Why do we as Catholics believe that life begins at conception?

[Little_Sheep]

Separate distinct human life is present from the moment of conception. The only people who dispute that are those looking for an excuse to justify killing the child

Estesbob, what you put a woman who had a medication abortion (swallowed 1-2 pills in the first 12 weeks) on trial for premeditated murder of a child with a 12-man jury to decide her fate?

 

[Rau]

Estesbob, what you put a woman who had a medication abortion (swallowed 1-2 pills in the first 12 weeks) on trial for premeditated murder of a child with a 12-man jury to decide her fate?

The law does not punish adulterers at all, but we don’t have difficulty understanding the immorality of adultery as an independent question.

So should we able to understand the immorality of abortion, and separately consider the position the law can or should adopt.

 

[openmind77]

I speculated earlier (following the line of reasoning offered by openmind77) that ensoulment could perhaps happen when a child is capable of distinguishing right from wrong (or choose any other time-point). Were someone to believe that, they would be unable to discern immorality in killing a 6 month old baby equivalent to that attaching to killing an older (ensouled) innocent. This is what I find bizarre in what openmind77 asserts. The idea that the morality of killing an innocent human is a function of the timing of ensoulment - this fails to make sense to me. I see how it can be utilitarian - but it does not make sense.

Nobody believes ensoulment happens after birth (you are the only one who seems to have come up with this idea). Since nobody else thinks so, it is illegal in all countries to kill babies after birth.

But many people (including me) don’t believe it happens at conception. I personally think it probably happens when the brain of the fetus is developed enough that the soul would be able to inhabit the fetus comfortably. In any case, nobody knows for sure, so it is best that we wait for the Christ to tell us. In the meantime nobody has the right to condemn or prohibit the woman from terminating a unwanted pregnancy.

The Christ will be returning soon, so you don’t need to wait that long for this issue to be resolved. Needless to say, I expect the Christ to agree with me - so abortion will be freely available in ALL countries a few years after the Christ returns (at least for the first few months after conception).

 

[estesbob]

This is my favorite question. For many today and for many over the years, ensoulment happens at the quickening.

I do not believe that anyone absolutely knows there is a soul at conception. Frankly, most women don’t know when the moment of conception occurs.

I am somewhat surprised this wasn’t covered in theology school . We learned about it when I was in the seminary. The quickening had nothing whatsoever to do with ensoulment. The penance given for having an abortion was more severe if the abortion was had after the quickening however it was considered a mortal sin regardless of when in gestation the abortion occurred. It has always been the churches teaching that abortion after the moment of conception was a mortal sin and it was unjust taking of human life. The debate about ensoulmentv was pretty much like the debate about how many angels can dance on the head of a pin. Very interesting theological debate but had no practical effect on the teachuings of the church , especially where abortion is concerned. Some believe that in ensoulment takes place at the quickening but again it had no bearing whatsoever on the illicitness of abortion Perhaps your school will cover this next semester

 

[Rau]

…But many people (including me) don’t believe it happens at conception. I personally think it probably happens when the brain of the fetus is developed enough that the soul would be able to inhabit the fetus comfortably…

I will take some comfort that those sharing your idea will at least feel that it is immoral to terminate a pregnancy after some stage of development, if not from the beginning…

 

[estesbob]

Estesbob, what you put a woman who had a medication abortion (swallowed 1-2 pills in the first 12 weeks) on trial for premeditated murder of a child with a 12-man jury to decide her fate?

No . As I explained before my goal is to make abortion illegal in this country and there’s no support whatsoever for punishing the woman who procured an abortion. To propose putting women who have abortions on trial would have the practical effect of making sure that abortion was never made it illegal . I propose we go back to the way things were before Roe was imposed where the penalties were imposed on the abortionist . I do not believe that this in any way relieves the culpability of the woman for the evil she is doing but if we are going to end abortion we cannot let the perfect be the enemy possible

 

[estesbob]

The law does not punish adulterers at all, but we don’t have difficulty understanding the immorality of adultery as an independent question.

So should we able to understand the immorality of abortion, and separately consider the position the law can or should adopt.

It is basically an argument designed to try to derail the discussion . Whether or not a woman is put on trial for procuring an abortion has no bearing whatsoever on the morality of the action . I am more than willing to see the woman go unpunished if that will facilitate a quicker banning of abortion in this country

 

[Crown_of_Stars]

To think abortion is not murder is to live in a fantasy world. And, in my true belief, pregnancy is not a personal issue. It’s called motherhood, and it used to be considered a blessing. At least thousands of years ago. Mary is the perfect example of a woman who was more than “accepting” of it. Abortion is a violation of the child’s privacy, inside the womb. Hands reach in and attack her and viciously end her life. All I see when I look at pictures of these slain unborn children are a life viciously ended. Abortion is a violation of the child’s mere right to live. The child’s intention, by God, to live.

 

[petra22]

Right. That is good to know.

A worry that remains for me (with your reasoning) is that we don’t know whether ensoulment occurs at or prior to birth either. Is it logically necessary that it occur then - could it occur sometime later, maybe much later, say, when the child is able to recognise right from wrong?

“Suffer not the little children to come unto me, for such is the Kingdom of Heaven…”

 

[ynotzap]

I do not think it is possible for humans to know the answer to this question. I respect that many Catholics accept that life in the form of man+woman+God begins at conception because the Catholic Church tells them this is so.

I’ve studied a lot about what the Catholic Church has to say about it - as well as what other religions and philosophies and scientists have to say. I do not personally find the Catholic Church’s position on the issue to be sound or persuasive and, clearly, I’m not the only one - else our current US laws would call abortion murder.

This question is at the very heart of the mystery of life. I do not believe any of us have the answer. We all simply try to do our best in the face of a great unknown. I am all about creating a world where all life is wanted, welcomed and nurtured.

You say that you studied Catholic teaching, and if you did to the degree you seem to imply, then you must have come. across the teachings of St. Thomas Aquinas , one of the great Teachers in the church He explains what we call “soul” All living things have a soul. Life is synonymous with autonomous activity, the soul is the source or principle of that activity. This activity from the source explains all of the development that comes from within that living entity, whether it is vegetable, animal, or human. What do you understand about the soul?

The US laws like the Supreme court, with the very small possibility of a few, understand nothing about the nature of life, or the soul, if they did, they would not have passed the laws they did regarding abortion, or same sex marriage. Ignorance is one of the consequences of original sin, and we all are sinners, but some of us through grace received "enlightenment " from Jesus Christ, God the Author of all life. Is God so divided? Is that why we have so many religions? Are they all true? Truth is One, Jesus says “I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life” Incidently it’s both a scientific and a Theological matter with accurate answers from both and not in opposition to each other, truth is one, united.

 

[petra22]

This is my favorite question. For many today and for many over the years, ensoulment happens at the quickening.

I do not believe that anyone absolutely knows there is a soul at conception. Frankly, most women don’t know when the moment of conception occurs.

l

So, you are saying that because we don’t know absolutely that there is a soul it must not be there? Kind of like if we can’t absolutely know God then He isn’t there either?

 

[HelenRose]

If she believes that she is in fact killing human being then naturally it would be immoral for her to terminate the pregnancy.

But whether it is wrong in the eyes of God, only someone like the Christ can determine.

We can not condemn the woman merely on the basis of our own beliefs.

We can not and do not condemn anyone. That is God’s position. We can not and do not know the degree in which a woman is culpable in having an abortion… only God has that knowledge.

But… even if a woman through duress and confusion is not culpable, those who have given her no choice are. An abortionist, a boyfriend, husband, family or friends who are not there to help her and her unborn baby may be the ones God finds culpable. Even so, we do not and can not condemn anyone because we do not and can not know the whole story.

We believe that killing a six month old child is a horrible thing to do. Yet, in ancient Rome this was an accepted process called exposure. A child was left outside to die if she or he were deformed or otherwise not wanted by a family. Sometimes these babies were found and raised as slaves. Sometimes these babies were found and raised as family. Sometimes these babies just perished by starving in the hot sun and cold nights. Should we not protest against the killing of a six month old child because of our beliefs. What right do we have to condemn those people. They believed it was okay.

We are lying if pretend that an unborn baby does not possess the same dignity that all human beings possess. Cutting up and vacuuming out of the womb an unborn baby is no different than allowing a six month old baby starve in the weather.

 

[openmind77]

We can not and do not condemn anyone. …

Really? I hear a lot condemning and accusations of any one who believes in the right of a woman to control and have autonomy over her own body

We are lying if pretend that an unborn baby does not possess the same dignity that all human beings possess. Cutting up and vacuuming out of the womb an unborn baby is no different than allowing a six month old baby starve in the weather.

As already stated above, many people, in fact a majority of the world, do not believe that a fetus is a human being. They also do not believe that the fetus has a soul at conception. If you chose to believe that it does, that is your privilege. But there is no evidence to support your belief.

When the Christ returns, we will know for certain at exactly point a fetus acquires a human soul and at exactly what point it needs to be accorded the same rights as a human being. I believe that the point is when the fetus is capable of living independently of the pregnant woman.

But until the Christ returns and tells us, there is no way to know for certain. Whatever your position, we should not be so sure that the Christ will agree with it.

 

[Brendan]

As already stated above, many people, in fact a majority of the world, do not believe that a fetus is a human being. They also do not believe that the fetus has a soul at conception. If you chose to believe that it does, that is your privilege. But there is no evidence to support your belief.

Scientifically, it is. It is no other species. Every biologist on the planet will testify to that. Person beliefs to the contrary are meaningless.

And likewise, any belief on a soul is irrelevant.

What matters is: Do ALL humans get human rights, or only a subset.

And unborn human is just that, a human. If every human has certain rights, then an unborn human does.

If not, they I would like to hear any comments on exactly WHO gets to decide on what groups get human rights and what groups do not.

Should it be up to a majority vote?

 

[estesbob]

Really? I hear a lot condemning and accusations of any one who believes in the right of a woman to control and have autonomy over her own body

As already stated above, many people, in fact a majority of the world, do not believe that a fetus is a human being. They also do not believe that the fetus has a soul at conception. If you chose to believe that it does, that is your privilege. But there is no evidence to support your belief.

When the Christ returns, we will know for certain at exactly point a fetus acquires a human soul and at exactly what point it needs to be accorded the same rights as a human being. I believe that the point is when the fetus is capable of living independently of the pregnant woman.

But until the Christ returns and tells us, there is no way to know for certain. Whatever your position, we should not be so sure that the Christ will agree with it.

The right to life is not dependent upon any arbitrary definition of when life begins or even when a human being gains a soul. Separate distinct human life is present from the moment of conception on. There is no dispute about this.

 

[Ender]

I hear a lot condemning and accusations of any one who believes in the right of a woman to control and have autonomy over her own body.

No one cares what a woman does with her own body. The concern is with what she does to someone else’s body, specifically that of her unborn child.

As already stated above, many people, in fact a majority of the world, do not believe that a fetus is a human being. They also do not believe that the fetus has a soul at conception.

What are the criteria we should use in determining when it is justifiable to end a human life? Before it has a soul? Before we believe it has a soul? I think if you actually try to specify when a human can be destroyed you will find your position indefensible.

Ender

 

[openmind77]

…
If not, they I would like to hear any comments on exactly WHO gets to decide on what groups get human rights and what groups do not.

Should it be up to a majority vote?

Only someone like the Christ gets to decide (or knows) the truth regarding such an issue. He will be returning very soon (probably in a couple of years). So it is best not to try to impose your own beliefs on someone else

 

[openmind77]

No one cares what a woman does with her own body. The concern is with what she does to someone else’s body, specifically that of her unborn child.
What are the criteria we should use in determining when it is justifiable to end a human life? Before it has a soul? Before we believe it has a soul? I think if you actually try to specify when a human can be destroyed you will find your position indefensible.

Ender

What you care about is your own privilege. However, when you condemn, harass, persecute and attempt to make life difficult for those who are exercising their right to control their own body, that becomes an issue.

The fact is no one knows the exact time the fetus becomes a human being. Only someone like the Christ can tell us with certainty when this occurs. I am not trying to specify that time. But it is definitely not at the time of conception (per my belief and that of the majority of the world). Since we don’t know, we should just wait until such a time as the Christ returns (will be soon) and not condemn or try to prevent a woman from exercising her rights.

 

[estesbob]

What you care about is your own privilege. However, when you condemn, harass, persecute and attempt to make life difficult for those who are exercising their right to control their own body, that becomes an issue.

The fact is no one knows the exact time the fetus becomes a human being. Only someone like the Christ can tell us with certainty when this occurs. I am not trying to specify that time. But it is definitely not at the time of conception (per my belief and that of the majority of the world). Since we don’t know, we should just wait until such a time as the Christ returns (will be soon) and not condemn or try to prevent a woman from exercising her rights.

I’ve always been puzzled by the contention that killings one child was somehow controlling your own body

 

[clem456]

What you care about is your own privilege. However, when you condemn, harass, persecute and attempt to make life difficult for those who are exercising their right to control their own body, that becomes an issue.

The fact is no one knows the exact time the fetus becomes a human being. Only someone like the Christ can tell us with certainty when this occurs. I am not trying to specify that time. But it is definitely not at the time of conception (per my belief and that of the majority of the world). Since we don’t know, we should just wait until such a time as the Christ returns (will be soon) and not condemn or try to prevent a woman from exercising her rights.

The problem is that people arrogate these issues to themselves. They subject the very humanity of human beings to their own opinions. When in doubt about what it means to be human, they opt for the doubt and throw up their hands in capitulation. They subject humanity to their own ideas about what it means to be human.

And the result is genocide. There is too much “my” in the world. My body, my belief, my opinion, my race is better, my society cannot support you, my career is more important, your are too old for my health system, your mind is not able enough for my society. My viewpoint makes you expendable.

If you can’t even give the benefit of the doubt to what is demonstrably human, do not expect justice for any other person, at any time, in any place.
You will get the world of your own choosing. If you choose to make human beings subjects, then you are yourself a subject, and that’s what your life is worth. And if your life is worth nothing, what is everyone else’s life worth?

0