Why do you feel socialism is bad?

[Frenchmen]

Pepin,

hello from fellow Canadian

Actually what the people in US don’t really understand is that free health car is not socialism!
UK, Denmark , Germany, Sweden, France, Norwegian, Spain and of course Canada have a free health car system and non of this countries are communist or socialist!
Actually the US are the only rich country in the world without it
At least 40% of the population there have not health insurance.
Even people with health insurance dies because the insurance companies refuse to pay for their treatment because of “preexisting conditions”
So let’s be clear once and forever - We are no socialists here in Canada but we are very social country which is not the same!

GodLovesTheSpek, in Canada people donated not only on the telethon too… Here we have the UNICEF, the RED CROSS, the Churches etc…
Plus I don’t see His Holiness Pope Pius XI to say something against free health care system or public welfare
Au contraire The Catholic Church ALWAYS did support and create hospitals orphanages, did take car of the poor and sick

Read what His Holiness Says about the social justice in the QUADRAGESIMO ANNO that you posted link for

“…We, of course, do not deny that even before the Encyclical of Leo, some rulers of peoples have provided for certain of the more urgent needs of the workers and curbed more flagrant acts of injustice inflicted upon them. But after the Apostolic voice had sounded from the Chair of Peter throughout the world, rulers of nations, more fully alive at last to their duty, devoted their minds and attention to the task of promoting a more comprehensive and fruitful social policy…”

Something to say about this one?

jimpres the communism in Poland came in 1945 with the soviet red army and finish in 1989 with the democrats - what 150 years??? Now everybody in Poland speak polish I have friends there!!! What are you talking about!!!

sedonaman you make me even more proud that I am a Canadian.

CPA2 View Post
“An economic miracle happens when governments get out of the way of working people…”
Yeas… the present deep economical crises in the US is a “very good” example for that

And finally I want to comment that I agree 100% with
“…no one can be at the same time a good Catholic and a true socialist…”
But I get the impression that a lot off people in the US just search for excuses against the social (not socialist!!!) government
No one can be a selfish-men and good Catholic too

and I noticed, lot of you fellows are very rood when somebody don’t agree with your opinion, which is not very Catholic too
Be polite:thumbsup: It will make you feel better

 

[CPA2]

I, Pencil
My Family Tree as told by Leonard E. Read

Once government has had a monopoly of a creative activity such, for instance, as the delivery of the mails, most individuals will believe that the mails could not be efficiently delivered by men acting freely. And here is the reason: Each one acknowledges that he himself doesn’t know how to do all the things incident to mail delivery. He also recognizes that no other individual could do it. These assumptions are correct. No individual possesses enough know-how to perform a nation’s mail delivery any more than any individual possesses enough know-how to make a pencil. Now, in the absence of a faith in free men–in the unawareness that millions of tiny know-hows would naturally and miraculously form and cooperate to satisfy this necessity–the individual cannot help but reach the erroneous conclusion that mail can be delivered only by governmental"master-minding."

If I, Pencil, were the only item that could offer testimony on what men can accomplish when free to try, then those with little faith would have a fair case. However, there is testimony galore; it’s all about us and on every hand. Mail delivery is exceedingly simple when compared, for instance, to the making of an automobile or a calculating machine or a grain combine or a milling machine or to tens of thousands of other things. Delivery? Why, in this area where men have been left free to try, they deliver the human voice around the world in less than one second; they deliver an event visually and in motion to any person’s home when it is happening; they deliver 150 passengers from Seattle to Baltimore in less than four hours; they deliver gas from Texas to one’s range or furnace in New York at unbelievably low rates and without subsidy; they deliver each four pounds of oil from the Persian Gulf to our Eastern Seaboard–halfway around the world–for less money than the government charges for delivering a one-ounce letter across the street!

The lesson I have to teach is this: Leave all creative energies uninhibited. Merely organize society to act in harmony with this lesson. Let society’s legal apparatus remove all obstacles the best it can. Permit these creative know-hows freely to flow. Have faith that free men will respond to the Invisible Hand. This faith will be confirmed. I, Pencil, seemingly simple though I am, offer the miracle of my creation as testimony that this is a practical faith, as practical as the sun, the rain, a cedar tree, the good earth.

---

 

[ComputerGeek25]

At least 40% of the population there have not health insurance.

I don’t know where you get your propoganda from, but this is false.

 

[jimpres]

There are about 10% who do not have health insurance in the US. About 30 million.
Many don’t buy it, many are here illegally. Most want the handouts.

 

[qui_est_ce]

I don’t think that they had strawberries in Serbia or Socialist Yugoslavia.

Why not? The climate is right.

 

[qui_est_ce]

Did Jesus ever add “but only do this until there are government programs, and then only care about yourselves”?

Nobody here who is against government mandated health insurance has said that, nor believes that.

Another question: if you do not want to be forced to give, then why do you not give when you are not forced?

That’s very presumptuous of you. Have you looked at the figures from Catholic Charites? Our church collected over $4,000.00 on the first Sunday after the earthquake. No cost, no phones, no celebrities. Nobody forced us.

Example: we had telethons in both Canada and the US now, for Haiti. The Canadians (a bot more than 30 million people) donated $13 500 000. The American (300 000 000, 10 times more), donated only $60 000 000. This means that, per capita, the Americans donated less than half of what Canadians did. The reason? You need to be taught to give to your neighbor, from an early age, which you obviously don’t know how to do.

The telethon was a little late and a $$ short. American Catholics are the most generous people in the world. We don’t need the government to do our charity for us.

 

[Seeker100]

Socialism is the only form of government that really meet the needs of the people. I am not talking Communism. Communism is too extreme. Likewise pure Capitalism is too extreme as well. Socialism is perfect as the society as a whole meets the basic needs of its population while allowing the innovation of free enterprise to succeed.

Canada and Europe are good examples of Socialism (In how I term it anyways). Socialism developes the most important resource of a nation, its people.

United States is very blessed to have a president that is trying to bring in what I would call is socialism. The poor of United States have been oppressed for so long. It is time for United States to end this oppression of its poor and especially the Blacks. It is time for United States to catch up with the rest of the developed world and live up to its creed of being a nation under God by accepting Socialism.

 

[sedonaman]

In the ways posited by the father of Socialism and Communism, Mr. Karl Marx. Karl Marx said that communism would be the final stage in society, which would be possible after a socialist stage develops the productive forces. Actrually, China today is more socialist.

But if communism is the final stage in society, how is it that China went from communism to socialism? Sounds like their next step is capitalism, i.e., Marx in reverse.

 

[sedonaman]

Did Jesus ever add “but only do this until there are government programs, and then only care about yourselves”?

So paying taxes to support all those government programs that are supposed to “help” people doesn’t count? Did Jesus say, “Support crooked government charity programs”?

Another question: if you do not want to be forced to give, then why do you not give when you are not forced?

So individual charity didn’t exist until “Light Bulb” Johnson created “The Great Society” in 1965?

Example: we had telethons in both Canada and the US now, for Haiti. The Canadians (a bot more than 30 million people) donated $13 500 000. The American (300 000 000, 10 times more), donated only $60 000 000. This means that, per capita, the Americans donated less than half of what Canadians did. The reason?

Those are telethons, which are a small part of the total donations. I can play the same game. Why don’t you count the money collected by the various churches and all other private charities?

You need to be taught to give to your neighbor, from an early age, which you obviously don’t know how to do.

I don’t need any lectures from you. You don’t know anything about me or my giving pattern. How much do you think the money collected by the government actually reaches “the poor”? If you are such a devoted advocate of forced giving, prove to me that at least 85% [the government’s own guideline] of the government’s take actually reaches those it is intended for.

Jesus also condemned hypocrites, and you need to be taught a lesson in political reality.

There is a charity gap between the compassion that politicians say they have for the poor, and what they actually give of their own. Like many Democrats, Sen. John Kerry excels at compassion rhetoric. His campaign literature abounds with references to all the good causes he supports: assistance for the elderly, jobs for at-risk teenagers, treatment for sick veterans, aid to struggling fishermen, even baseball for handicapped kids. When he formally announced for re-election last month, he described the campaign as a clash between those who advocate “turning against each other and those who still believe we can triumph by turning to each other:” His income tax records show that in the years 1990-95 an income of $724,042 and a total charity donation of $4,869. In fact, during that same time period, my income was much smaller, but my per cent of donations was much higher. Why? 0bama was no different until he ran for national office. Only until then did he start donating to charity:

http://taxprof.typepad.com/.a/6a00d8341c4eab53ef01156f2b2bd5970c-450wi

Biden’s was even worse:

http://taxprof.typepad.com/.a/6a00d8341c4eab53ef01156f2b2c38970c-450wi

Seems that liberal/Leftist politicians are better at spending other peoples’ money than they are of own. Which brings me around to my final point: Those politicians are hyping government programs merely for a power grab, AKA, “The ‘Golden’ Rule”, or “He who holds the gold rules.”

Why do you support this hypocrisy?

 

[sedonaman]

Socialism is the only form of government that really meet the needs of the people. I am not talking Communism. Communism is too extreme. Likewise pure Capitalism is too extreme as well. Socialism is perfect as the society as a whole meets the basic needs of its population while allowing the innovation of free enterprise to succeed.

Canada and Europe are good examples of Socialism (In how I term it anyways). Socialism developes the most important resource of a nation, its people.

United States is very blessed to have a president that is trying to bring in what I would call is socialism. The poor of United States have been oppressed for so long. It is time for United States to end this oppression of its poor and especially the Blacks. It is time for United States to catch up with the rest of the developed world and live up to its creed of being a nation under God by accepting Socialism.

Socialism is a good idea … except no one has figured out how to pay for it. Other than that, it’s a good idea.

 

[qui_est_ce]

But if communism is the final stage in society, how is it that China went from communism to socialism? Sounds like their next step is capitalism, i.e., Marx in reverse.

 

[qui_est_ce]

Those are telethons, which are a small part of the total donations. I can play the same game. Why don’t you count the money collected by the various churches and all other private charities?

I don’t need any lectures from you. You don’t know anything about me or my giving pattern. How much do you think the money collected by the government actually reaches “the poor”? If you are such a devoted advocate of forced giving, prove to me that at least 85% [the government’s own guideline] of the government’s take actually reaches those it is intended for.

Jesus also condemned hypocrites, and you need to be taught a lesson in political reality.

http://taxprof.typepad.com/.a/6a00d8341c4eab53ef01156f2b2bd5970c-450wi

Biden’s was even worse:

http://taxprof.typepad.com/.a/6a00d8341c4eab53ef01156f2b2c38970c-450wi

Seems that liberal/Leftist politicians are better at spending other peoples’ money than they are of own. Which brings me around to my final point: Those politicians are hyping government programs merely for a power grab, AKA, “The ‘Golden’ Rule”, or “He who holds the gold rules.”

Why do you support this hypocrisy?

I give more than the numbers in most of those years and I make less than $40,000/year!!!

Do you have statistics on Haiti donations for US?

 

[sedonaman]

I give more than the numbers in most of those years and I make less than $40,000/year!!!

And how does this answer my question of why do you support such hypocrisy?

Do you have statistics on Haiti donations for US?

They are unknowable. Take just one example: How do you put a price on sending an aircraft carrier down there to supply medical care, electricity, water, and food?

BTW, where are Canada’s aircraft carriers?

 

[qui_est_ce]

And how does this answer my question of why do you support such hypocrisy?

I do not.

They are unknowable. Take just one example: How do you put a price on sending an aircraft carrier down there to supply medical care, electricity, water, and food?

BTW, where are Canada’s aircraft carriers?

I was curious as to many dollars were donated to CRS vs the telethon. Pepin accused someone here of not wanting to help the poor and being unChristian because he/she didn’t support government wealth redistribution.

 

[Seeker100]

Socialism is a good idea … except no one has figured out how to pay for it. Other than that, it’s a good idea.

Well I have a sugestion. Instead of spending trillions of dollars on the military, illegally invading, occupying, killing, maming, raping and torturing people, put the money into education and health care for all of your nation’s citizens. Heck doing that would help reduce the crime rate too and create much more stable healthy society. Win win for everyone! Obama’s social progams are VERY GOOD for your country.

 

[qui_est_ce]

Well I have a sugestion. Instead of spending trillions of dollars on the military, illegally invading, occupying, killing, maming, raping and torturing people, put the money into education and health care for all of your nation’s citizens. Heck doing that would help reduce the crime rate too and create much more stable healthy society. Win win for everyone! Obama’s social progams are VERY GOOD for your country.

I’m happy you Canadians have figured out how to solve USA’s problems. Good thing we have a strong military, because 9/11 won’t happen to you as long as the US isn’t brought under Al Qaida’s control.

France, England, the Netherlands, Finland, Denmark, Sweden, Austria are free from Nazi domination thanks to our “killing, raping, maiming, and torturing” people military.

I mean, Hitler told Great Britain he wanted peace. Just give in to him and he won’t declare war on you. Darned Brits finally stood up to him and got blitzkrieged to pieces.

Or am I missing all the happy, happy, I want peace and the US wants war because the US is a big evil monster that makes those peace-loving Iranians need to build up nuclear arms and kill their own citizens.?

 

[Seeker100]

I’m happy you Canadians have figured out how to solve USA’s problems. Good thing we have a strong military, because 9/11 won’t happen to you as long as the US isn’t brought under Al Qaida’s control.

France, England, the Netherlands, Finland, Denmark, Sweden, Austria are free from Nazi domination thanks to our “killing, raping, maiming, and torturing” people military.

I mean, Hitler told Great Britain he wanted peace. Just give in to him and he won’t declare war on you. Darned Brits finally stood up to him and got blitzkrieged to pieces.

Or am I missing all the happy, happy, I want peace and the US wants war because the US is a big evil monster that makes those peace-loving Iranians need to build up nuclear arms and kill their own citizens.?

Canada almost did have its own 9/11. Fortunately our RCMP (Royal Canadian Mounted Police) and other Canadian security forces stopped the attack. The perpetrators sentencing has been on the news last week.

You guys don’t need to worry about Al Quida controlling you. With the absent of any plane at the pentagon and lots of thermite at the twin towers and the demolition of building 7 it looks like Al Quida is well under US control.

World War II was a united effort by many nations including yours, Canada, Great Britain, Australia and many others, to stop tyranny. Since world war II, Canada and the Western European nations have used their hard won freedom to set up social programs to develop their people. United States needs to catch up. I hope Obama is able to bring the freedom to the American people through his social programs, that the rest of the western democracies enjoy.

 

[Seeker100]

…

 

[Scout1441]

I was not able to read all answers, don’t have the time, but just to share my 2 cents:
I don’t see anything bad in a government that helps people. Take a look at Canada, for example - we have some of the highest life standards in the world, the economic crisis didn’t hit us here as hard as in the US precisely because the government makes it its business to regulate most things, including the banking system - and this is what prevented such a horrible crisis here. Besides, even people who lose their jobs here have a chance of getting unemployment for a longer period of time that in the US, giving them a better chance of finding another job without losing their homes and everything they own. And if they are unable to find a job, then there’s welfare, and programs to help people find a job. The government health care system is for everyone, and no one complains of the fact that he/she needs to pay higher taxes because we know that this helps disadvantaged people.

On a strictly Christian basis, however, I can NEVER understand people who call themselves Christian, but speak about how “the last thing you want is fewer poor people”. I’m sorry if this seems harsh, but this sounds HORRIBLE!! It seems as we have forgotten what Christ taught us, things like:
“If I speak with the tongues of men, and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal.”
“And if I should have prophecy and should know all mysteries, and all knowledge, and if I should have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing.”…

The Corporal Works of Mercy call on us to feed the hungry, give drink to the thirsty, clothe the naked, harbor the homeless, visit the sick, ransom the captive, and bury the dead. These works are bestowed upon the individual to act mercifully for the benefit of fellow man. In keeping with the principle of subsidarity, the fulfillment of human needs begins at the lowest possible level; the individual. Government intervention in social welfare should be the last resort.
There are seven core principles of Catholic Social Teaching. However, state intervention, and, unfortunately, often with the support of certain groups within the Catholic Church, has left them in shambles. For instance, Holy Mother Church proclaims that human life from conception to a natural death and the dignity of the human person is the moral vision for society. Sadly, rights for women have now morphed into abortion rights
In 1964, President Lyndon Johnson began pushing his “Great Society” programs which were designed to eliminate poverty and raise the standard of living of the poor. Parts of this legislation were noteworthy, such as eliminating unfair practices like poll taxes. These programs, however, put over 50% of Americans on some sort of financial entitlement. I credit it with undermining the family, especially in certain minority sectors, by creating a seemingly never-ending cycle as generation after generation remain trapped in poverty and on the public dole. As much as America has done for the poor, we are beginning to realize that there will always be poor people. In Matthew 26 and John 12, Jesus tells us that “you will always have the poor with you.”

 

[sedonaman]

Well I have a sugestion. Instead of spending trillions of dollars on the military, illegally invading, occupying, killing, maming, raping and torturing people, put the money into education and health care for all of your nation’s citizens. …

Say, that’s an original idea. Did you know there’s a job waiting for you in Washington?

There is NO shortage of educational opportunities in this country. Our society, through government, has established a K-12 public educational system throughout the country. There is even night school for those who did not finish high school. There are community colleges that offer remedial instruction, vocational courses, and transfer-level courses to four-year colleges. The only requirements for admission are, a) a body temperature of 98.6 degrees F, and b) an age of 18 years. The unemployment office has a federal grant program to train the chronically unemployed and re-train those who have been displaced because of job obsolescence, as do some employers. When I was unemployed, I was in one of those classes, and there were others who sat around joking and poking pencils at each other.

What about the individual’s responsibility to avail himself of those opportunities in order to utilize his skills and abilities to “participate” in the economy? The use of your God-given abilities is a mandate never mentioned by those who perpetuate the myth that there is no public help for the poor, and who favor an ever-expanding, never-ending welfare state.

Part of Catholic teaching is that everyone has an obligation to work, and children are no exception. That is not to say they must engage in paid labor, but to point out that their work is to attend school, study, learn, and do their homework. All children, both rich and poor, are offered immense wealth in the form of education, often at great sacrifice to their tax-paying parents; and for individual students, through willful recalcitrance, to squander that wealth is also a great social injustice. Where does socialist thought recognize that?

There are those who refuse to accept authority. We have all seen them: all their lives, they have defied their parents, defied their teachers, defied civil authorities, defied their employers, defied Church teachings. From the pre-school brat to the man who can’t get a job because he won’t cut his hair because, in his own words, “No one can tell me what to do.” This behavior his completely contrary to our Church’s teaching to respect legitimate authority. The consequences of such behavior are necessarily a low standard of living (who will employ a person who lacks the most basic skills or will not carry out instructions?). This is not to say these types do not need our help; but to blame their condition on a “lack” of social justice (a.k.a., “it’s all society’s fault”) is to misplace the blame and to commit resources to solving the wrong problem.

I reserve particular scorn for the ‘60s generation whose members, by their sheer numbers, sought to defy society, simply for the sake of defiance, by re-designing it after their own image. They are still having a profoundly negative effect on America’s concept of morality. Think of the immense human pride that is required for a single generation to convince itself that it knows more than all the collective knowledge of all of Western Civilization distilled down through 200 generations! Yet, its only accomplishment was to put a different spin on ancient sin in an attempt to give it respectability. The message of that generation to its members was, “You don’t have to care what others think of you; consequently, you don’t have to care about them.” Also, sometime during the 1960s, the American culture passed a “cross-over” point. Prior to that, individuals felt a need to “pull their own weight” and avoid becoming a burden to society, and consequently, there was great social pressure for individuals to work. After that, there was no stigma to sloth; indeed, admiration for the rogue who “beat the system” generated (surprise!) more rogues! They are those who, attempting to avoid personal responsibility, “mine” the system: the welfare queen who drew 32 checks from 32 different welfare offices and lived with her lover in a luxury home and had four luxury cars in the garage.

"In a quest to increase social justice, we must be careful not compound that which we are trying to reduce."

The U.S. military can do its job very well, thank you, with a finite number of dollars. There isn’t enough money in the known universe to satisfy socialist welfare programs.

Obama’s social progams are VERY GOOD for your country.

You don’t know very much about Americans.