Why do you feel socialism is bad?

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If I may add France only has a 35 hour work week. Average work week in Germany is 37.

How is that possible to be ranked that high in productivity under socialism? By the way to be honest neither country is under socialism. Cuba and Venezuala? Socialism. But most European countries are democratic and vast majority of business is private owned or owned by shareholders.
 
Average Wages: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_average_wages
Rank Country Mean income 2004
1 United States 32,195
2 Canada 26,601
3 Switzerland 26,512
4 United Kingdom 26,193
5 Norway 25,961
6 Austria 24,485
7 Germany 22,585
8 Denmark 22,524
9 Sweden 21,193
10 Belgium 21,173
11 Australia 21,231
12 South Korea 20,743
13 France 20,533
14 Japan 19,805
15 Finland 19,735
16 Spain 17,732
17 Poland 8,137
 
all statistical anomolies can be explained like this:

taxes in those countries cause people to boost productivity even though real wealth may not be too high.

Note: Norway is somewhat unregulated in certain high-level sectors and luxembourg has very limited regulations.
 
taxes in those countries cause people to boost productivity even though real wealth may not be too high.
Perhaps because they follow the economic principles that if productivity goes up so should wages. Here we have the opposite.

But does not matter because none of those countries listed other than China is ruled by socialism. Well China is governed under a communist dictatorship. But Germany not government by socialism. Venezuala, yes socialism but you can see no where near the top.
 
how do tax increases cause an increase in wages and productivity and real wealth?
 
how do tax increases cause an increase in wages and productivity and real wealth?
Sorry I thought you were suggesting that because they have such high taxes they boost productivity to increase their wages.

They have high taxes because most Europeans want access to detailed public transportation, public insurance or health care, safe roads and bridges, good education system, access to free if not affordable day care.

They know it is not free but most are willing to pay higher taxes for it. Living and working in Germany for as long as I had this is what I experienced. I have visited and worked in Italy, Czech Republik, Poland, France. Most people I worked with would say the same thing.

Most businesses like this also because with reliable public transportation employees get to work easier. With a public insurance option (e.g. Germany) businesses do not have to worry about the added costs of health insurance as a benifit (additional pay), thus over all costs are much lower.
 
Other than Marx requires socialism as the step from Capitalism to Communism, here is something else to consider:

Socialism takes the individual responsibility of caring for the poor, feeding the hungry and the rest of the corporal works of mercy and transfers that responsibility to the government.
 
Sorry I thought you were suggesting that because they have such high taxes they boost productivity to increase their wages.
I was and I still find it incongrous that their contingent belief that wages should rise with productivity somehow means higher taxes=higher wages & productivity?
 
In my opinion, Communism and Socialism led to Holodomor and The Great Leap Forward. Look them up.
 
I was and I still find it incongrous that their contingent belief that wages should rise with productivity somehow means higher taxes=higher wages & productivity?
Actually it would be odd. In fact if you have good living wages and more collecting a decent income you have increase in tax revenue. Both through payroll taxes and consumption. But when you have falling wages like we have had the past 30 years here in the U.S. you steadly decrease tax revenues. Unless you fill that gap between wages and productivity with debt (loans, credit cards, etc) which end result is what we have now.

Over the past year we have had a steady (education, roads, bridges, water treatment plants, energy).

Also to from another post here. You are right it is the ultimate responsibility of the individual to provide for one self. However we all fall and things happen and in some cases like this economy sitaution we can not control such as the nearly 20% unemployment. As a child if it was not for welfare I would not of eaten some days. If it was not for public aid my mother would not of been able to afford rent some months. With out public grants and loans I would not been able to go to college (Army paid for some too, via tax dollars). So I am happy to pay taxes and pay back what was given to me.

Being unemployed this past year for a few months and when my insurance ran out and I could not afford my monthly premiums ($1500.00 for me and my family) fortunately there was S-Chip which at least kept my kids covered until I found a new job. I qualified for unemployment which helped. I have friends in Michigan, Chicago, and New England that have been out of a job for a year now. They go to at leaset 3 interviews a month and probably sent out hundreds of resumes. One of my friends who has an MBA took a job at Costco for $17/hr just so he can get some income in and health insurance for his family.

My brother and I had to hold a charity event for his babysitter’s family. Both her parents have lost their jobs in Feb’09. He had cancer. He lost his insurance. Because of his previous income he did not qualify for Medicaid. He probably would of this year because of his '09 income. He lost his battle with cancer. His family is left with $500K worth of bills. They lost their home in foreclosure. This was the home my brother’s babysitter was literally born in and lived in the past 16 years of her life. We raised $12K and my brother gave him his old car. My brother got a bonus for re-enlisting (he is active-reserve) and used that to buy a new car for his family and gave them his old car. My brother’s comment was “This is what I and thousands of others are defending?”

As I told some people at my former parish ( i changed parishes) who called me a socialist and a baby killing supporter… If what I just said makes me a socialist and a bad Catholic then so be it. have me excommunicated. But do not worry I will pray for you. I will pray for them. I pray they never have to live how I had to for a moment in my life as a child and never experience unemployment, poverty or chronic illness. I pray they will be enlightened and look with open eyes and minds.
 
If I may add I am not advocating Socialism but social responsibility. We live in a society. As our Catechism says we all have the moral responsibilities (indvidual, government, business).

And as the prophet Michah had wrote: “There will be no peace until everyone can eat from their own fig tree”
 
OP and others who thing Socialism is good,

It is really a pretty simple formula. Data show that Socialism leads to decreases in productivity and decreases in productivity lead to decreases in living standards. When living standards decrease everyone is worse off. There are more needy and fewer resources (charitable or governmental) to help them. Conversely, the combination of freedom, democracy, and capitalism increases productivity and increases living standards. JFK summed it up nicely when he said, “A rising tide lifts all boats.”

The OP and others want to convince us that Socialism and Communism are completed different even though they are just slightly different versions of Collectivism. They say to ignore USSR, Cuba, North Korea, etc. because they are/were Communist and look at Europe. OK, let’s look at Europe:
  • A 2005 study by the Assoc of European Chambers of Commerce and Industry found that the EU was roughly 20 years behind the US in economic performance, and it would take the EU until 2056 to reach 2005 U.S. levels of productivity.
  • Most recent data from the Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development nations show that the average U.S. Citizen consumes 52% more than the average inhabitant of other OECD countries and 47% more than citizens of Western Europe.
  • Average GDP per person in the U.S. is 25% higher than in Europe
  • Average income in Europe is below that of Mississippi - one of America’s poorest states.
  • Even in a recession, U.S. unemployment rates are lower than most EU countries (there are valid arguments that the current recession and slow recovery are primarily due to increased government intervention in the U.S. economy ala Europe).
To sum it up, European Socialism has lead to a declining standard of living, slow economic growth, lack of job creation, lack of innovation, and failed health care systems. In total, Europeans across the economic spectrum are worse off.
The fallacy here is that China has hardocre socialsim and Communism and currently it is the fastest growing economic miracle of a society in the world today.
 
Actually it would be odd. In fact if you have good living wages and more collecting a decent income you have increase in tax revenue. Both through payroll taxes and consumption. But when you have falling wages like we have had the past 30 years here in the U.S. you steadly decrease tax revenues. Unless you fill that gap between wages and productivity with debt (loans, credit cards, etc) which end result is what we have now.
True but you can have low wages with increasing tax revenues 1) through your definition of wages (pre-tax, or post-tax) and 2) through the possibility of a very vast base of low-wage earners. But that’s probably not your point. What I meant to say was that tax increases (to pay for welfare/social services) cause an increase in productivity in france, even given the 35 hour work week, because people are working so much harder and/or smarter because their incomes were lowered by the taxes.
 
A miracle like “The Great Leap Forward”? I would not associate Socialism and Communism with miracles.
 
Yes, and one of those rights is the right to own property. To wit:
In view of this and as an advocate of social change, you need to do a lot of research to justify the changes you want.
– RERUM NOVARUM , On Capital and Labor sums up why the Catholic Church is against socialism. This was a very good post!
 

They have high taxes because most Europeans want access to detailed public transportation, public insurance or health care, safe roads and bridges, good education system, access to free if not affordable day care.
If they are getting those things for their higher taxes, I suspect the politician in Europe is different from the American one. What guarantee is there that if we increase taxes in this country we will get those things? None. Nada. Zero. Zip. Zilch. Just look at education: we’ve been shoveling more and more money at it for the last 50 years, and the result has been lower and lower test scores. The situation has gotten so bad that teachers, under ever more pressure to increase test scores, have been caught cheating on the standardized exams that are supposed to determine student achievement. Then there is health care. The government says everyone should be insured, but insured doesn’t mean that the available supply of health care is going to magically increase so everyone gets what they need; i.e., no one is talking about increasing the supply of health care services that will be needed when demand explodes after it becomes “free”. [Note: How much could the supply increase if we outlawed abortion and the doctors performing them have to turn instead to healing people who are sick?]

Socialism sounds good on paper, but it ignores the fact that supply and demand change when it is implemented. And this is not to mention that for it to be implemented [note I didn’t say “work” because it can never work], you have to take away peoples’ rights.

“Government spends money not to benefit the receiver but to benefit the giver.” – George Soros
 
If they are getting those things for their higher taxes, I suspect the politician in Europe is different from the American one. What guarantee is there that if we increase taxes in this country we will get those things? None. Nada. Zero. Zip. Zilch. Just look at education: we’ve been shoveling more and more money at it for the last 50 years, and the result has been lower and lower test scores. The situation has gotten so bad that teachers, under ever more pressure to increase test scores, have been caught cheating on the standardized exams that are supposed to determine student achievement. Then there is health care. The government says everyone should be insured, but insured doesn’t mean that the available supply of health care is going to magically increase so everyone gets what they need; i.e., no one is talking about increasing the supply of health care services that will be needed when demand explodes after it becomes “free”. [Note: How much could the supply increase if we outlawed abortion and the doctors performing them have to turn instead to healing people who are sick?]

Socialism sounds good on paper, but it ignores the fact that supply and demand change when it is implemented. And this is not to mention that for it to be implemented [note I didn’t say “work” because it can never work], you have to take away peoples’ rights.

“Government spends money not to benefit the receiver but to benefit the giver.” – George Soros
You understand why government is never the solution, it is the problem. Governments create problems (misallocation of resources), then they want more money and power to solve the problems that they created.

As long as governments can create their own money out of thin air, we will continue to have out-of-control governments. Remember, it costs governments nothing to create money out of thin air.
 
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