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catholic1seeks
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But I thought immortality of the body was a preternatural gift given to Adam and Eve. They lost it through sin. Why should the damned receive the gift back?
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anon10271182
Guest
Key passage from the Summa (linked above):
“This is also becoming to Divine justice, that whereas they departed from one by sin, and placed their end in material things which are many and various, so should they be tormented in many ways and from many sources.”
The punishments will fit the sins. Like a glove. It is what it is–justice. We don’t have to like it. But we should. God is infinitely just, as He is infinite in all His attributes. St. Thomas Aquinas discusses these in great detail as well, elsewhere in the Summa Theologica.
The souls of all, blessed and damned alike, will be reunited with their resurrected bodies.
“This is also becoming to Divine justice, that whereas they departed from one by sin, and placed their end in material things which are many and various, so should they be tormented in many ways and from many sources.”
The punishments will fit the sins. Like a glove. It is what it is–justice. We don’t have to like it. But we should. God is infinitely just, as He is infinite in all His attributes. St. Thomas Aquinas discusses these in great detail as well, elsewhere in the Summa Theologica.
The souls of all, blessed and damned alike, will be reunited with their resurrected bodies.
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catholic1seeks
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It just seems a very human way of looking at things.
We are alive on Earth, if we are lucky, up to 80, 90, or 100 years. Then our entire eternity will be finalized based on that very small amount of time.
Think of this as time on earth:
o
Now think of this as the endless eternity in hell:
ooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo
…And so on, forever and ever. How does that one small circle of choices result in the FOREVER of punishment?
We are alive on Earth, if we are lucky, up to 80, 90, or 100 years. Then our entire eternity will be finalized based on that very small amount of time.
Think of this as time on earth:
o
Now think of this as the endless eternity in hell:
ooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo
…And so on, forever and ever. How does that one small circle of choices result in the FOREVER of punishment?
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anon10271182
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Aquinas’ work is the foundation of Catholic Moral Theology. His work is completely grounded in Holy Scripture and in the Church Fathers (whose work is also grounded in Holy Scripture). And the author of Holy Scripture is…
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catholic1seeks
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I never said Aquinas was the issue.
However, I’d be careful about claiming Aquinas is the “foundation” of Catholic morality. That puts a lot on one man, and Eastern Catholics would beg to differ.
However, I’d be careful about claiming Aquinas is the “foundation” of Catholic morality. That puts a lot on one man, and Eastern Catholics would beg to differ.
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anon10271182
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Roman Catholic, then. Like these forums.
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Benadam
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Human immortality is dependent on God because our bodies are mortal. With an immortal soul the body shares in immortality. Our soul is created immortal to become eternal. If our soul’s proper end is eternity then what it was created for shares in it’s state. Jesus’ soul was Glorified at conception His body was a mortal. Since His soul is Beatified at conception He is resurrected.even if killed. .
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Vico
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The analogy of worms not dying is that the body lives forever. Now, arbitrary means not fixed by law, however since God is always just, any punishment will also be. Note that it the Catechism we have more explanation.
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Gab123
Guest
On earth we are in time; in eternity there is no time;. No past, no future, only an eternal present; in other words, no time to repent. The soul is sealed, either in union with God, or separated from God. An existence without God; Absence of love. Absence of goodness, absence of truth, absence of light, absence of joy, absence of hope; in company with Satan, wicked spirits, damned souls.
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Zaccheus
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How can one act of virtue equate to never-ending bliss and joy?
And yet it does. One decision, one act, can bring someone to Heaven.
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anon10271182
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God’s justice is perfect. We are prideful to question it. And as Aquinas said, pride is the root of all the other sins.
po18guy
Well-known member
If I had to guess, it is because worldly pleasure was enjoyed via the bodily senses, so God’s justice must also be meted out via the body. It is the counter to the faithful receiving a glorified body. In the strict sense they do not need one, but God has so ordained it.
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catholic1seeks
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Actually not true. Only God is eternity without time. All finite creatures, even angels, are somehow in time. Time assumes changeability. If we have motion in the next life, for example, then there is “time.”
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catholic1seeks
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Well in the case of Heaven, it is a gift, a reward.
SO on your own analogy, hell would be like God actively giving us an “extra” punishment, just as in Heaven God is giving us an “extra” (undeserved) gift of eternal happiness.
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Gab123
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Time is a measurement of change. Hell is an eternal punishment, meaning an eternal state which cannot change. Thus we speak of Eternal Damnation and Eternal Salvation. The supernatural existence is beyond our imagination, thus our concept of time here on earth and how it effects our mortality bears no resemblance to what is in eternity where we will have immortal spiritualized bodies, just like the glorified body of Jesus Christ.
The Damned and the saved will both have resurrected bodies:
"there shall be a resurrection both of the just and unjust” (Acts 24:14-15).
The saved will be like the Resurrected Christ:
“now we are children of God, and what we will be has not yet been made known. But we know that when Christ appears,a we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is.” 1John 3:2
The Resurrected Bodies in heaven will differ in glory:
"The glory of the heavenly bodies is different from the glory of the earthly bodies. The sun has one kind of glory, while the moon and stars each have another kind. And even the stars differ from each other in their glory. It is the same way with the resurrection of the dead. Our earthly bodies are planted in the ground when we die, but they will be raised to live forever. Our bodies are buried in brokenness, but they will be raised in glory. They are buried in weakness, but they will be raised in strength. They are buried as natural human bodies, but they will be raised as spiritual bodies. For just as there are natural bodies, there are also spiritual bodies. . . our physical bodies cannot inherit the Kingdom of God. These dying bodies cannot inherit what will last forever. But let me reveal to you a wonderful secret. We will not all die, but we will all be transformed! It will happen in a moment, in the blink of an eye, when the last trumpet is blown. For when the trumpet sounds, those who have died will be raised to live forever. And we who are living will also be transformed. For our dying bodies must be transformed into bodies that will never die; our mortal bodies must be transformed into immortal bodies. Then, when our dying bodies have been transformed into bodies that will never die, this Scripture will be fulfilled:
“Death is swallowed up in victory.
O death, where is your victory?
O death, where is your sting?”
For sin is the sting that results in death, and the law gives sin its power. But thank God! He gives us victory over sin and death through our Lord Jesus Christ. So, my dear brothers and sisters, be strong and immovable. Always work enthusiastically for the Lord, for you know that nothing you do for the Lord is ever useless." 1 Cor. 15: 40-58
“Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its evil desires. Do not offer any part of yourself to sin as an instrument of wickedness, but rather offer yourselves to God as those who have been brought from death to life; and offer every part of yourself to him as an instrument of righteousness. For sin shall no longer be your master, because you are not under the law, but under grace.” Rom. 6:12-14
The Damned and the saved will both have resurrected bodies:
"there shall be a resurrection both of the just and unjust” (Acts 24:14-15).
The saved will be like the Resurrected Christ:
“now we are children of God, and what we will be has not yet been made known. But we know that when Christ appears,a we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is.” 1John 3:2
The Resurrected Bodies in heaven will differ in glory:
"The glory of the heavenly bodies is different from the glory of the earthly bodies. The sun has one kind of glory, while the moon and stars each have another kind. And even the stars differ from each other in their glory. It is the same way with the resurrection of the dead. Our earthly bodies are planted in the ground when we die, but they will be raised to live forever. Our bodies are buried in brokenness, but they will be raised in glory. They are buried in weakness, but they will be raised in strength. They are buried as natural human bodies, but they will be raised as spiritual bodies. For just as there are natural bodies, there are also spiritual bodies. . . our physical bodies cannot inherit the Kingdom of God. These dying bodies cannot inherit what will last forever. But let me reveal to you a wonderful secret. We will not all die, but we will all be transformed! It will happen in a moment, in the blink of an eye, when the last trumpet is blown. For when the trumpet sounds, those who have died will be raised to live forever. And we who are living will also be transformed. For our dying bodies must be transformed into bodies that will never die; our mortal bodies must be transformed into immortal bodies. Then, when our dying bodies have been transformed into bodies that will never die, this Scripture will be fulfilled:
“Death is swallowed up in victory.
O death, where is your victory?
O death, where is your sting?”
For sin is the sting that results in death, and the law gives sin its power. But thank God! He gives us victory over sin and death through our Lord Jesus Christ. So, my dear brothers and sisters, be strong and immovable. Always work enthusiastically for the Lord, for you know that nothing you do for the Lord is ever useless." 1 Cor. 15: 40-58
“Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its evil desires. Do not offer any part of yourself to sin as an instrument of wickedness, but rather offer yourselves to God as those who have been brought from death to life; and offer every part of yourself to him as an instrument of righteousness. For sin shall no longer be your master, because you are not under the law, but under grace.” Rom. 6:12-14
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catholic1seeks
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But, ultimately, the point remains: The suffering is endless. Not infinite, but it’s everlasting.
How ever we want to try to hash it out philosophically, the basic reality is that some humans’ entire existence will be marked by eternal, everlasting torment. We can bring free will into this, but who actually willingly embraces eternal torment?
How ever we want to try to hash it out philosophically, the basic reality is that some humans’ entire existence will be marked by eternal, everlasting torment. We can bring free will into this, but who actually willingly embraces eternal torment?
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Gab123
Guest
As scripture states, the wages of sin is death. People willingly embrace mortal sin all the time, and in doing so they are embracing the consequences of unrepented mortal sin, which in the next life is eternal torment…
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catholic1seeks
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According to Aquinas, sin is really a preference for good over a higher good or in a disordered way.
It just seems unintelligible to say that someone should deserve unending punishment for choices to follow a perceived good. No one chooses something to deliberately make them unhappy.
It just seems unintelligible to say that someone should deserve unending punishment for choices to follow a perceived good. No one chooses something to deliberately make them unhappy.
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AlbertDerGrosse
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Wait, is this an argument against resurrected bodies in Hell, or against Hell itself?
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