Why do you hate Islam?

[dolphinlove]

Neil made a list of reasons why he doesn’t hate Muslims. Don’t you think some of those reasons are because of “the Islam system”?

Tomarin, your Catholic arent you, yet you choose to defend a teaching that clearly goes against your church.
There are muslims out there who are good people, i never did deny that either, but what im pointing out is their actual belief system, and there is nothing good about a false religion.
Yes, they truly believe they are taught to pray, yes they are taught to do some good things, but you must add some of these components to really fool people into thinking they really are following a good religion.
Its so easy to make things look good on the surface, praying, worshipping, been good to your fellow man, but underneath, look at what it really is teaching, polygomy, sex with children, do not befriend people of the book etc. Its the substance of this that makes these people who look good, have the potential to be bad underneath as well.

 

[sedonaman]

None of the muslims I know have slaves, and none of the married muslim men i know have sex with anyone other than their one wife.

I’m not comparing ideals or extremes, or someone on youtube. I’m talking about the people I encounter in my life, in my work and my neighbourhood. The muslim women around here don’t wear burkhas, they just have a nice scarf and dress modestly. The men don’t own slaves, they are good family men and they seem devout and holy.

In an earlier post, you said we Christians have to clean up our act first. You are comparing the few Muslims you know with all Christians in general, and some “Christians” [in general] are not practicing their faith. Among those who still “practice” their faith, a lot of them are de facto secularists. For example, I know lots of Catholics in my parish who support abortion.

If you use your personal contact with a few Muslims as a measure of Muslim conduct in general, you should also use only your personal contact with true Christians as a measure Christian conduct, although personally I think that the “I-know-some-nice/bad-Muslims,-therefore-Islam-must-be-good/bad” method is a poor way to judge Islam, or any religion for that matter. IMHO, the best way is to study their official beliefs.

 

[tomarin]

Tomarin, your Catholic arent you, yet you choose to defend a teaching that clearly goes against your church.

You’ve got me all wrong. I respect Muslims because they are theists. I find a lot of the arguments that are used against them in these forums to be similar in nature to the arguments used against Christianity by atheists. It’s as if the anti-Muslim Christians here have no concept of their own history or the way that our religion has been at odds with the secularists for several centuries. So I think I’m being consistent in defending them from unreasonable criticisms.

 

[tomarin]

There are muslims out there who are good people, i never did deny that either, but what im pointing out is their actual belief system, and there is nothing good about a false religion.

I’m suggesting their actual belief system may have something to do with them being good people. Sure there are things I disagree with or even find objectionable but it’s not fair to select a few characteristics that are exotic or strange and present that as the sum total of the religion, which is what I think you are trying to do by harping on the slavery and polygamy, which really do not define how Muslims live their faith today.

About the false religion comment: first, no religion is completely bad. It’s not as if you can put all religions into one of two compartments, “bad” and “good” – that’s extremely simplistic thinking. In the case of Islam there are too many similarities with our own religion for any serious person to conclude that Islam is completely false. Mohammad was a false prophet but not everything he taught was wrong or bad.

Yes, they truly believe they are taught to pray, yes they are taught to do some good things, but you must add some of these components to really fool people into thinking they really are following a good religion.

What you call adding components, I call taking an objective and balanced view of the matter.

Its so easy to make things look good on the surface, praying, worshipping, been good to your fellow man, but underneath, look at what it really is teaching, polygomy, sex with children, do not befriend people of the book etc. Its the substance of this that makes these people who look good, have the potential to be bad underneath as well.

I don’t think that’s a fair or accurate characterization of the religion. It just shows you’re incapable of understanding it on its own terms.

 

[MDK]

Here’s what I know: muslims don’t promote secularism, muslims believe in keeping religion parrt of society, and muslim women don’t force me to “guard my eyes” every time I go out in public. Muslims don’t practice fornication. Muslims who get married have large families.

In other words, from what I’ve seen, muslims are better Catholics than most catholics.

It would be hard to top the nonsense you wrote there, as it’s really just very distorted on the whole. First, you are mixing religion and government, and trying to compare religion with government… and that doesn’t work too well. Again, there are Catholics who are way better than Muslims, so what’s the point? In other words, you know essentially enough fringe limited info to promote a perspective which cannot be respected by any educated and thinking person who does know.

For instance, if you have to guard your eyes, you are the problem… in other words, what is going through your mind is the problem as well. I can see things wrong in society, and I am not tempted nor corrupted by it. I pray for them, as a good Catholic ought.

You seem to have no trouble in an overt willingness to slander Catholics, as the “evidence” you provide is lacking in fact and in any kind of objective justice.

 

[Agabriel]

Jesus said: “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’”

I’d rather be a muslim before the judgement seat of God than the average Christian in the west, practicing fornication, completely removing God from society, allowing abortion and pornography, and accepting immodest dress. Let’s see us clean up our own act before we start criticizing other religions.

I think you are not too up on what the Muslims do as far as ‘fornication’. What they do to make it seem like they are morally superiour: marry for a day, take children as wives, beat their wives, kill them if they have done something whatever the man thinks they have done (and don’t give me the stuff that it is a tribal thing - the sharia laws protect the crimes against women), rape slaves (children and adults - males and females), kidnap/rape subjugated ones if they don’t obey them or if they want to kidnap them and marry them, etc.

It might do you some good to start reading what goes on in the ME, especially concerning non-Muslims and women. If they are slaves they have absolutely no rights, and if they are dhimmi they only have the right to keep their religion otherwise they have no rights, and if they are a woman they fare only a bit better than the other two I mentioned.

jihadwatch.org (they always reference the original article)
faithfreedom.org
islaminaction08.blogspot.com/

There are more, but I am sure these will get you started.

 

[ferdie]

Here’s what I know: muslims don’t promote secularism, muslims believe in keeping religion parrt of society, and muslim women don’t force me to “guard my eyes” every time I go out in public. Muslims don’t practice fornication. Muslims who get married have large families.

In other words, from what I’ve seen, muslims are better Catholics than most catholics.

I guess you haven’t been to Iran, Philippines and Malaysia nor you know anybody from those places who will tell you the truth.
Oooops, I’ve just read post #142.

 

[MDK]

Then why did Muslim “scholars” have to invent abrogation?

Yes, “Muslim scholar”… that is indeed an improper phrase. How do they attempt to defend the indefensible, and then consider themselves as upholding the truth of something? In truth, a “Muslim scholar” is simply a Muslim propagandist, as it can really be no more than that.

 

[MDK]

No. Since slavery is universally outlawed, I think it’s a non-issue.

Not really. Islam allows slavery, even though a country may prohibit it. Islam establishes things that are wrong… incorrect teachings. Chief among them, Jesus is not God. This alone tells one that Islam is false.

Catholicism prohibits abortion, even though a country may allow it.

In other words, the gates of Hell will never prevail against the Catholic Church.

In comparison, the gates of Hell have prevailed over Islam, and did so during the creation of Islam… it was built in. There was never a time where the gates of Hell had not prevailed over Islam.

 

[Agabriel]

Then just because someone knows a Muslim who doesn’t own a slave doesn’t mean that there is not currently slavery in Islam. They either live in our lands and know it is considered a crime (and some don’t care as I will post below). OR they can’t afford a slave(s).

The Quran says it is ok to marry married women, if they are taken as slaves, surah 4:24. Tell me that this is moral behavior?

The articles mention the past slavery, I won’t even go into the past slavery in Islam to show you that it is still going on - I will just mention current history regarding history and not even mention the girls they kidnap and force into marriage to Muslim men.

ffi’s article on slavery in islam

Slavery in Islam No muslim country has signed the UN anti-slavery law because that would be going against Islam.

Slavery in islam This is my favorite article about slavery in Islam.

Slavery in Denver

California couple admits to enslavement

Saudis largest human traffikers in the world

I guess anyone who has doubt about slavery in Islam isn’t paying attention. If anyone needs more aticles, just let me know - or you can do your own google searches.

 

[a_priori]

• muslims aren’t afraid to pray in public like many Christians are

Christians praying in public in America is sometimes simple affectation. When I was evangelical, I did it all the time. I know better now. Praying in public does not make one more spiritual simply because they can endure the glances of the masses. I wouldn’t hang my hat on this one.

 

[dolphinlove]

You’ve got me all wrong. I respect Muslims because they are theists. I find a lot of the arguments that are used against them in these forums to be similar in nature to the arguments used against Christianity by atheists. It’s as if the anti-Muslim Christians here have no concept of their own history or the way that our religion has been at odds with the secularists for several centuries. So I think I’m being consistent in defending them from unreasonable criticisms.

I know the churches history, but im not talking abou that now, this is about islam, start a new thread about the churches history if you wish to discuss that further.
Well good for you if you respect them, i respect humans, not what they believe in.
Do you not listen to any of God’s warnings about false prophets and leading many astray, these exact same teachings apply to islam. islam is made up by a false prophet with many false teachings, do you really think that is a good way to worship God, with false teachings? Do you think many of the laws God has given us in the bible, he enjoys seeing another religion breaking them and follow a false prophet? I dont think so, and im sure God does not appreciate a bogus religion turning billion + of his children against his proper teachings.
My ‘unreasonable criticism’ as you call it, it not unreasonable at all, im standing up for Jesus, while you can continue to admire a false religion, its your choice

 

[dolphinlove]

I’m suggesting their actual belief system may have something to do with them being good people. Sure there are things I disagree with or even find objectionable but it’s not fair to select a few characteristics that are exotic or strange and present that as the sum total of the religion, which is what I think you are trying to do by harping on the slavery and polygamy, which really do not define how Muslims live their faith today.

Maybe a visit to Sudan, Iran, Afghanistan etc will open your eyes a bit, you think they dont live by sharia law, well 5 minutes in one of thoes countries will make you think twice. Its not only those factors of the religion i find disturbing, its the fact they can beat their wives, think we are slaves of God, not his children… oh the list goes on mate.

About the false religion comment: first, no religion is completely bad. It’s not as if you can put all religions into one of two compartments, “bad” and “good” – that’s extremely simplistic thinking. In the case of Islam there are too many similarities with our own religion for any serious person to conclude that Islam is completely false. Mohammad was a false prophet but not everything he taught was wrong or bad.

Any religion that goes against the teaching of Jesus is bad. He has set down the laws for us to be followed, not so that some false prophet can come along and change the rules to fit his own lifestyle he wanted to create.
You know what disturbs me most, when Jesus was tempted, the devil offered him his own kingdom, of course we know Jesus declined his offer. But with muhammad, all of a sudden, he started to get all these things he desired, changing the laws as he went along to suit his desires and purposes, which sounds almost like the ‘angel’ he saw is the devil and the devil has granted him all his earthly wishes if he carried out spreading the false quran. As you know, in the bible it does warn us against the devil showing himself as an angel, i just think this religion you ‘admire’ is the handy work of either muhammad or the devil, because it does go against Jesus’ teachings first of all, and secondly, many of the components of it like wife beating, multiple sex partners etc is not something God allowed us to do, then all of a sudden we can?
Its ok Tom, you can admire a false religion and its teachings. If i was you, i would be praying for these people who follow it and hope they come back to Jesus.

]What you call adding components, I call taking an objective and balanced view of the matter.
I don’t think that’s a fair or accurate characterization of the religion. It just shows you’re incapable of understanding it on its own terms.

You are either with Jesus and his teachings or you arent, you cannot worship 2 Gods.
The teachings of islam are clear, and even the muslims have trouble defending some of it, but yet, you admire it…
I dont think you truly understand whatr you are admiring.

 

[MDK]

You’ve got me all wrong. I respect Muslims because they are theists. I find a lot of the arguments that are used against them in these forums to be similar in nature to the arguments used against Christianity by atheists. It’s as if the anti-Muslim Christians here have no concept of their own history or the way that our religion has been at odds with the secularists for several centuries. So I think I’m being consistent in defending them from unreasonable criticisms.

So, if someone worshiped a toaster as their one god and creator of all things, would you respect them as well?

So because someone blasphemed by calling Christ a demon means to you that you can’t call the actual demon a demon?

The Catholic Church has always been at odds with the world since it’s inception from Christ’s side on the cross… just look what they did to the founder of Catholicism, when He earned the wrath of the Jewish leaders. Was the world at peace with Christ then? No, and neither is it now.

So, you are fairly consistent…, but unfortunately it’s a consistency at promoting faulty arguments. For example, what difference does it make that the Catholic Church is falsely accused of teaching heresy. Does that mean to you that the same charge against another church of heresy would automatically not be true? Perhaps the truth should play a part in this, with each being compared to the truth. Wouldn’t that be better?

 

[sedonaman]

…
What you call adding components, I call taking an objective and balanced view of the matter.

How is this for objectivity and balance?

We haven’t even addressed whether or not Islam even qualifies as a religion. What makes a belief system a religion? The fact that 1.3 billion people think it is? Everyone’s assumption that it is because its believers go through the motions? What its foundational texts say, measured against some standard?

It would seem that 99.44% of the people accept that Islam is a religion; I do not because it has no Golden Rule equivalent. Then look at its foundational texts, the Trilogy (Koran, Sira, and Hadith): What is the real jihad, the jihad of inner, spiritual struggle or the jihad of war? In the Hadith, Bukhari repeatedly speaks of jihad – 97% of the jihad references are about war and 3% are about the inner struggle. So the statistical answer is that jihad is 97% war and 3% inner struggle. Is jihad war? Yes – 97%. Is jihad inner struggle? Yes – 3%. The Trilogy (Koran, Sira, and Hadith) is clear about Islamic doctrine. At least 75% of the Sira (life of Mohammed) is about jihad. About 67% of the Koran written in Mecca is about the unbelievers, or politics. Of the Koran of Medina, 51% is devoted to the unbelievers. Religion is the smallest part of Islamic foundational texts. Even Hell is political. There are 146 references to Hell in the Koran. Only 6% of those in Hell are there for moral failings – murder, theft, etc. The other 94% of the reasons for being in Hell are for the intellectual sin of disagreeing with Mohammed, a political crime, IOW, “treason.” Hence, Islamic Hell is a political prison for those who speak against Islam. [Ref: W. Warner, “The Study of Political Islam”]

But, can such books be the work of a loving God? For Muslims to think that reveals Islam for what it is: self-delusion as a group effort, and I would say the “balance” tilts dramatically away from Islam’s being a religion.

If religion is the smallest part of Islamic foundational texts, what would you call it?

As far as Jesus is concerned, he predicted that “false prophets shall arise and mislead many.” From the research above about Islamic texts, it is clear that Mohammed was just one of those false prophets.

I don’t think that’s a fair or accurate characterization of the religion. It just shows you’re incapable of understanding it on its own terms.

If Islam is in error, and you accept it on its own terms, you have accepted an error. First you said it should be judged by some objective standard, now it’s “on its own terms.” So which is it?

 

[dolphinlove]

sedonaman,
bashing your head against the wall is fun hey…

 

[planten]

Neil,
You have just enough “information” to be dangerous.

Muslim women don’t dress modestly, they’re totally shut out.

As a Christian, I pray in public, like restaurants before meals. Otherwise my prayer in public is private and not for show. I know I don’t have to orient myself in the direction of a false prophet to do so.

Muslims deny the revealed truth about God. They have invented their own characteristics about God which they prefer. So, they’re worshiping their own version of God, not who He revealed Himself to be… quite a difference.

MDK, there is no revealed truth in bibleNT. It is a work of some unknown men wrote what they thought. Bible is a man made book, said to be inspired. Inspiration is well below a revelation. Inspiration is from the inside of a person. revelation is from outside and above. You have nogood beliefs (news) about a God.

Muslims understanding of natural law comes from Christianity. Any truth they do have is from Christianity. The falsehoods are their own making.

The Catholic Church is right where Islam is right (because it reaches the fullness of revealed truth, and started 600 years before Islam). Also importantly, the Catholic Church is right where Islam is wrong.

It is not possible for Muslims to sanctify our country when they denigrate our Lord, when the distort His teachings and replace them with those of a murderer and marauder.

Please get some proper perspective based on the truth, not just some slanted version of propaganda.

**I told you that you do not have any truth about any religion. God revealed Himself to all people of the world through the messengers. jesus was just one of them. A Messenger. A true messenger and the Messiah for the Jews. **

The shame on us is for not converting them to Christianity. There is plenty of shame on Islam, as it is a heresy of Christianity. There is no valid reason for Islam. The only thing we should honor them for is the amount of being good in regard to God’s one religion, which is Christianity. To the extent they act like a proper Christian, we should honor that. However, denying Jesus is Lord is a pretty big problem to overlook, isn’t it? Islamic preference of a murdering marauder’s distorted teachings to the proper teachings of God is a pretty big problem to overlook, isn’t it?

**Don’t worry. You christians had converted many millions to christianity through your planning and effort and massacre during the 14th to 20th century C.E. But it was all wrong. Wrong teachings. These were spread successfully all over the world and many were converted to christianity in Afrika and Asia. And you spread your ibles too. But that was the end of your effort because soon the people learnt all about the falsehood of your teachings, they stopped converting and those who had been christians got divided into many sects. Some became atheists too,a nd some JW’s and some Mormons.

You christians are in the habit of blaming of blaming islam about convert or die. that is all false. If any one wants to see the real face of Catholics and the good example of convert or die, ten that person should see the massacre done by king ferdinand and queen Isabela in Spain.

There is no use you abusing any one.**

 

[koranist]

I don’t hate anyone. I think Chrsitains are disadvantaged when they debate Muslims because they don’t have the luxury of abrogation. Muslims can see yes we recognize Jesus and we respect and revere Jesus and Moses and so on, but now they have been abrogated. Christians don’t have that luxury since Muhammad appeared after Jesus and the Koran attacked the trinity. So they have no choice but to attack Muhammad and try to delegitimize him in any way. Something Muslims don’t have to do. So it appears that Christians are filled with hate. But they are no different than Muslims are.

As far as we koranist are concerned, we don’t believe in abrogation. Though not all, many Koranist, such as myself accept the authority of the Gospel and Torah and all the previous scriptures. Even those Koranist who don’t, they tend to avoid the topic. They have to, the koran is crystal clear about the authority of the OT and the NT. I believe that some Koranist are disturbed with some elements in the OT(if you know what i mean). They say to themselves, my God, this is hadith in steroids. But I obey the Koran, or at least I try to.

The Koran is crystal clear about the Gospel and Torah being the words of God. The Koran spoke of the Gospel and Torah in the same category as the Koran. We all know this.

Sunnis and Shias made up some lie about the Gospel and Torah talked about in the Koran are not the ones we have today. This is escapism and unethical. We all know that by the time Muhammad came the Gospel and Torah were very much compiled and spread across the world. And i have posted a thread here about the Koran confirms the Gospel and Torah but condemned Talmudic excesses(as did Jesus in the Gospel) and condemned the trinitarian excesses of elements within the Christian Church and tradition.

I have also shown that the Koran did not refute the crucifixion but refuted claims by some Jewish sects of the way it occurred.

Say: "O People of the Book! ye have no ground to stand upon unless ye stand fast by the Law, the Gospel, and all the revelation that has come to you from your Lord."Those who believe (in the Qur’an), those who follow the Jewish (scriptures), and the Sabians and the Christians,- any who believe in Allah and the Last Day, and work righteousness,- on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve. 5.68-69

If Muslims say something else thats not the Koran’s business. So let the Gospel judge between me and anyone.

 

[bengland]

MDK, there is no revealed truth in bibleNT. It is a work of some unknown men wrote what they thought. Bible is a man made book, said to be inspired. Inspiration is well below a revelation. Inspiration is from the inside of a person. revelation is from outside and above. You have nogood beliefs (news) about a God.

When you think the Bible agrees with you then you quote it as if what you’re quoting is fact. When you are shown to be wrong you dismiss it as an afterthought.

The Quran reads like it was written by a child and is lacking in the complexity that we find even in a Disney children’s film. The directives are culled from an outside view of a foreign societal concept, attempting to harmonize Judaism with Christianity. It’s schizophrenic, self contradictory and frightening in that it’s actually a book of how to operate a society. It’s impossible to compare it to the Bible, but the simplicity of the Quran explains why Muslims have so much difficulty understanding the Bible, although I think a better explanation is that they don’t actually read the Bible but pull quotes written by others out of context and with no Christian explanation or attempt at understanding. Instead they reply with the ever profound “say not three” statement. The proper response to that would be to duck.

This response is no surprise and is far more abusive than what it was a reply to, which was a criticism of the religious system itself and a profound concern for the Muslim people who have been lied to over the centuries by Mohammad’s book and the religion he invented.

 

[koranist]

When you think the Bible agrees with you then you quote it as if what you’re quoting is fact. When you are shown to be wrong you dismiss it as an afterthought.

The Quran reads like it was written by a child and is lacking in the complexity that we find even in a Disney children’s film. The directives are culled from an outside view of a foreign societal concept, attempting to harmonize Judaism with Christianity. It’s schizophrenic, self contradictory and frightening in that it’s actually a book of how to operate a society. It’s impossible to compare it to the Bible, but the simplicity of the Quran explains why Muslims have so much difficulty understanding the Bible, although I think a better explanation is that they don’t actually read the Bible but pull quotes written by others out of context and with no Christian explanation or attempt at understanding. Instead they reply with the ever profound “say not three” statement. The proper response to that would be to duck.

This response is no surprise and is far more abusive than what it was a reply to, which was a criticism of the religious system itself and a profound concern for the Muslim people who have been lied to over the centuries by Mohammad’s book and the religion he invented.

*Originally Posted by planten *
MDK, there is no revealed truth in bibleNT. It is a work of some unknown men wrote what they thought. Bible is a man made book, said to be inspired. Inspiration is well below a revelation. Inspiration is from the inside of a person. revelation is from outside and above. You have nogood beliefs (news) about a God End quote

This is what you get when you attack other people’s faith they way you do. thats why the Muslims are responding in kind. The Koran says do not attack the gods of the pagans lest they might attack God in ignorance. The Koran mentioned the Arab pagan gods in one place in the Koran. It also mentioned the gods of the people of Noah, but it never insulted them or used profanity. Thats why Planten fires back and it goes back and forth.

53.19. Have ye seen Lat. and 'Uzza, And another, the third Manat?

This is the Koran mentioning the gods of the pagans(the 3 daughters of Allah). You can see it never insulted their gods but it attacked polytheism. Personal attacks on Muhammad and insulting him is counterproductive if you ask me. Just because they can’t say anything about Jesus does not mean they would not find something to say about Christians. Its not the way Jesus preached. And people could accuse you of hate. Thats why many people are turned off from religion.

Meanwhile Muslims must start being more honest about their contradictions with the Koran and stop speaking for it. They should speak for Sunnis and Shiasm and their traditions and leave the Koran for us Koranist.