Why do you believe what you believe?

[Brendan_64]

“The Catholic Church rejects nothing that is true and holy in these religions. She regards with sincere reverence those ways of conduct and of life, those precepts and teachings which, though differing in many aspects from the ones she holds and sets forth, nonetheless often reflect a ray of that Truth which enlightens all men.”

And that says it all. The Church is indeed interested in what other faiths believe, and rejects nothing that is true and holy within other faiths. That is a statement that there is indeed some things that are true and holy within other faiths. The Church does not, as a matter of course, reject out of hand what other faiths believe, but considers carefully what other faiths believe and accepts that there may be some truth and holiness within what these faiths believe. That is more than can be said for a great many other religions that automatically reject all of what those outside their religion believe.

 

[daler]

I’m sure the Church looks at many things. There are many different faiths, denominations, and sects that have sprung up over the past few hundred years. Do you really expect the Church to produce specific, in-depth, Church documents on each of them?

Here’s something produced by the Catholic Bishops of England and Wales on Bahai.

catholic-ew.org.uk/Catholic-News-Media-Library/Archive-Media-Assets/Files/Department-of-Dialogue-and-Unity/Committee-for-Relations-with-Other-Religions/Leaflets-on-other-religions/What-is-the-Baha-i-faith

As far as the Catholic Church is concerned, Bahai is simply another non-Christian faith representing a small amount of people. That is not meant disrespectfully, it is just how the Catholic Church views Bahai.

Brendon,
. Thank you for providing the link, as it is a very fair presentation of the Baha’i Faith.

. The challenge of people of all faiths is that we live in one world, on a single planet, and in the interests of humanity there does arise a need for understanding which necessitates dialogue.

. The reality of such dialogue will center around that which is held in common with other faith traditions, and that which appears to differ. Clearly, there is so very much in common, yet there are a few differences of which people will naturally disagree, particularly when they sharply differ.

. Unfortunately, some things of little importance are magnified, while other greater matters tend to stir emotions and hence cause defensive sentiments which too often cloud sound judgement over these differences.

. An example of something of relatively lesser importance (to me) would be that of whether it was Ishmael, the “firstborn” to Abraham through Hagar, or Isaac, the second born through Sarah. For others, this is a major source of contention, and acts as a springboard to vent all manner of hostilities.

. What should be important to all is the safety and well-being of the people of the planet who suffer unnecessarily in the fallout from all these successive hostilities which lead to so much argument, disunity, and even war. Humanity is held hostage to religion, in this sense, and becomes unhealthy as a result of neglect.

. How then, do people of sincerity and good intention discuss their differences in an atmosphere of friendliness and concord? Surely it is beneath the dignity of any true followers of any of the world’s great religion to argue and slander the sincere beliefs of others of God’s creatures.

. The theme of this thread has to do with: Why we believe what we believe? whether inherited, or gained individually. Yet it tends, as in other threads, to become a platform of attack, rather than a non-judgemental investigation of truths held by others, and why they hold them.

. Would that we could stay on track with benevolence and charity towards all who attend its dialogue to gain an understanding of the beliefs and views of our fellow beings in the creation of God’s world.

Blessings to all

.

 

[openmind77]

In another thread, an interesting question was posed.

“Why do you believe what you believe?”

Some have had experiences that they attribute to God, miracles per se. How do we know that these miracles/experiences are not simple coincidences? And if they are an intervention of some form of Divine Providence, what are the factors which contribute towards believing in Christ, Moses, Muhammad, or Baha’u’llah?

How do people rationalise their beliefs?

What is the difference between true faith and blind faith?

Finally, what is the difference between belief and superstition?

I would be very interested to hear peoples stories and rationalizations of their experiences.

God bless you all!
.

Looks like this thread has deteriorated into debating whether Bahaullah was a true Prophet of God or not.

Actually I acknowledge without any hesitation that Bahaullah was a major Prophet (certainly of a similar status as Moses) but definitely not the same as Jesus - ie he was not a Son of God (or the Father) in the same way as Jesus was.

But to get back to the original topic, all of us tend to believe whatever religion we are born into. And that is the way, it should be. Hinduism has always taught that all religions are just different paths to the same goal and there is no need to change the path you were born into.

However, it is a good idea sometimes to question some of the beliefs in your own religion especially if they are inconsistent with other beliefs in the same religion and also if they just don’t make any sense.

For instance, Christians believe in a just and loving God and yet for centuries they also believed that if babies died before being baptized, they would be stuck in limbo for eternity. The Church finally changed its mind (although it still equivocates about their fate).

Western monotheistic religion have never had a good explanation for what happens to babies who die (or why would a just God let them die) or why some people are born disabled - blind, deaf etc or otherwise unfortunate. Jesus said something about the ‘works of God’, but that explanation is not very satisfactory.

What is the Bahai take on all this - babies who die and people who are born with disabilities - how does God choose which ones and why? (and please give a short answer without metaphors or long quoted passages or links to pages of external stuff - use your own short words, thanks!)

 

[daler]

What is the Bahai take on all this - babies who die and people who are born with disabilities - how does God choose which ones and why?

openmind,
. We are held responsible for the choices we make. Clearly, innocents have not made choices regarding their lives. How God compensates for that which has not happened in the usual sense of nature here, which is part of our development, I don’t know. We are told that God is just, and I’ve read something to the effect when Abdul Baha was consoling a woman who had lost a child that it is as though the Gardener has, in His wisdom, transplanted a small plant to an infinitely greater garden - something to that effect.

. I’ve read something about someone who was born blind, and there was a comment about sight, and all other faculties we possess, as being the “bounty” of God. I’m not conveying this very well, but what I got out of it is that we seem to forget that all that we have in life comes from the bounty of God, and that what I think was being said is that when someone does not receive the full bounty of God, there may be some kind of sign for the rest of us, and that person, to then be thankful for.

. My sense of life in this world is that we have it as our only reference point, and naturally fear losing what we have, and that this fear is natural, and necessary. We “need” to fear losing our life and limb, or else we wouldn’t respond properly to life’s dangers. If, however, we saw what was in store for us, over the next mountain, so to speak, we would not be so afraid of dying, or annihilation. That doesn’t mean we don’t value this life, for we must, but see it in the context of the continuation of life after the death of the body.

. Probably we will understand things infinitely better once we die, or once out body dies, but while here, we need to develop ourselves spiritually as well as physically.

. You know that when so many pregnancies end in premature death and do not go to term, there is a wisdom in that an otherwise severely handicapped person, or soul, would probably not survive. My brother’s son was a twin, but his mate did not go full term.

. If we look upon ourselves only as a physical entity, rather than a soul which progresses with the utility of a physical stage, our vision is limited.
.

 

[Adamski]

In another thread, an interesting question was posed.

“Why do you believe what you believe?”

Some have had experiences that they attribute to God, miracles per se. How do we know that these miracles/experiences are not simple coincidences? And if they are an intervention of some form of Divine Providence, what are the factors which contribute towards believing in Christ, Moses, Muhammad, or Baha’u’llah?

How do people rationalise their beliefs?

What is the difference between true faith and blind faith?

Finally, what is the difference between belief and superstition?

I would be very interested to hear peoples stories and rationalizations of their experiences.

God bless you all!

.

Great question!!!

I was an agnostic and was reading about people who claimed to be God such as David Koresh or Jim jones. And realized everyone in our generation was crazy who claimed to be God.

Then less then a couple of months later I found a book called “more than a carpenter” by josh McDowell an evangelical it claimed if you read the bible jesus can only be God, crazy or a liar.

I read the bible to see if this was true and it was jesus claimed to be God, but he said some very interesting things about improving ones life.

I decided to try to apply Jesus’s ideas to my life to improve it and started attending an evangelical church. For over 5 years I had no change in my sinful life, but still wanted to learn about what jesus had to say.

Then one day I heard mother Angelica saying the rosary on catholic radio. I bought a rosary and found her on you tube and said the rosary with her. Many of my sins and my desire to sin went away for ever and my life drastically improved.

 

[fred_conty]

Looks like this thread has deteriorated into debating whether Bahaullah was a true Prophet of God or not.

Actually I acknowledge without any hesitation that Bahaullah was a major Prophet (certainly of a similar status as Moses) but definitely not the same as Jesus - ie he was not a Son of God (or the Father) in the same way as Jesus was.

But to get back to the original topic, all of us tend to believe whatever religion we are born into. And that is the way, it should be. Hinduism has always taught that all religions are just different paths to the same goal and there is no need to change the path you were born into.

However, it is a good idea sometimes to question some of the beliefs in your own religion especially if they are inconsistent with other beliefs in the same religion and also if they just don’t make any sense.

For instance, Christians believe in a just and loving God and yet for centuries they also believed that if babies died before being baptized, they would be stuck in limbo for eternity. The Church finally changed its mind (although it still equivocates about their fate).

Western monotheistic religion have never had a good explanation for what happens to babies who die (or why would a just God let them die) or why some people are born disabled - blind, deaf etc or otherwise unfortunate. Jesus said something about the ‘works of God’, but that explanation is not very satisfactory.

What is the Bahai take on all this - babies who die and people who are born with disabilities - how does God choose which ones and why? (and please give a short answer without metaphors or long quoted passages or links to pages of external stuff - use your own short words, thanks!)

You mentioned that the church changed her teaching on where unbaptised babies go upon death. Not so.

The church has always taught that they haven’t taught anything definitive. The reason for Limbo is that thologians in the church proposed Limbo as one solution to the problem, but the church never required assent to this.

The fact is that we leave this in the hands of the all merciful God.

The other point about questioning those teachings that don’t make sense also falls into the “not so” category. For instance, just based on reasoning, it doesn’t make a lot of sense that God would die on a cross, or that he would be born in a stable, or that there is three persons in one God, or, or, or…

What is wrong is that this denies our believing in a God who is truth itself. The reason we have so many different christian churches is precisely because of this reasoning, that is, each doubted the truth, decided to determine its own truths based on its own thinking because it made better sense. Once an individual decides to write their own prescription for what makes better sense, then the end of truth has arrived, for God being a mystery cannot always make sense to our faulty human mind. Christ precisely laid down a church to teach us what the truth is whether it fits in with our reasoning or not. Therefore we either take it or leave it. No other choice to avoid errors.

May God our Father give you grace and peace.

 

[openmind77]

openmind,
… Probably we will understand things infinitely better once we die, or once out body dies, but while here, we need to develop ourselves spiritually as well as physically …
.

Basically you are saying Bahaullah, the Avatar of the Age, the final Manifestation of God (at least for the next 1000 years) wrote thousands and thousands of tablets but had no explanation for this human condition.

Perhaps your attempt to develop spiritually and physically should also include some search for answers outside those thousands of tablets?

 

[openmind77]

You mentioned that the church changed her teaching on where unbaptised babies go upon death. Not so.

The church has always taught that they haven’t taught anything definitive. The reason for Limbo is that thologians in the church proposed Limbo as one solution to the problem, but the church never required assent to this.

The fact is that we leave this in the hands of the all merciful God.

Pardon me for saying so, but this is just a cop out. Everything is and has always been in the hands of merciful God

The other point about questioning those teachings that don’t make sense also falls into the “not so” category. For instance, just based on reasoning, it doesn’t make a lot of sense that God would die on a cross, or that he would be born in a stable, or that there is three persons in one God, or, or, or…

Actually all these make sense to me:

• God did not die on a cross. The human part of Jesus died on the cross.
• Lots of people are born on the streets in poor countries - nothing that defies common sense
• Three Gods in one is ok too - does not contradict anything else.

But to say that there is even a small, tiny chance that a merciful, loving, just God would send an innocent baby to a place called Limbo for eternity - now that is a contradiction!

Actually, I always thought that the best deal a Catholic could get was to be born, get baptized and then die immediately (maybe someone kills you). Now you are certain to enter heaven for eternity and live in the presence of God for ever - eternal bliss and happiness (I am assuming babies don’t need to go through purgatory?).

… Christ precisely laid down a church to teach us what the truth is whether it fits in with our reasoning or not. …

If Christ indeed said that the church will always teach the truth, why did the church teach that the Earth was flat or that the Sun revolved around it? And would you still believe that, if that was the Church’s teaching?

 

[daler]

Basically you are saying Bahaullah, the Avatar of the Age, the final Manifestation of God (at least for the next 1000 years) wrote thousands and thousands of tablets but had no explanation for this human condition.

Perhaps your attempt to develop spiritually and physically should also include some search for answers outside those thousands of tablets?

openmind,
. Perhaps I misunderstood what you were asking. If it was something specific regarding infants, there was something which I referred to from Abdul Baha which I did not find and quote. If you are asking about the departure of people from this world, as in when we die, Baha’u’llah spoke to this in several of His Writings. Here is one of the references on this subject:

. “Know thou of a truth that the soul, after its separation from the body, will continue to progress until it attaineth the presence of God, in a state and condition which neither the revolution of ages and centuries, nor the changes and chances of this world, can alter. It will endure as long as the Kingdom of God, His sovereignty, His dominion and power will endure. It will manifest the signs of God and His attributes, and will reveal His loving kindness and bounty. The movement of My Pen is stilled when it attempteth to befittingly describe the loftiness and glory of so exalted a station. The honor with which the Hand of Mercy will invest the soul is such as no tongue can adequately reveal, nor any other earthly agency describe. Blessed is the soul which, at the hour of its separation from the body, is sanctified from the vain imaginings of the peoples of the world. Such a soul liveth and moveth in accordance with the Will of its Creator, and entereth the all-highest Paradise. The Maids of Heaven, inmates of the loftiest mansions, will circle around it, and the Prophets of God and His chosen ones will seek its companionship. With them that soul will freely converse, and will recount unto them that which it hath been made to endure in the path of God, the Lord of all worlds. If any man be told that which hath been ordained for such a soul in the worlds of God, the Lord of the throne on high and of earth below, his whole being will instantly blaze out in his great longing to attain that most exalted, that sanctified and resplendent station. … The nature of the soul after death can never be described, nor is it meet and permissible to reveal its whole character to the eyes of men. The Prophets and Messengers of God have been sent down for the sole purpose underlying their revelation hath been to educate all men, that they may, at the hour of death, ascend, in the utmost purity and sanctity and with absolute detachment, to the throne of the Most High. The light which these souls radiate is responsible for the progress of the world and the advancement of its peoples. They are like unto leaven which leaveneth the world of being, and constitute the animating force through which the arts and wonders of the world are made manifest. Through them the clouds rain their bounty upon men, and the earth bringeth forth its fruits. All things must needs have a cause, a motive power, an animating principle. These souls and symbols of detachment have provided, and will continue to provide, the supreme moving impulse in the world of being. The world beyond is as different from this world as this world is different from that of the child while still in the womb of 190 its mother” .— Gleanings from the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 155–157.

I hope this is helpful.

.

 

[Servant19]

Dear brother Vouthon, thank you for your post, very enlightening

Can you (or anyone) offer some insight into how what you say here:

We certainly believe that there have been prophets since the time of Jesus who have been inspired by the Holy Spirit, however our view of prophethood is fairly different from the Islamic conception and indeed the Baha’i. Peter recognized in the Book of Acts that the coming of the Spirit fulfilled the prophecy of Joel: “In the last days . . . I will pour my spirit upon all flesh” (Acts 2:17). The Holy Spirit is present within the heart of every person with the coming of Christ, meaning that we are all called to be ‘prophets’.

(bolded by myself)

…can correlate with the following post written by our brother Fred?

What is wrong is that this denies our believing in a God who is truth itself. The reason we have so many different christian churches is precisely because of this reasoning, that is, each doubted the truth, decided to determine its own truths based on its own thinking because it made better sense. Once an individual decides to write their own prescription for what makes better sense, then the end of truth has arrived, for God being a mystery cannot always make sense to our faulty human mind. Christ precisely laid down a church to teach us what the truth is whether it fits in with our reasoning or not. Therefore we either take it or leave it. No other choice to avoid errors.

May God our Father give you grace and peace.

How can the spirit of God which has been poured out onto “all flesh” find such disunity?

Is the spirit of God a disuniting force?
Are the prophets that you are relating to here (which equates to all lovers of Christ) sources of disparaging disunity?

Lastly, why would we be asked to “test the Spirits” if the passage about true or false Prophets refers to “the holy people of God who share in Christ’s office” (namely all Christians). Why would Christians be required to test the authenticity of spirit of other Christians?

.

 

[daler]

Basically you are saying Bahaullah, the Avatar of the Age, the final Manifestation of God (at least for the next 1000 years) wrote thousands and thousands of tablets but had no explanation for this human condition.

Perhaps your attempt to develop spiritually and physically should also include some search for answers outside those thousands of tablets?

Openmind,
. This may be more to the precise point of your question regarding sick infants, as well as others, who die prematurely: Please let me know if this is closer to your question and what you are looking for. I always hope that you will keep your own independent mind working regardless of any answers offered, whether by me or anyone else.

. “Know thou that the soul of man is exalted above, and is independent of all infirmities of body or mind. That a sick person showeth signs of weakness is due to the hindrances that interpose themselves between his soul and his body, for the soul itself remaineth unaffected by any bodily ailments. Consider the light of the lamp. Though an external object may interfere with its radiance, the light itself continueth to shine with undiminished power. In like manner, every malady afflicting the body of man is an impediment that preventeth the soul from manifesting its inherent might and power. When it leaveth the body, however, it will evince such ascendancy, and reveal such influence as no force on earth can equal. Every pure, every refined and sanctified soul will be endowed with tremendous power, and shall rejoice with exceeding gladness.”

bahaullah.com/bahaullah-writings-soul.html

PS I hope I am not inundating you with more information that you requested. Its just that I sensed my own words were insufficient. Thank you for your consideration.
.

 

[openmind77]

Openmind,
. This may be more to the precise point of your question regarding sick infants, as well as others, who die prematurely: Please let me know if this is closer to your question and what you are looking for. I always hope that you will keep your own independent mind working regardless of any answers offered, whether by me or anyone else.

. “Know thou that the soul of man is exalted above, and is independent of all infirmities of body or mind. That a sick person showeth signs of weakness is due to the hindrances that interpose themselves between his soul and his body, for the soul itself remaineth unaffected by any bodily ailments. Consider the light of the lamp. Though an external object may interfere with its radiance, the light itself continueth to shine with undiminished power. In like manner, every malady afflicting the body of man is an impediment that preventeth the soul from manifesting its inherent might and power. When it leaveth the body, however, it will evince such ascendancy, and reveal such influence as no force on earth can equal. Every pure, every refined and sanctified soul will be endowed with tremendous power, and shall rejoice with exceeding gladness.”

bahaullah.com/bahaullah-writings-soul.html

PS I hope I am not inundating you with more information that you requested. Its just that I sensed my own words were insufficient. Thank you for your consideration.
.

I wish you people would use your own words instead of quoting these long flowery passages. But anyway, what I asked was:

Why are some people born with serious disabilities (like blindness, deafness)?

Why do some die as babies?

How does God choose which ones to afflict with such misfortune?

Jesus’s explanation was: ‘so that the works of God might be displayed in them’ .

What is Bahaullah’s explanation ? (the fact that the soul is unaffected by such maladies is a separate thing).

 

[Servant19]

I wish you people would use your own words instead of quoting these long flowery passages. But anyway, what I asked was:

Why are some people born with serious disabilities (like blindness, deafness)?

Why do some die as babies?

How does God choose which ones to afflict with such misfortune?

Jesus’s explanation was: ‘so that the works of God might be displayed in them’ .

What is Bahaullah’s explanation ? (the fact that the soul is unaffected by such maladies is a separate thing).

First of all open mind one thing that needs to be made clear here is that in Baha’i and Islamic theology what we are experiencing here in our physical bodies is a “lesser” reality to the spiritual reality which is in comparison, “true reality”
We are spiritual beings having a physical experience.

So when you say, “the fact that the soul is unaffected is a separate thing” you have made the first error. The soul is unaffected because the soul is the TRUE REALITY. So if a baby is to lose out on its physical experience, the soul will still exist, actually in a more perfected condition than my soul, for example.

Let me explain.

In the Baha’i Writings (without using flowery language ) you will see the soul of man metaphorically described as a “mirror”. God is REPRESENTED by the Messenger (Jesus, Muhammad, the Bab, Baha’u’llah etc) and we can metaphorically describe Him as the Sun.

When the spark of faith is lit, our mirrors (souls) are TURNED towards the Sun (e.g Baha’u’llah) and reflect its light. We are now showered with all the godly grace and divine susceptibilities.

But, we do have another nature to our humanity, the animalistic, ego-driven aspect, and this is metaphorically described as “dust”.

When we allow the dust, using our free will, to settle upon our mirror, the light of the Sun no longer shines so resplendently, and this reduces the intimacy of our union with our Lord.

When we die, we leave with our mirror in a beautiful, radiant condition, adorned with all the “light” attributes of our Lord, or less so depending on the dust and dross that we have allowed to settle upon our mirrors (souls)

In Baha’i theology, a baby is born with a perfectly clean mirror (the soul is of God and is radiant). Were the baby to die, it will not have had much time to allow the dust of ego, greed and desire to settle upon it. Perfect justice is therefore automated. The baby has no physical experience, but it lives the true reality in the spiritual realm as close as one can get to communing with our Creator.

Now God, does not necessarily want this to happen. He wants to test His servants, and that is the purpose of this physical “experience”

"For with fire we test the gold, and with gold we test Our servants" - Baha’u’llah

However, why do babies die at a premature age?
We are told that whatever happens on the physical realm is as a result of some form of human intervention, sometimes the intervention that causes early death is discovered and known, sometimes the intervention is an unknown one.
But, what Baha’is do know is that any intervention that is outside the scope of the Ordinances/Teachings and Exhortations of the Manifestation of God or Messenger of that age is the root cause of ALL human suffering.

For example, in this day, Baha’u’llah has forbidden the drinking of alcohol. I remember when I was a teenager, everyone looked at me strangely when I said I do not drink. Today, the validity of this teaching of Baha’u’llah is becoming more and more obvious, not only to our own physical health, but more importantly to societal health.

Now, if a teenager dies because he drank himself to death on the weekend, does that make it God’s fault, or the fact that this goes “against” the exhortations of Baha’u’llah?

If a baby dies in the mothers womb because the mother was getting drunk every weekend, is that God’s fault or the fault of turning away from Baha’u’llah’s teachings?

So you see, we are at fault for all our own physical problems.
But Baha’u’llah says that there are unavoidable victims to this “turning away” from God, and the baby in the womb is an example of this, but God in His perfect wisdom has endowed the perfect system whereby justice is always maintained for the wellbeing, ESPECIALLY, the spiritual wellbeing of the victims, which is of paramount importance…

I hope and pray that this assists your search for answers

.

 

[openmind77]

First of all open mind one thing that needs to be made clear here is that in Baha’i and Islamic theology what we are experiencing here in our physical bodies is a “lesser” reality to the spiritual reality which is in comparison, “true reality”
We are spiritual beings having a physical experience.

So when you say, “the fact that the soul is unaffected is a separate thing” you have made the first error. The soul is unaffected because the soul is the TRUE REALITY. So if a baby is to lose out on its physical experience, the soul will still exist, actually in a more perfected condition than my soul, for example.

Let me explain.

In the Baha’i Writings (without using flowery language ) you will see the soul of man metaphorically described as a “mirror”. God is REPRESENTED by the Messenger (Jesus, Muhammad, the Bab, Baha’u’llah etc) and we can metaphorically describe Him as the Sun.

When the spark of faith is lit, our mirrors (souls) are TURNED towards the Sun (e.g Baha’u’llah) and reflect its light. We are now showered with all the godly grace and divine susceptibilities.

But, we do have another nature to our humanity, the animalistic, ego-driven aspect, and this is metaphorically described as “dust”.

When we allow the dust, using our free will, to settle upon our mirror, the light of the Sun no longer shines so resplendently, and this reduces the intimacy of our union with our Lord.

When we die, we leave with our mirror in a beautiful, radiant condition, adorned with all the “light” attributes of our Lord, or less so depending on the dust and dross that we have allowed to settle upon our mirrors (souls)

In Baha’i theology, a baby is born with a perfectly clean mirror (the soul is of God and is radiant). Were the baby to die, it will not have had much time to allow the dust of ego, greed and desire to settle upon it. Perfect justice is therefore automated. The baby has no physical experience, but it lives the true reality in the spiritual realm as close as one can get to communing with our Creator.

Now God, does not necessarily want this to happen. He wants to test His servants, and that is the purpose of this physical “experience”

"For with fire we test the gold, and with gold we test Our servants" - Baha’u’llah

However, why do babies die at a premature age?
We are told that whatever happens on the physical realm is as a result of some form of human intervention, sometimes the intervention that causes early death is discovered and known, sometimes the intervention is an unknown one.
But, what Baha’is do know is that any intervention that is outside the scope of the Ordinances/Teachings and Exhortations of the Manifestation of God or Messenger of that age is the root cause of ALL human suffering.

For example, in this day, Baha’u’llah has forbidden the drinking of alcohol. I remember when I was a teenager, everyone looked at me strangely when I said I do not drink. Today, the validity of this teaching of Baha’u’llah is becoming more and more obvious, not only to our own physical health, but more importantly to societal health.

Now, if a teenager dies because he drank himself to death on the weekend, does that make it God’s fault, or the fact that this goes “against” the exhortations of Baha’u’llah?

If a baby dies in the mothers womb because the mother was getting drunk every weekend, is that God’s fault or the fault of turning away from Baha’u’llah’s teachings?

So you see, we are at fault for all our own physical problems.
But Baha’u’llah says that there are unavoidable victims to this “turning away” from God, and the baby in the womb is an example of this, but God in His perfect wisdom has endowed the perfect system whereby justice is always maintained for the wellbeing, ESPECIALLY, the spiritual wellbeing of the victims, which is of paramount importance…

I hope and pray that this assists your search for answers

.

Actually I was not saying a baby’s death is God’s or anyone’s fault.

However, to summarize your post - if someone is born blind (maybe some genetic defect) - it is because of human intervention? If a baby dies after birth (again maybe some genetic defect) - it is because of human intervention?

Is it all just chance or is there some divine rational reason? Or does Bahaullah think this is too unimportant to address?

(Please skip irrelevant information even if it is important - like what is TRUE Reality)

 

[daler]

Actually I was not saying a baby’s death is God’s or anyone’s fault.

However, to summarize your post - if someone is born blind (maybe some genetic defect) - it is because of human intervention? If a baby dies after birth (again maybe some genetic defect) - it is because of human intervention?

Is it all just chance or is there some divine rational reason? Or does Bahaullah think this is too unimportant to address?

(Please skip irrelevant information even if it is important - like what is TRUE Reality)

openmind,
. Baha’u’llah does speak of the “changes and chances” of this world:

. “Know thou of a truth that the soul, after its separation from the body, will continue to progress until it attaineth the presence of God, in a state and condition which neither the revolution of ages and centuries, nor the changes and chances of this world, can alter.”

reference.bahai.org/en/t/b/GWB/gwb-81.html

. Now let us instead say that the world was without “changes and chances”. That there were no accidents to contend with. What would be left of life? All would be perfect and there would be no abnormalities, no difficulties to overcome.

. Clearly, such a world would not be the one we are experiencing. So let us say that there must be a divine purpose for these “changes and chances” which we may not perceive the wisdom in because we can only observe from this side of the equation. In other words, we are only seeing part of the picture.

. We struggle against these odds, with what capacities we have. If my ancestors camped out near an outcropping of uranium for a few generations, their offspring may well have been affected genetically. If a baby is born near a cliff and falls, suffering severe breakage of a foot or ribs, or skull, these are part of the changes and chances of this world where everything is not fixed and predictable.

. It is such things as drought and cold that keep us moving, even as the wolves keep the elk herds moving. It keeps them healthy, even if they lose the lame and the sick in the process by means of the wolves.

. There is also another aspect to this, and that is our “oneness”, or collective identity. If my children are healthy, but my nephew is autistic, he is still a part of “us”, and we care for him. He is as much a part of my family as a foot is part of my body, or my hand, or rib. Do you follow the logic?

.

 

[openmind77]

openmind,
. Baha’u’llah does speak of the “changes and chances” of this world:

. “Know thou of a truth that the soul, after its separation from the body, will continue to progress until it attaineth the presence of God, in a state and condition which neither the revolution of ages and centuries, nor the changes and chances of this world, can alter.”

reference.bahai.org/en/t/b/GWB/gwb-81.html

. Now let us instead say that the world was without “changes and chances”. That there were no accidents to contend with. What would be left of life? All would be perfect and there would be no abnormalities, no difficulties to overcome.

. Clearly, such a world would not be the one we are experiencing. So let us say that there must be a divine purpose for these “changes and chances” which we may not perceive the wisdom in because we can only observe from this side of the equation. In other words, we are only seeing part of the picture.

. We struggle against these odds, with what capacities we have. If my ancestors camped out near an outcropping of uranium for a few generations, their offspring may well have been affected genetically. If a baby is born near a cliff and falls, suffering severe breakage of a foot or ribs, or skull, these are part of the changes and chances of this world where everything is not fixed and predictable.

. It is such things as drought and cold that keep us moving, even as the wolves keep the elk herds moving. It keeps them healthy, even if they lose the lame and the sick in the process by means of the wolves.

. There is also another aspect to this, and that is our “oneness”, or collective identity. If my children are healthy, but my nephew is autistic, he is still a part of “us”, and we care for him. He is as much a part of my family as a foot is part of my body, or my hand, or rib. Do you follow the logic?

.

Let me summarize what you said: You or Bahaullah seem have no idea why these things happen or Bahaullah thought we should wait at least a thousand more years before we found out.

So why is your nephew autistic - because he is like your foot? Purely chance? Draw of the luck? Does God really play dice? (BTW, babies can have birth defects due to random mutations which have absolutely nothing to do with uranium or any pollution near by).

 

[Servant19]

Let me summarize what you said: You or Bahaullah seem have no idea why these things happen or Bahaullah thought we should wait at least a thousand more years before we found out.

So why is your nephew autistic - because he is like your foot? Purely chance? Draw of the luck? Does God really play dice? (BTW, babies can have birth defects due to random mutations which have absolutely nothing to do with uranium or any pollution near by).

Dear friend, all genetic disorders occur as a result of some form of mutation which occurred as a result of mainly environmental factors.

In regards to autism, according to recent research there are numerous environmental factors noted:

“Teratogens are environmental agents that cause birth defects. Some agents that are theorized to cause other birth defects have also been suggested as potential autism risk factors, although there is little to no scientific evidence to back such claims. These include exposure of the embryo to thalidomide, valproic acid, or misoprostol. These cases are rare. Questions have also been raised whether ethanol (grain alcohol) increases autism risk, as part of fetal alcohol syndrome or alcohol-related birth defects. All known teratogens appear to act during the first eight weeks from conception, and though this does not exclude the possibility that autism can be initiated or affected later, it is strong evidence that autism arises very early in development”

• Dufour-Rainfray D, Vourc’h P, Tourlet S, Guilloteau D, Chalon S, Andres CR. Fetal exposure to teratogens: evidence of genes involved in autism. Neurosci Biobehav Rev. 2011;35(5):1254–65.
• Christison GW, Ivany K. Elimination diets in autism spectrum disorders: any wheat amidst the chaff? J Dev Behav Pediatr. 2006;27(2 Suppl 2):S162–71.
• Miller MT, Strömland K, Ventura L, Johansson M, Bandim JM, Gillberg C. Autism associated with conditions characterized by developmental errors in early embryogenesis: a mini review. Int. J. Dev. Neurosci… 2005;23(2-3):201–19

This is the same for ALL genetically based defects.

Environmental problems which affect the fetus, such as “thalidomide, valproic acid, or misoprostol” in the case of autism, are all toxins introduced into the body because the medical industry is going DIRECTLY against some of the teachings of Baha’u’llah revealed in His Tablet of Medicine and other realted Tablets, and as extended by the Writings of His son, Abdu’l-Baha.

I have no doubt that the World Order as envisaged by Baha’u’llah will enable human beings to live to 200+ years on this earthly plane…

.

 

[openmind77]

Dear friend, all genetic disorders occur as a result of some form of mutation which occurred as a result of mainly environmental factors.

In regards to autism, according to recent research there are numerous environmental factors noted:

Of course it is mainly environmental, who ever said otherwise? BTW would you consider cosmic radiation (from outside the earth’s atmosphere) - an environmental factor ?

This is the same for ALL genetically based defects.

Environmental problems which affect the fetus, such as “thalidomide, valproic acid, or misoprostol” in the case of autism, are all toxins introduced into the body because the medical industry is going DIRECTLY against some of the teachings of Baha’u’llah revealed in His Tablet of Medicine and other realted Tablets, and as extended by the Writings of His son, Abdu’l-Baha.

I have no doubt that the World Order as envisaged by Baha’u’llah will enable human beings to live to 200+ years on this earthly plane…
.

We are not talking about how to live a long life here.

I am saying that you or Bahaullah have no idea why misfortunes befall completely innocent people (like babies) just by chance or circumstance. Why is God so unjust as to allow these things to happen - many of them seemingly completely at random?

Ok, to get back to Jesus - he was asked why a man was born blind and he explained that is was to ’ so that the works of God might be displayed in him’. What would be Bahaullah’s explanation? Basically he would have avoided the question, just like you are?

 

[Servant19]

Of course it is mainly environmental, who ever said otherwise? BTW would you consider cosmic radiation (from outside the earth’s atmosphere) - an environmental factor ?

We are not talking about how to live a long life here.

I am saying that you or Bahaullah have no idea why misfortunes befall completely innocent people (like babies) just by chance or circumstance. Why is God so unjust as to allow these things to happen - many of them seemingly completely at random?

Its not injustice when He has given us Baha’u’llah and we reject Him. Its perfect justice.

You are basically saying that when you purcahse a table from IKEA with instructions on how to construct it, that if you IGNORE and REJECT the instructions, that it is an injustice if the table falls apart and collapses…

Logic, my friend

 

[daler]

Let me summarize what you said: You or Bahaullah seem have no idea why these things happen or Bahaullah thought we should wait at least a thousand more years before we found out.

So why is your nephew autistic - because he is like your foot? Purely chance? Draw of the luck? Does God really play dice? (BTW, babies can have birth defects due to random mutations which have absolutely nothing to do with uranium or any pollution near by).

openmind,
. I feel like you’re not hearing, or I’m not communicating effectively, or maybe we’re just talking past each other. The universe is not a “fixed” predictable system where mommy takes care of everything. Thats not this world, but a fantasy. Reality has, as you say, randomness built into it. Its “Alive!” Its moving and full of curve balls by design, in my estimation. If it were perfectly predictable, we could be in control and no longer dependent upon God.

. I think you are projecting too much onto Baha’u’llah, as though you want Him to fit your notion of Who He is and ought to be. To me, this is a deficiency on your part. He is Who He is, the Manifestation of God for this age. He is not our trick magician, here to satisfy our demands for entertainment or diversion. Rather, He is the embodiment of “He doeth what He willeth.” which refers to God does as He does, and it is to our behoof that we accept God’s will and reign in our ego and restrain our pride.

. “The humble will see their God at work and be glad. Let all who seek God’s help live in joy.” Psalms 69:32

. This isn’t to preach, but to illustrate that it is only through humility before God are we given access to Him. Pride is the opposite of that. If we are born with one leg or a bad chromosome due to random mutation, that is part of how the universe works.

. When you say, “What? Do we have to wait another thousand years for the answer?” That sounds to me that you haven’t read very much of Baha’u’llah’s Writings, which are an ocean when compared to the pools of all past Revelation.

. “Immerse yourselves in the ocean of My words, that ye may unravel its secrets, and discover all the pearls of wisdom that lie hid in its depths.”

reference.bahai.org/en/t/b/PB/pb-63.html

. It is a two-stage process: to “immerse” oneself in this ocean and to “unravel” its secrets. I can’t do either one for you.

.