Why do you believe in Sola Scriptura?

[Per_Crucem]

Jesus is of course truth who infallibly guides his church into all truth. So, when a baptist proclaims Christ and teaches things you do not agree with, he/she is proclaiming truth? Of course not. The church is the pillar and foundation of truth and therefore every Christian, regardless of denomination, is proclaiming truth? Nah, I know you don’t believe that…

Depends on what he’s proclaiming. If he’s proclaiming Christ, he’s not going to say anything I disagree with. They are Christian, too, you know, and are part of the church (as much as that may chafe at times).

Cool. So you belong to the EOC? It’s either the EOCs or the CC. The"manifold wisdom of God is known through one of these churches so why not belong to one of them. It’s certainly not one of the Protestant churches, and I mean no disrespect; just being honest.

So how does a fallible guy decide which church is infallible?

So there could be an exception regarding “all have sinned”? Or are you going to insist that you are absolutely right, no chance of being wrong on this particular issue?

Nope. Not a chance

 

[joe371]

Per Crucem, clearly ALL can have different meanings:

“…for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God…”

Has everyone fallen short of the glory of God?

Mt 3:5-6, “Then went out to Him Jerusalem, and ALL Judea, and ALL the region about the Jordan; and they were baptized by him in the Jordan, confessing their sins.”

Were all of the people of Judea, and the region about the Jordan baptized?

Whys is your answer no to this one and yes to "all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God? l

 

[Per_Crucem]

Per Crucem, clearly ALL can have different meanings:

Has everyone fallen short of the glory of God?

Mt 3:5-6, “Then went out to Him Jerusalem, and ALL Judea, and ALL the region about the Jordan; and they were baptized by him in the Jordan, confessing their sins.”

Were all of the people of Judea, and the region about the Jordan baptized?

Whys is your answer no to this one and yes to "all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God? l

As I’ve said numerous times (10-12 or so), a few verses prior to the all have sinned verse, Paul indicts all mankind, Jew and Gentile, with being guilty of breaking the law, and that no flesh will be justified in the sight of God through the law, because all have broken the law.

 

[joe371]

=Per Crucem;11838230]Depends on what he’s proclaiming. If he’s proclaiming Christ, he’s not going to say anything I disagree with. They are Christian, too, you know, and are part of the church (as much as that may chafe at times).

You really don’t see a problem with this kind of thinking? I proclaim Christ so you must agree with everything I am saying???

So how does a fallible guy decide which church is infallible?

Well, a fallible guy like myself simply ruled out every church that was established by a mere man or woman in the 16th, 17th…21st century. That left me with the CC, and the EOC. That’s a reasonable starting point.

 

[joe371]

As I’ve said numerous times (10-12 or so), a few verses prior to the all have sinned verse, Paul indicts all mankind, Jew and Gentile, with being guilty of breaking the law, and that no flesh will be justified in the sight of God through the law, because all have broken the law.

I see you are not going to be flexible on the term “all”, so I will drop the issue and respect your right to believe that Mary, the mother of God, was a sinner. However, you did not answer this question: In Romans 3, has everyone (“all”) fallen short of the glory of God?

 

[Per_Crucem]

You really don’t see a problem with this kind of thinking? I proclaim Christ so you must agree with everything I am saying???

Can you name anything that Baptists preach about Jesus that would qualify as heretical?

Well, a fallible guy like myself simply ruled out every church that was established by a mere man or woman in the 16th, 17th…21st century. That left me with the CC, and the EOC. That’s a reasonable starting point.

So your investigation of church history was infallible?

 

[Per_Crucem]

I see you are not going to be flexible on the term “all”, so I will drop the issue and respect your right to believe that Mary, the mother of God, was a sinner. However, you did not answer this question: In Romans 3, has everyone (“all”) fallen short of the glory of God?

We weren’t discussing in the slightest whether Mary was a sinner.

 

[FathersKnowBest]

Depends on what he’s proclaiming. If he’s proclaiming Christ, he’s not going to say anything I disagree with.

Great.
So, now, as long as they agree with your interpretation (which we have seen in ths “all means all” statement is quite prone to error), they are speaking the truth, and therefore the Holy Spirit is speaking through them.

Great to know that YOUR FALLIBLE PERSONAL JUDGEMENT is what is being used to judge the Holy Spirit!

They are Christian, too, you know, and are part of the church (as much as that may chafe at times).

Right. They are, however, lacking the Teaching Authority of the Church Jesus started, and so are prone to error.

So how does a fallible guy decide which church is infallible?

Well, I do so by believing in the Church that Jesus started.
You know, the one that He vested with the promise of infallibility?

 

[FathersKnowBest]

We weren’t discussing in the slightest whether Mary was a sinner.

She wouldn’t be included in “all”? I though “all means all”?

 

[joe371]

We weren’t discussing in the slightest whether Mary was a sinner.

Hmm…All have sin either includes Mary or it does not. You say all, in Romans, means that all have sinned - no exceptions - right? In Romans 3, has everyone (“all”) fallen short of the glory of God?

Can you name anything that Baptists preach about Jesus that would qualify as heretical?

I cannot infallibly make that call, (it’s dealing with a doctrine of the church) which is why I defer to Jesus’ church to decide? God speaks through His church…

So your investigation of church history was infallible?

I don’t need to be infallible to know when a church was established and by who - agreed?

 

[Per_Crucem]

Hmm…All have sin either includes Mary or it does not. You say all, in Romans, means that all have sinned - no exceptions - right? In Romans 3, has everyone (“all”) fallen short of the glory of God?

What you may have missed, were the 4 or 5 (feels like 4 or 5 dozen times), I mentioned exceptions.

I don’t need to be infallible to know when a church was established and by who - agreed?

According to everything you’ve said about doctrine, you can’t know anything unless an infallible authority can settle the matter. So how do you infallibly know which church is infallible?

 

[joe371]

What you may have missed, were the 4 or 5 (feels like 4 or 5 dozen times), I mentioned exceptions.

According to everything you’ve said about doctrine, you can’t know anything unless an infallible authority can settle the matter. So how do you infallibly know which church is infallible?

I am simply talking about doctrine that divides us such as the Baptist church believing in a symbolic Eucharist etc…I thought you knew that…:thumbsup:To whom should we go, as per the bible, to settle the matter? We already tried to settle the matter using scripture alone; it does not work, but rather continues to divide us…

Like I said, I narrowed the search down to two churches with apostolic pedigree…That was my starting point…Seem reasonable to you?

 

[Per_Crucem]

I cannot infallibly make that call, (it’s dealing with a doctrine of the church) which is why I defer to Jesus’ church to decide? God speaks through His church…

As far as I know, the RCC doesn’t teach that Baptists have a heretical Christology.

 

[joe371]

She wouldn’t be included in “all”? I though “all means all”?

 

[eddie_too]

i think only one Church claims to posses the charism of infallibility.

that should make any search quite short.

 

[Per_Crucem]

I am simply talking about doctrine that divides us such as the Baptist church believing in a symbolic Eucharist etc…I thought you knew that…:thumbsup:To whom should we go, as per the bible, to settle the matter? We already tried to settle the matter using scripture alone; it does not work, but rather continues to divide us…

Like I said, I narrowed the search down to two churches with apostolic pedigree…That was my starting point…Seem reasonable to you?

The starting point is reasonable. I don’t want to read into what you’re saying, but it seems as if you’re saying you can make a reasonable starting point with church history and come to enough of a fallible conclusion that you can objectively know which church is infallible, but when it comes to God the Holy Spirit being able to speak in Scripture so that Christians can understand Him, He lays a goose egg that only a specific caste system in the church can figure out?

 

[joe371]

As far as I know, the RCC doesn’t teach that Baptists have a heretical Christology.

They do if the Baptist church disagrees on the Eucharist e.g. a symbolic understanding that is…But that is veering away from this: when scripture fails to resolve doctrinal differences (me and my sister for example e.g. the Eucharist) to where do we go?

 

[Per_Crucem]

i think only one Church claims to posses the charism of infallibility.

that should make any search quite short.

Nope. Let’s see, there’s the Eastern Orthodox, the RCC, the Oriental Orthodox, the Assyrian Orthodox, the Mormons, and the Jehovas Witnesses. At least.

 

[joe371]

The starting point is reasonable. I don’t want to read into what you’re saying, but it seems as if you’re saying you can make a reasonable starting point with church history and come to enough of a fallible conclusion that you can objectively know which church is infallible, but when it comes to God the Holy Spirit being able to speak in Scripture so that Christians can understand Him, He lays a goose egg that only a specific caste system in the church can figure out?

None of the Protestant churches can trace their lineage back to the apostle? The oldest one is the Lutheran church…

 

[joe371]

Nope. Let’s see, there’s the Eastern Orthodox, the RCC, the Oriental Orthodox, the Assyrian Orthodox, the Mormons, and the Jehovas Witnesses. At least.

Eastern Orthodox, the RCC, the Oriental Orthodox, the Assyrian Orthodox all have apostolic pedigree; good starting point. Mormons, and the Jehovah Witnesses were founded by Jesus in the first century - or???