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Jim_Dandy
Guest
Please post your source(s) for these statements. Thanks.
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valient_Lucy
Guest
Here’s a link to a Mormon’s advice to a Returned Missionary about seeking a wife by President Spensor Kimball in 1974. He was the head of the Mormon Church and Mormons looked to him as a Prophet of God, capable of receiving divine revelation from God. I’m quoting part of his talk, where he talks about a young man who has not yet married.
lds.org/ldsorg/v/index.jsp?vgnextoid=2354fccf2b7db010VgnVCM1000004d82620aRCRD&locale=0&sourceId=c58c61cb2b86b010VgnVCM1000004d82620a____&hideNav=1
*I shall feel sorry for this young man when the day comes that he faces the Great Judge at the throne and when the Lord asks this boy: “Where is your wife?” All of his excuses which he gave to his fellows on earth will seem very light and senseless when he answers the Judge. “I was very busy,” or “I felt I should get my education first,” or “I did not find the right girl”—such answers will be hollow and of little avail. He knew he was commanded to find a wife and marry her and make her happy. He knew it was his duty to become the father of children and provide a rich, full life for them as they grew up. He knew all this, yet postponed his responsibility. So we say to all youth regardless of what country is your home, and regardless of the customs in your country, your Heavenly Father expects you to marry for eternity and rear a good, strong family. *
Notice that, for Mormons, their eternal salvation depends upon them marrying and raising a family.
I have a friend who is Mormon, and she talked about this. She told me that a Mormon’s salvation depends upon him or her marrying in the temple and giving birth to the “spirit children” waiting in heaven for physical bodies.
Here’s Marlin Jensen, a Mormon historian and a member of the First Quorum of the Seventy, talking about Temple marriage.
pbs.org/mormons/interviews/jensen.html#1
*Ultimately we learn in the temple ceremony that our destiny is to return to God and to return there as families, so the sealing that takes place, the marriage that takes place in the temple where a man and a woman are joined together – or, as we term it, “sealed together” – not just for time or until death does us part, but for time and all eternity, is to me the high point, really, in religious experience and in religious ceremony. *
As such, a Mormon will always value marriage and family more than a Catholic; just as a Catholic will always value communion more than Mormons do. It stems from their theology.
I’m not saying that Catholics do not value marriage or families. I’m simply saying that they do not value them to the same degree as Mormons, and cannot, without drastically changing Catholic theology.
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valient_Lucy
Guest
I remember reading something similar, by an ex-Mormon woman. She talked about how she wanted to provide as many earthly bodies for spirit children as she could. I also remember an interview from the PBS Mormons documentary where a man talked about how they believed that his family already existed in heaven before they were born, and how his wife was very much convinced that there was another spirit child waiting to come to earth to be part of their family.
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valient_Lucy
Guest
I don’t think that we really can learn from this aspect of their faith and culture, because as I stated last night, their family life stems from their theology about salvation and the afterlife that Catholics do not share. Mormonism has a much higher view of families than Catholicism, which leads to marriage and families.
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valient_Lucy
Guest
One last thought:
*I have read ultra-traditionalists attack the Church’s embrace of natural family planning, arguing that Catholics have a moral duty to “outbreed the Mohammedans.” I have wondered, reading that, how much of the higher Muslim birthrate is the result of a holy openness to life, and how much to their disregard for the human dignity of women; any faith that permits polygamy and marriage at age nine, whose adherents defend female chastity through widespread “honor-killing,” is no kind of model for us.
There is indeed abroad in the West a toxic “contraceptive mentality.” Like every heresy, it has an equal, opposite heresy. (The Arians denied Christ’s divinity; the Modalists His true humanity.) If we can practice narcissism by refusing to ration present pleasures for the sake of the next generation, it is equally possible to treat women as means rather than ends, to employ them merely as breeders of soldiers and sons. *
“A Time to Gloat” John Zmirak
*I have read ultra-traditionalists attack the Church’s embrace of natural family planning, arguing that Catholics have a moral duty to “outbreed the Mohammedans.” I have wondered, reading that, how much of the higher Muslim birthrate is the result of a holy openness to life, and how much to their disregard for the human dignity of women; any faith that permits polygamy and marriage at age nine, whose adherents defend female chastity through widespread “honor-killing,” is no kind of model for us.
There is indeed abroad in the West a toxic “contraceptive mentality.” Like every heresy, it has an equal, opposite heresy. (The Arians denied Christ’s divinity; the Modalists His true humanity.) If we can practice narcissism by refusing to ration present pleasures for the sake of the next generation, it is equally possible to treat women as means rather than ends, to employ them merely as breeders of soldiers and sons. *
“A Time to Gloat” John Zmirak
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manualman
Guest
Where I think people lost you Lucy, was when you said Mormons had a “higher” view of marriage and family. From your follow-on posts, it appears you mean to say that they see it as an inseparable part of their salvation.
In catholicism, we see marriage as a sacrament, specifically the one to which most (not all) people are called in which they will receive the lifelong Grace needed to be sanctified and prepared for heaven. The Mormon view is (IMO) not “higher” than this. In fact, I’d say it is a distorted emphasis.
But I think I get what you mean, and agree it makes sense.
In catholicism, we see marriage as a sacrament, specifically the one to which most (not all) people are called in which they will receive the lifelong Grace needed to be sanctified and prepared for heaven. The Mormon view is (IMO) not “higher” than this. In fact, I’d say it is a distorted emphasis.
But I think I get what you mean, and agree it makes sense.
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valient_Lucy
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Just to clarify, when I say “higher” I do not mean better or true. In fact, I agree that their view of marriage is distorted and, for lack of a better term, insane. (I was horrified when my Mormon friend stated that getting married was essential for salvation.)
Personally, I don’t see why it would be insulting to imply that another religion has a higher view of something than Catholics do. It’s not a negative statement against the Catholic understanding or belief about marriage. It’s just a statement that marriage and families are more exalted in Mormonism than Catholicism.
Think of it this way. Jews have a “higher” view of the Torah than Catholics, because they don’t believe in the New Testament. Does this mean Catholics don’t value the Torah (the first five books of the Bible)? Of course not. It also doesn’t mean that the Jews are right about the Torah, or about New Testament. It just means that the Torah has a far more exalted role in Judaism than it does in Catholicism. That’s all that means.
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valient_Lucy
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Or better yet, think of it this way. The Incas and the Aztecs had a much more exalted view of human sacrifice than Catholics do, or a higher view of human sacrifice.
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campeador
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valient_Lucy
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?
Are you saying it’s because they have farms and there’s a lot lower population density out west?
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rmcmullan
Guest
This is an interesting read on the topic of religion and fertility:
moreintelligentlife.com/story/faith-equals-fertility
The title is Faith Equals Fertility
A juicy quote:
moreintelligentlife.com/story/faith-equals-fertility
The title is Faith Equals Fertility
A juicy quote:
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KathleenGee
Guest
Some times there isn’t enough work. In Italy, if a man cannot get a good job, he cannot provide for a family, so he doesn’t marry.
Ireland has had its share of famine and becoming a colony of an anti-Catholic country that tried to destroy Irish culture and language. There is an inside attitude about sex, to be watchful in how many you bring into this world, to avoid infant mortality and heartbreak for the parents.
Early Christians were not sexually indulgent, and saw sex mainly as the means for procreation.
Today with the pill or American affluence, which is of course, will become a thing of the past, did give us a rosy view of providence.
The Catholic view of marriage is that it is a sacrament, the union centered on the living presence of Christ, the home a domestic church, the place where true faith is nurtured and cherished.
The Mormons might want to read the family life of St. Therese of Liseaux, the Little Flower, to get an insight on devout Catholic family life.
The other day I attended a talk by a mother of 8 children. She told us that when she folds the laundry, she uses that time to pray for every child in her family. Her husband has decided to fast and do penance for each child, deciding on something to give up for the rest of his life for their sanctification. Their children are now figuring out why he doesn’t eat this any more or do that anymore…because he is offering up a something for their growth in Christ, especially in this culture of abundance.
They pray the family rosary. Now one of their sons, who became a priest, and only lasted very briefly in two parishes, is back in Rome, one of the attendants to Pope Benedict…I saw his picture there, and now will be able to recognize him at future events.
Ireland has had its share of famine and becoming a colony of an anti-Catholic country that tried to destroy Irish culture and language. There is an inside attitude about sex, to be watchful in how many you bring into this world, to avoid infant mortality and heartbreak for the parents.
Early Christians were not sexually indulgent, and saw sex mainly as the means for procreation.
Today with the pill or American affluence, which is of course, will become a thing of the past, did give us a rosy view of providence.
The Catholic view of marriage is that it is a sacrament, the union centered on the living presence of Christ, the home a domestic church, the place where true faith is nurtured and cherished.
The Mormons might want to read the family life of St. Therese of Liseaux, the Little Flower, to get an insight on devout Catholic family life.
The other day I attended a talk by a mother of 8 children. She told us that when she folds the laundry, she uses that time to pray for every child in her family. Her husband has decided to fast and do penance for each child, deciding on something to give up for the rest of his life for their sanctification. Their children are now figuring out why he doesn’t eat this any more or do that anymore…because he is offering up a something for their growth in Christ, especially in this culture of abundance.
They pray the family rosary. Now one of their sons, who became a priest, and only lasted very briefly in two parishes, is back in Rome, one of the attendants to Pope Benedict…I saw his picture there, and now will be able to recognize him at future events.
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lynnettejane
Guest
Mormon family life isn’t that great. OK they may have large families, they also have a high divorce rate, and it would seem luke warm on abortion. Their women have apparently high levels of depression.
Fact is, Mormons are under pressure to reproduce for reasons already stated.
Mormonism has totally missed the point of Christianity
Fact is, Mormons are under pressure to reproduce for reasons already stated.
Mormonism has totally missed the point of Christianity
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valient_Lucy
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You’re absolutely right to point out that the early days with high birthrates were not that rosey.
Good point. Christians in those days also didn’t marry for love; you could find yourself married to someone you didn’t know or didn’t even like as a person. If you’re a 16 year old girl married to a 40 year old man your parents picked out for you and you never even met before your wedding, the only reason to have sex is for procreation.
We also assume that our children are going to be happy and healthy. Most Americans have never watched a child starve to death (thank God!) so it’s easy to assume that, if you have a large family, you’ll be able to feed them.
We’re not talking about the Catholic view of family life. We’re talking about the Mormon view of family life.
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valient_Lucy
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There’s definitely a tremendous amount of pressure on the family, because they believe that family life is, quite frankly, as good as it gets. There’s no union with God in heaven, no communion of saints. Just family unity forever. There’s a tremendous amount of pressure on families to be perfect, because the family is heaven on earth.
I saw an interview with a Poor Clare nun, who said that, for the Poor Clares of Perpetual Adoration, heaven begins on earth, because a Poor Clare nun spends her life adoring God and being in His presence. This kind of thinking doesn’t exist in Mormonism. The family life (marriage, begetting spirit children, etc.) is that which they believe the afterlife consists.
As others state, that works really well if you have a great, perfect, Donna Reed, Leave It to Beaver family. If you’re family isn’t so great, it’s a terrible thought.
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valient_Lucy
Guest
It should also be pointed out that women in the past had a tremendous amount of pressure to produce sons. I was reading Love and Louis XIV, about the women and court of King Louis XIV. There was an account in the book about a princess who gave birth to a daughter. She was so upset, she volunteered to drown the child herself.
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elgar
Guest
Many Catholics today have a “luke-warm” attitude about their religion. Mormons OTOH follow a much more rigid rule book. They also give a lot of their income to their church unlike Catholics who tend to be really cheap!
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KathleenGee
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Catholics cheap?
It takes 3 incomes to have a family.
You tithe a married couple, without children, who…the husband alone, makes good income.
You tithe a working class man with a wife and two children…who carries the heavier burden of tithing…the couple without children or the working class family?
People are free to give what they can. There are only two passages in the Old Testament out of the Bible that dictated people tithe, and you had to look at the living conditions of those time to see the reasons why.
The long term tradition of going back to 100 AD was that only those who were rich would provide…and even that, they would have the freedom to chose how much they gave.
And with that liberality, the Catholic Church has not been cheap in the expression of faith found in our magnificent churches, our service to the general populace in the building of hospitals and hospices, schools, and higher education. Our school system is the most effective in helping inner city children and youth go forward, learn self-discipline, and go on to college. And these same youth are not forced or compelled to become Catholic either.
It takes 3 incomes to have a family.
You tithe a married couple, without children, who…the husband alone, makes good income.
You tithe a working class man with a wife and two children…who carries the heavier burden of tithing…the couple without children or the working class family?
People are free to give what they can. There are only two passages in the Old Testament out of the Bible that dictated people tithe, and you had to look at the living conditions of those time to see the reasons why.
The long term tradition of going back to 100 AD was that only those who were rich would provide…and even that, they would have the freedom to chose how much they gave.
And with that liberality, the Catholic Church has not been cheap in the expression of faith found in our magnificent churches, our service to the general populace in the building of hospitals and hospices, schools, and higher education. Our school system is the most effective in helping inner city children and youth go forward, learn self-discipline, and go on to college. And these same youth are not forced or compelled to become Catholic either.
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valient_Lucy
Guest
Mormons are required by the church to tithe ten percent of their income. I believe that Mormons must submit a copy of their W-2 at the end of the year to verify that they have indeed given 10% of their income. If they don’t, they can’t go to the temple, even to watch their children marry.
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