Why do you feel socialism is bad?

[PlipPlop]

Hello there! I’m a supporter of the United States becoming a socialist democracy, and having systems such as socialized health care.

Looking over this forum, most (if not all) of the members are strongly anti-socialist. Why?

Note: I do understand that abortion is evil if not done for (both physical and mental) medicinal reasons. If abortion is not funded, at all, would you be in favor of it?

 

[HickmanJosh]

Well The USSR was socialist and they weren’t exactly nice when it came to freedom of religion, the same is true for almost any communist nation.

Abortion is only morally viable if the mothers life is in danger. Even then it is one life for another.

 

[PlipPlop]

The USSR, China, and North Korea are the examples usually trotted out by anti-Socialists. It is what I expected.

Socialism and communism are not the same, sorry. Communism belongs in the same category as Libertarianism and Anarchy: nice idea, but wouldn’t actually work outside of theory.

Anyway, I usually counter with Sweden. Sweden is happier, healthier, freer, and wealthier than the United States. They’re also socialist.

Also, regarding abortion: what if the baby’s life is in danger? What if the baby will only live for, say, 5 days, maximum? What if rape occurred? Rape comes under mental reasons. I’m not a mother, and I will never be a mother (pretty sure it’s impossible ), but wouldn’t a woman who was forced to have a baby be resentful of it? It seems like an awfully cruel existence to be unwanted by your own mother.

I don’t disagree that getting an abortion because you don’t like the gender that the baby is, because you changed your mind, and so on is murder, however.

Pro-abortionists will often say “but it’s not murder, because the fetus isn’t alive yet!” Well, we don’t know exactly when a fetus becomes alive. To avoid destroying that precious life, abortion should be avoided.

P.S. I’m sorry if I appear disrespectful. I do not mean to insult your beliefs, but I don’t agree with them. If you feel I step out of line, please don’t hesitate to tell me why. I can only learn from my mistakes if I know I make them.

 

[st_lucy]

Also, regarding abortion: what if the baby’s life is in danger? What if the baby will only live for, say, 5 days, maximum? What if rape occurred? Rape comes under mental reasons. I’m not a mother, and I will never be a mother (pretty sure it’s impossible ), but wouldn’t a woman who was forced to have a baby be resentful of it? It seems like an awfully cruel existence to be unwanted by your own mother.

And are any of these real reasons to kill some one?

You stated that if a baby’s life is in danger. I cannot think of any thing more dangerious than having your limbs torn off one by one.

You stated what if the baby lives for only five days. Well, again I am sure he should not have his arms ripped out because of how long his life span might be.

You stated that in a case of rape. Well, why would you condemn the child to death because of what his father did.

 

[PlipPlop]

I answered in my post. However, could we please go back to socialism please?

 

[st_lucy]

I answered in my post. However, could we please go back to socialism please?

Well because we live in america and not in france if you like so much why don’t you go there.

We actually like to work for our stuff here. That is what makes it such a great country.

 

[Robert_Bay]

Theads in this sub-forum require a link to a recent news story in the 1st post. If someone can send me a link, I will update the post and reopen the thread.

 

[PlipPlop]

Thanks Bay.

Lucy: if done properly, a socialist government would both provide for the less fortunate and give an incentive (as well as opportunities) to rise by personal means.

 

[TenBobNote]

I believe socialism is bad because, at its very root, it is steeling from one man and giving to another by threat of force and incarceration. It is the cheapest kind of “giving” to another because in wanting socialism you claim that people are so inept at giving themselves that you say only politician can give the people what is right, this however, has not and never will work. The politicians will inevitably use their power for personal gain. The system itself will generously allow for inefficiencies because it is not their money they are spending, how many government programs can you claim to be efficient?

 

[Vasian]

Sweden is not a Socialist country.

Apples and oranges in comparing the U.S. to Sweden.

Sweden’s population is 9 million.

The U.S. is over THREE HUNDRED million.

Sweden is a monarchy, a governmental structure very far from socialism and from the American ideal that all people are created equal.

“The problem with Socialism is that you eventually run out of other people’s money…” M. Thatcher

 

[Vasian]

so⋅cial⋅ism

–noun

1. a theory or system of social organization that advocates the vesting of the ownership and control of the means of production and distribution, of capital, land, etc., in the community as a whole.
2. procedure or practice in accordance with this theory.
3. (in Marxist theory) the stage following capitalism in the transition of a society to communism, characterized by the imperfect implementation of collectivist principles.

dictionary.reference.com/browse/socialism

 

[PlipPlop]

Socialism is only stealing as much as taxation is stealing, and as far as that goes…
“Render unto Caesar the things which are Caesar’s”.

Also, the monarchist system of Sweden is vestigial. The king and queen have no real power. Sweden’s a democracy. However, if the name is really all that important to you, let’s switch to Iceland!

And I believe equality is better served under socialism than our current system.

Note: to the misguided ones among you, socialism and communism are not the same.

 

[wabrams]

Also, regarding abortion: what if the baby’s life is in danger? What if the baby will only live for, say, 5 days, maximum? What if rape occurred? Rape comes under mental reasons. I’m not a mother, and I will never be a mother (pretty sure it’s impossible ), but wouldn’t a woman who was forced to have a baby be resentful of it? It seems like an awfully cruel existence to be unwanted by your own mother.

A majority of women who are raped and get an abortion have far worse mental health issues than those that go through with having the baby. Plus, if you abort a baby who is the product of rape, you have now created a second victim who also had no say in the matter. With regards to being resentful, there are more than enough people willing to adopt that child the minute he/she comes into this world.

Pro-abortionists will often say “but it’s not murder, because the fetus isn’t alive yet!” Well, we don’t know exactly when a fetus becomes alive. To avoid destroying that precious life, abortion should be avoided.

We know exactly when life starts: fertilization of the egg. At that point the cells start rapidly dividing. That is life.

Socialism is only stealing as much as taxation is stealing, and as far as that goes…
“Render unto Caesar the things which are Caesar’s”.

And render unto God what is God’s.

And I believe equality is better served under socialism than our current system.

Socialsim by its very nature removes equality by taking from those who have worked hard for what they have and giving it to those who haven’t. Our Democratic Republic has written in the Constitution that “All men are created equal” and have a right to “Pursue life, liberty and happiness.” I know people that are rich who came from dirt poor poverty while others they grew up with stayed in poverty. They both had equal opportunities and only one took advantage of it. I’m not saying the goal is to be rich, but you can pull yourself out of poverty when you ahve a system where all are treated equal.

Note: to the misguided ones among you, socialism and communism are not the same.

You are right, they aren’t; but socialism is the pit stop on the road to communism.

 

[Brendan]

Socialism is only stealing as much as taxation is stealing, and as far as that goes…
“Render unto Caesar the things which are Caesar’s”…

But Charity, which is care for the poor, the sick etc… is God’s. So Christ’s command was to give that to God, not Cesear.

 

[Highwayhound]

First let me ask if when you use the word “feel” did you mean or intend “think”? I ask because I want to understand your position clearly.

Thanks Bay.

Lucy: if done properly, a socialist government would both provide for the less fortunate and give an incentive (as well as opportunities) to rise by personal means.

First, on what basis do you make this claim? Second, I have never needed a government to provide me incentive. Third, can you provide an example of what you mean by “it being done properly”

Socialism is only stealing as much as taxation is stealing, and as far as that goes…
“Render unto Caesar the things which are Caesar’s”.

We are to pay taxes because we live in a community, and that does benefit us. We are also not supposed to let government trample on God, or a leader become a diety such as Caesar wanted to be. This is a big problem with government types in general. Eventually they start believing they know best for everyone else. I prefer to exercise my God given free will of my own accord.

And I believe equality is better served under socialism than our current system.

An example please?

Note: to the misguided ones among you, socialism and communism are not the same.

Was the first part of this note necessary?

I would contend that in the end, despite any differences offered on paper or in words, that both forms offer the same result. That result being less of my free will being allowed to be used. I cherish my free will as it is a gift from God.

God bless

 

[PlipPlop]

Okay, maybe I was wrong about the abortion. I’m just going to set that to the side for another day.

Highwayhound, I didn’t say you needed the government to provide incentive. What I was saying was that the government doesn’t discourage you from rising through work.

So, if I am to understand you fellows correctly … taxes aren’t owed to the government? You realize that those taxes pay for Medicare, and the VA, and roads, right?

Socialism gives a helping hand to those who need it. It helps more people to better your situation. How is that not equality?

Don’t be offended by the “misguided” thing. If you believe something that is false, or do not understand something properly, it means you are misguided. That’s all. I really didn’t mean to be offensive, sorry.

Highwayhound, are you sure about socialism taking away from freedom?

Here is the “Democracy Index”, which is a good indicator of which countries are the freest. Notice how the top ones are socialist.

Here is a list of which countries give the most freedom of the press. Wait! Those countries are socialist too!

Here are the account balances of quite a few countries.
Here are the happiest countries in the world.

Notice a pattern?

EDIT: this is completely unrelated, but I like the sheep in Brendan’s signature.

 

[wabrams]

Highwayhound, I didn’t say you needed the government to provide incentive. What I was saying was that the government doesn’t discourage you from rising through work.

What incentive is there to do very well when the government will just take an exceptionally large portion of my earnings?

So, if I am to understand you fellows correctly … taxes aren’t owed to the government? You realize that those taxes pay for Medicare, and the VA, and roads, right?

No one is saying that; we just feel the government doesn’t need as much in taxes as they take b/c they are wasteful in spending. More taxes for more social programs equals more waste and less money to those in need.

Socialism gives a helping hand to those who need it. It helps more people to better your situation. How is that not equality?

Because it takes away a disproportionate amount from someone else. Government is no where near as effective as charitable organizations.

Highwayhound, are you sure about socialism taking away from freedom?

Have you ever read a history book? Look at Russia, Germany, UK.

Here is the “Democracy Index”, which is a good indicator of which countries are the freest. Notice how the top ones are socialist.

From the article:

the democracy index is a kind of weighted average based on the answers of 60 questions, each one with either two or three permitted alternative answers. Most answers are “experts’ assessments”; the report does not indicate what kinds of experts, nor their number, nor whether the experts are employees of The Economist or e.g. independent scholars, nor the nationalities of the experts. Some answers are provided by public opinion surveys from the respective countries. “In the case of countries for which survey results are missing, survey results for similar countries and expert assessments are used in order to fill in gaps.”

Not a very scientific study, so it means nothing.

Here is a list of which countries give the most freedom of the press. Wait! Those countries are socialist too!

Here are the account balances of quite a few countries.
Here are the happiest countries in the world.

Notice a pattern?

After having your freedoms stripped away over several generations, people get complacent and don’t care about the freedoms they have lost. The difference between subjects and citizens.

 

[nsper7]

In short, the answer to the question is because socialism does not work out in the long run.

To paraphrase former British Prime Minister Margaret Thatcher, [Socialism works as long as you have other people’s money to spend]. My understanding is that Europe is turning away from its socialistic ways, even if only a little by little, because it cannot afford the Welfare State. Britain is almost bankrupt financially and its National Health Service has major problems and is actually starting to charge people for certain things.

Socialist countries can tend to stagnate economically because people see no reason to be innovative and the largest growing ‘business’ ends up being government which the only thing it usually produces is paper…and copious amounts of it. You still have ‘haves’ and ‘have-nots’ in a socialist system, but it often becomes a case of gaming and playing the system (look at the bureaucracy in America: it is inefficient and expensive because the State does not have to worry about maintaining a profit or pleasing its customers, but a lot of people derive their income from this bureaucracy).

In the end, the Welfare State is unaffordable. You either have massive taxes which stagnates the economy (why invest and take risks and work hard if much of it just ends up in the hands of bureaucrats) or you have inflation (the State just decides to print money and increase the public debt).

Also, I believe of the more socialist countries tend to have a real low percentage of Christians.

 

[exoflare]

“Why do you feel socialism is bad?”

Because it doesn’t work.

 

[PlipPlop]

“Why do you feel socialism is bad?”

Because it doesn’t work.

Okay. Give proof. I’ve given (what I consider to be) sufficient proof, and you folk have ignored or rejected it.

Give me proof that socialism does not work.

And please don’t say “USSR! NAZI GERMANY!” - no one (sane) says those were good. Prove to me that a socialist democracy does not work.

Good luck.