads on this discussion forum, gun control or homosexuality? They both get tiring after a while.

I’m not a practicing Catholic (what some might regard as the equivalent of a secular Jew or a secular Muslim). And I think that gives me some inside/outside perspective looking at the Church. I find a lot of “conservative” and “liberal” Catholics are two different sides of the same coin. They both take a twist what comes from the Bishops of the Church to fit what they think Catholicism ir or ought to be.

The Holy See is clearly morally conservative (which liberals don’t like) and economically liberal (which conservatives don’t like). I think the Holy See might look like communists next to most Democrats in the United States.

The Bishops of the American Catholic Church beside telling Catholics they need to vote with their conscience state that Catholics must vote against abortion, gay marriage, and vote for gun control and organized labor. Basically, with the two party system of the United States that puts Catholics between a rock and a hard place.

I also don’t look highly upon Catholics that see every other person’s sins but sees none of their own. Or as I’ve said in the past my preferred type of Christianity is what some term (spiritually) “monastic Christianity.” Mysticism and inward journey.

Personally, I doubt every gay person in a gay relationship is going to end up in hell. I doubt that very much. If God can tolerate me I’m sure he can tolerate some of these gay and lesbian couples that have never harmed anyone in their life and helped out a few friends and strangers. Yes I know: works vs grace etc. What I do expect to see is some of those doing those most condemning being judged by God with the measure they judged others.

That said… practicing Catholics that oppose just about all Catholic teachings do irk me too. And especially intellectual ones (that are very smart and bright) like Hans Kung.

I’d prefer they just say they are non-practicing Catholics–like secular Muslims that drink alcohol and partake in female bathing suit beauty competitions. Like that secular Muslim, Palestinian that became Miss Israel.

There naturally arises some problems being in a religiously and ethnically diverse democracy like the United States, especially given its Founding Fathers were not Catholics loyal to the Pope and Holy See. The country itself was founded as a “secular nation” with no official Church or denomination. Culturally, the nation has grown to be more secular. And in a democracy majority rule. So, where the majority want gay marriage so it will be.

And I’m pleased with Obama as President. I like his charisma and good sense of humor. I also like that Arab guy that runs Qatar. I’m not Arab or Muslim nor a monarchist but I still like him.

You left out the category of orthodox Catholic, the ones who accept every teaching of the Catholic Church as is. The teachings of the Catholic Church are neither “liberal” or “conservative” the teachings are the truth. I used to be a non-practicing Catholic, too. And before I converted to Catholicism I used to be a non-Christian. So I know what it’s like to view the Catholic Church from an outside perspective. The expression “if you don’t use it, you lose it” applies to our knowledge of Catholicism. I hope that your zeal for the Catholic faith fully awakens one day.

 

[minkymurph]

I don’t know about the situation in Ireland, bit the situation here is the US is that we have high-profile Catholics protecting late-term abortionists, “Catholic” politicians with 100% ratings from the National Abortion Rights Action League, one of whom bases her advocacy of the “right” of women to kill their unborn babies any time for any reason on the teachings of St Thomas Aquinas regarding penalties for someone who causes a miscarriage, very rich “Catholics” who fund the spread of artificial birth control including abortificients…

And all these people *proclaim *their “Catholic faith”–in fact, one even said her “Catholic faith” *causes her to believe that women should be legally free to kill their unborn babies.

So… it’s not just a matter of some random Catholic questioning why we can’t have married priests…*

No that isn’t just a matter of some random questioning on why we can’t have married priests. I couldn’t even begin to answer this one.

 

[minkymurph]

I’m guessing it is like people who stay working in a job they hate with everything in them. Yet when the alarm rings in the morning they get in their car or other means of transport and go on to the job.

That’s actually quite a good illustration.

It’s like people who hate the boss. I remember a guy who was my boss saying he didn’t know why people didn’t like him as he tried to be fair, get on with people etc. I said it’s because your the boss and its every employees duty to hate the boss no matter how good a boss they are. But take heart, when you leave you’ll be replaced with someone who is worse and then people will appreciate you and wish you were telling them what to do instead.

 

[mcrts]

The church is a hospital for sinners, not a museum for saints!

There are certainly many “anti Catholic Catholics” out there. Perhaps they do genuinely love our Lord and, somewhere deep down, recognise that Holy Mother Church is the Bride of Christ. But they’ve been influenced by society, media and trends which more often than not portray the Church as something from the dark ages. They think that the Church needs to be more progressive and move on with the times. They want the church to suit their needs, and not the other way around.

Our Church has been around for two thousand years. The Mystical Body of Christ has seen the turn of centuries, the rise and fall of empires, wars, scandals, skirmishes and in recent times the proliferation of media. Yet through all the storms and the torrents the Church has stood strong. How can an organisation last that long and still exist till this day? It cannot be anything but the work of God.

 

[LegoGE1947]

The church is a hospital for sinners, not a museum for saints!

There are certainly many “anti Catholic Catholics” out there. Perhaps they do genuinely love our Lord and, somewhere deep down, recognise that Holy Mother Church is the Bride of Christ. But they’ve been influenced by society, media and trends which more often than not portray the Church as something from the dark ages. They think that the Church needs to be more progressive and move on with the times. They want the church to suit their needs, and not the other way around.

Our Church has been around for two thousand years. The Mystical Body of Christ has seen the turn of centuries, the rise and fall of empires, wars, scandals, skirmishes and in recent times the proliferation of media. Yet through all the storms and the torrents the Church has stood strong. How can an organisation last that long and still exist till this day? It cannot be anything but the work of God.

There is a United Church of Christ in our city that has the slogan “Our faith is 2000 years old–but our thinking is not!” Meaning they are “with the times” translated quite liberal in their interpretation of Scripture.

 

[TimeEntrance]

You left out the category of orthodox Catholic, the ones who accept every teaching of the Catholic Church as is. The teachings of the Catholic Church are neither “liberal” or “conservative” the teachings are the truth. I used to be a non-practicing Catholic, too. And before I converted to Catholicism I used to be a non-Christian. So I know what it’s like to view the Catholic Church from an outside perspective. The expression “if you don’t use it, you lose it” applies to our knowledge of Catholicism. I hope that your zeal for the Catholic faith fully awakens one day.

There really aren’t any orthodox Catholics that post on this website so far as I can tell.

Hans Kung or another claiming to be “orthodox” is not something persuasive to me. And realize I come from an environment where people are always selling some pitch and trying to present themselves as one way from what they truly are. I see this and experience this especially with women hooked on crack cocaine. All of whom are “saints” when they’re around other people they want to fool and and quickly turn into “devils” when their is no need to wear the mask.

Someone obsessed over homosexuality, irate over homosexuals today enjoying a bit of reprieve from the hate they used to receive decades ago, is not in a state of peace of received from Christ or Holy Spirit. They are in a state of interior turmoil. At the root of a lot of this is envy.

Look, few suffer the public scorn over issues of homosexuality online as I do, as I express my sincere beliefs which neither nurtures the pro or anti-homosexual agenda. When I state homosexuality is unlikely to be genetically heritable, seems from evidence to be alterable (I like the scientific writings of NARF), and that I doubt most homosexuals are going to hell (though possible–but logically it’s possible most of us are going to hell), inevitably I infuriate both sides. People tend to like to hear messages that confirm their beliefs. And when beliefs are “group beliefs” and people align themselves with a group now we are playing a game from back when we were all kids of who is “in” the group and who is “out.” And few to no one wants to be outside the group. Therefore, they’ll just ramble off what they hear said in their group.

I also upset people (especially liberal, pro-gay, heterosexual women) when I publicly state my sexual biography which includes homosexual sex. This really infuriates women given my stance. Either they think I’m lying or they assume I’m telling the truth but too much of a coward to “be who I am” and rather than admit I’m gay go on a covert holy jihad against gayness.

And don’t add “atheism” to one of the traits of the woman or women liberals upset with me. Because they love to speak logically (unemotional) but hate when a man replies back to them logically (unemotional). And both conservatives and liberals love to throw around the word “love.”

So, as it happens, I’ve had on a different website a long time ago, young, black and mixed-race women from the United States and United Kingdom, just hate me. They were all liberals. Period. And most of them claimed to be agnostic or atheist. I really got myself in hot water over my stance on homosexuality. And the black mixed-race guy that was gay, and in love affairs with white men, they all loved, and publicly stated they wanted to have kids with.

Now, I really don’t need to go into the logic of some of this stuff. It should be pretty evident if one can find away to get over their sympathies for the “poor, strong, black woman” narrative of the United States. In terms of the logic in the science of sexual selection, that black gay male was discriminating against black women in favor of white males. Those non-married black females were discriminating against me in favor of the gay male.

None of them could no more see reality and what they were doing than you liberals and conservatives can with your trenches dug in the sand. If you are an American Catholic and conservative and refuse to obey the teachings of the American Bishops about gun control (or organized labor) then you are disobedient. Simple as that.

But the Bishops understand the complexities of life and of voting in the two party system of the USA. So, the Bishops tell (and I agree with them) Catholics to ultimately vote with their conscience.

 

[Peebo]

Yes…let’s love those Catholics who don’t agree with the teachings of the Catholic Church…let’s be like many of the Protestant churches who allow divorce…homosexual priests and bishops…abortion…etc…all through their love of one another…after all we can’t be seen as judgmental even if they are defying the church which has the authority of Jesus Christ…in fact we are told as christians to “correct” any christian who we see is in danger of falling into sin…that is not “judging” them…that is showing love and compassion that you care about their immortal soul…unfortunately it appears some Catholics as well have fallen into the secular trap of accusing other christians of being “judgmental” when they are in fact just the opposite…I became a Catholic many years ago from Pentacostalism because I came to see the errors in that denomination and the truth in Catholicism…and so I left…and if Catholics don’t want to believe the truth of the Catholic faith…then yes they should find a denomination that is more in tune to what they do believe…and last but most important …how can any Catholic who is angry at or doesn’t agree with what the church teaches…receive the blessed Eucharist…should we allow that out of “love” by not being “judgmental”…I think not…or should we "correct them " out of love as to what they are doing…

 

[TimeEntrance]

I should emphasize the word envy here.

Does one envy drug dealers, drug addicts, gay men, successful CEO’s, married men, or professionally and financially successful women? The list can go on. Like envying a popular black President for his charisma and oratory skills.

I know what envy is as I’ve been infected with it and have battled it and still battle it today. Fortunately, my battles with it keeps it tempered in me.

Within the United States there are going to be millions of gay men (some effeminate) that are going to receive the moral support and affection of millions upon millions upon millions of American (United Statesian*) women over me. Period. Story over with. The question is do I develop and nurture envy inside myself for those gay men due to their social and romantic successes?

I’ve concluded it bears more fruit, gives me more peace, to not nurture envy, and to accept the good fortune of those gay males, and to look for figurative “shores” more conducive to my own happiness and success. First of all, things could be much worse. Second of all, I ought let God be God and do the business of God, and that requires trusting in God. So, whether it is murders on the streets of black Milwaukee or gay parades all over the United States, I’ll leave all that to God. I’m a nobody (as so many liberal and conservative women in the US would like to let me know and remind me) and can change nothing. And as a nobody I’m not jumping into anyone’s crusades as one of their expendable pawns. I did my time in the Marine Corps in the Gulf War with little to no fruit to bear from that worth while and I’m done with peoples, elites, legionnaire wars. The only wars I’m fighting are my own or those of those very close to me. The gay male that sleeps with many men and contracts HIV is on his own (with me) and likewise with the American woman that cracks her neck or smashes her spine playing American football with men. And that’s a reality. As harsh a reality as the effects of crack smoking, as a lion sinking its teeth into the flesh of its prey, of soldiers getting their legs blown off in war.

*And in reality “Americans” are more properly United Statesians, and no more exclusively “American” than “gay genes” are the cause of homosexuality. It does not matter what delusions “Americans” have about themselves and their inability to accept reality.

 

[St_Francis]

QUOTE=LegoGE1947;10714358]I’m guessing it is like people who stay working in a job they hate with everything in them. Yet when the alarm rings in the morning they get in their car or other means of transport and go on to the job.

That’s actually quite a good illustration.

It’s like people who hate the boss. I remember a guy who was my boss saying he didn’t know why people didn’t like him as he tried to be fair, get on with people etc. I said it’s because your the boss and its every employees duty to hate the boss no matter how good a boss they are. But take heart, when you leave you’ll be replaced with someone who is worse and then people will appreciate you and wish you were telling them what to do instead.

Wowiekazawow!!! << Where’s a gigantic fallen-on-the-floor-with-astonishment smiley when you really need it!!!

My first thought: Isn’t this an incredibly immature attitude? I have worked for a number of different people in a very wide variety of jobs, and I did not hate my bosses. (Oops, I don’t mean to say I was or am particularly mature ) Anyway… I have worked for difficult people, but I disliked them because they were difficult, not because they were the boss, and I also had some spectacularly wonderful bosses, people I would pay to work for! --OK, take a pay cut to work for. And other bosses… not so much

But!!! This does really describe the attitude of a lot of those who disagree with the Church. That whiney “mean ol’ Church” pout: They won’t let people who loooooove each other get married

But this shows a *completely *erroneous idea of what the Church is all about. The Church is our guide and help to Heaven! The Church is supposed to lead us to Heaven along the route Christ taught us, the sure path, and provision us for the journey, in the sacraments.

But some people have the idea that the Church is just a bunch of grouchy old men who want to spoil any fun in life!

 

[Fairwinds]

Yes…let’s love those Catholics who don’t agree with the teachings of the Catholic Church…let’s be like many of the Protestant churches who allow divorce…homosexual priests and bishops…abortion…etc…all through their love of one another…after all we can’t be seen as judgmental even if they are defying the church which has the authority of Jesus Christ…in fact we are told as christians to “correct” any christian who we see is in danger of falling into sin…that is not “judging” them…that is showing love and compassion that you care about their immortal soul…unfortunately it appears some Catholics as well have fallen into the secular trap of accusing other christians of being “judgmental” when they are in fact just the opposite…I became a Catholic many years ago from Pentacostalism because I came to see the errors in that denomination and the truth in Catholicism…and so I left…and if Catholics don’t want to believe the truth of the Catholic faith…then yes they should find a denomination that is more in tune to what they do believe…and last but most important …how can any Catholic who is angry at or doesn’t agree with what the church teaches…receive the blessed Eucharist…should we allow that out of “love” by not being “judgmental”…I think not…or should we "correct them " out of love as to what they are doing…

truth. we don’t want sinners in our church.

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

truth. we don’t want sinners in our church.

That’s called an empty Church.

 

[minkymurph]

Wowiekazawow!!! << Where’s a gigantic fallen-on-the-floor-with-astonishment smiley when you really need it!!!

Does this mean you thought the comment was funny or you didn’t like it?

My first thought: Isn’t this an incredibly immature attitude? I have worked for a number of different people in a very wide variety of jobs, and I did not hate my bosses. (Oops, I don’t mean to say I was or am particularly mature ) Anyway… I have worked for difficult people, but I disliked them because they were difficult, not because they were the boss, and I also had some spectacularly wonderful bosses, people I would pay to work for! --OK, take a pay cut to work for. And other bosses… not so much

But!!! This does really describe the attitude of a lot of those who disagree with the Church. That whiney “mean ol’ Church” pout: They won’t let people who loooooove each other get married

But this shows a *completely *erroneous idea of what the Church is all about. The Church is our guide and help to Heaven! The Church is supposed to lead us to Heaven along the route Christ taught us, the sure path, and provision us for the journey, in the sacraments.

But some people have the idea that the Church is just a bunch of grouchy old men who want to spoil any fun in life!

Funny you should say this. The establishment I worked in did employ a lot of young people. By young I mean still at school, so a lot of them would not have been immature. But then we can’t expect young people still at school to behave with the same degree of maturity as those who have more miles on the clock.

Having said that, I grew up in a culture were people were very class conscious. Class was important to people, part of their identity and the lines of class distinction were very clear. In my ‘class,’ the boss was not someone who could be your friend and not someone who was there to be liked. There were workers and management and they did not mix. Kids who went to the ‘better’ schools did not mix with kids who didn’t and if you lived in an affluent area you didn’t socialize with people who did not. I’m not saying this is a good thing, its just a the way it was.

People not liking the Church may have its roots in this kind of culture - a culture where no one likes the ‘teacher’s pet,’ the bosses ‘blue eye,’ people who ‘suck up’ to the boss or any figure of authority was to treated with suspicion. Politicians - they have always been viewed with mistrust, are objects of ridicule and continue to be so. Class distinction is something that has changed in Ireland but people who are friendly with the ‘boss,’ the Parish priest or the school principle are still treated with a degree of suspicion. I would still perceive ‘the boss,’ my kids teachers and church clerics as people are not your friend and are to be kept at a distance. I appreciate of course other cultures are different.

On a final note, I bet if you had worked for a guy I in the past had the misfortune to work for you would have hated him, because EVERYBODY did - even his ‘friends.’ In fact, I think his wife even hated him.

 

[livingwordunity]

That’s called an empty Church.

Here’s a question for you. If you owned a business and had an employee who only comes to work when he feels like it and verbally attacks the company that pays his wage would that be good or bad for the business and other employees?

 

[Fairwinds]

Here’s a question for you. If you owned a business and had an employee who never did anything else but verbally attack the company that pays his wage would that be good or bad for the business and other employees?

did you get around to identifying the people you were talking about in post 1 yet?

 

[opus101]

It seems that many have totally misunderstood livingwordunity’s original post. It’s not about those who lead sinful lives apart from the Church, nor is it about those who live sinful lives within the Church, but are trying to overcome.

It’s about those who actually have a hatred for the faith, don’t believe in some of the doctrines, and make a big deal out of it by actively campaigning against the Church and maligning it.

I’ve encountered such people many times.

Pesonally, I think it is because they were very poorly catechized and/or were led astray by false theology taught by a good number of priests and religious during the past 40+ years.

I agre with the OP. Why do they keep hanging around a place that they hate? This is a great lack of integrity. They should follow their consciences (however faulty) to a church that best matches their beliefs (probably a liberal Episcopalian/Anglican or Lutheran church might fit better).

This might tend better toward their salvation. God willing, they will come to see their error and return to the Church. It is better to do that than to perhaps promote heresy within the church and make sacrilegious communions.

It is one thing to struggle with Church teaching, or to be unaware of it, and another thing to be quite aware of it and reject it (all the while calling oneself “Catholic”.)