Why, do you think, animals suffer?

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catholic1seeks

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Why do animals suffer?

There suffering cannot be punishment, since they have no moral sense; and it cannot be redemptive, since they have no immortal souls. Whether they go to Heaven is purely speculative, and it wouldn’t fit the fact that they lack immortal souls.

What is your reasoning?

The best answer I could think of is that animals do not suffer the same way humans do. Of course it can’t be the exact same, since they’re not human. But it’s safe to say they really do endure pain.

I mean, watching those animal abuse commercials just highlights this question, haha… But seriously.
 
Because they are the unfortunate occupants of the evil-infested world we’ve created by committing original sin and allowing evil into the world.

I think before the fall of man, animals didn’t suffer.
 
RosaryFan said:
Because they are the unfortunate occupants of the evil-infested world we’ve created by committing original sin and allowing evil into the world.

I think before the fall of man, animals didn’t suffer.
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Hi RosaryFan,
  1. I would say that science shows us that nature has been “red in tooth and claw” from the beginning. Now I’m not trying to make a religion vs. science debate. But I believe faith can never contradict true science (as I’m sure you do). But I tend to accept the theory of evolution, and I find it hard to believe that animals did not at one time suffer. Since they have a nervous system and could feel pain, etc…
  2. God is omniscient, and therefore knew that we’d create this “evil-infested” world. And it’s not the animals’ fault: If they suffer because of original sin, then we’d have to deal with the fact that we have redemption. They didn’t sin, and can’t sin, yet they do not have a chance for Heaven…
These are sincere comments,
+C1seeks
 
To examine pain through the lens of the Fall, suffering, and the consequence of sin is a tad unfair. I’m not sure exactly what kind of suffering you’re referring to, but in the case of pain, for instance, we must consider that pain is a natural biological experience. Animals, so far as we might imagine, always had nervous systems and and could always feel pain. The same goes for humans.
 
passus said:
To examine pain through the lens of the Fall, suffering, and the consequence of sin is a tad unfair. I’m not sure exactly what kind of suffering you’re referring to, but in the case of pain, for instance, we must consider that pain is a natural biological experience. Animals, so far as we might imagine, always had nervous systems and and could always feel pain. The same goes for humans.
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Yes.

The big question is, in what sense do they suffer?

I sure hope they go to Heaven…
What do you guys think?
 
They suffer because we cause them to suffer.
If they go to Heaven its for the glory of GOD no use in making our selves suffer.
now i dont have actual pets. but i do think animals a beautiful.

I am starting to lean into evolution too, but only because it is allowed in the Faith since Genisis isnt an axact describtion of the creation wish it was though.

At any right i think they suffer because… thats a problem we have to figure out we are called to tend the garden, the garden has bugs and worms right? (animals)

If your talking about Animals who get sick thats also our fualt! 😃
i believe if we hadn’t fallen we would be more advance in science and be able to cure more diseases.

Abuse? obviously our fualt.

Preditor vs prey? Nature.
 
It is hard to wrap our minds around…

The problem of evil can be answered, with the virtue of hope in mind, with the fact that suffering can lead to Heaven.

But what of animal suffering? It seems the problem of evil is still…well, a problem, at least in this case.
 
catholic1seeks said:
Hi RosaryFan,
  1. I would say that science shows us that nature has been “red in tooth and claw” from the beginning. Now I’m not trying to make a religion vs. science debate. But I believe faith can never contradict true science (as I’m sure you do). But I tend to accept the theory of evolution, and I find it hard to believe that animals did not at one time suffer. Since they have a nervous system and could feel pain, etc…
  2. God is omniscient, and therefore knew that we’d create this “evil-infested” world. And it’s not the animals’ fault: If they suffer because of original sin, then we’d have to deal with the fact that we have redemption. They didn’t sin, and can’t sin, yet they do not have a chance for Heaven…
These are sincere comments,
+C1seeks
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I’m not saying evolution isn’t a possibility. Humans, too, have a nervous system. How is it that we at one time didn’t feel pain (with nervous system intact), but animals always felt pain?? :confused:
 
perhaps there is a difference between feeling pain and suffering. animals and humans feel pain to alert them to a problem with their physical bodies, but most of the worst human suffering is mental. remembrance or anticipation of pain, worry, regret, etc. I do not think animals suffer this as they live in the moment.
 
nebraskabeth said:
perhaps there is a difference between feeling pain and suffering. animals and humans feel pain to alert them to a problem with their physical bodies, but most of the worst human suffering is mental. remembrance or anticipation of pain, worry, regret, etc. I do not think animals suffer this as they live in the moment.
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Even so, before the fall of first man, there were no problems with our physical bodies, so no “pain” because there was nothing to alert us to.

Animals suffer because they live in a world with suffering. The OP indicated that it’s not the animal’s fault, so why do they still suffer. It wasn’t Christ’s fault either, but when He walked the earth, He also suffered. It is simply an unfortunate consequence of this world.
 
catholic1seeks said:
It is hard to wrap our minds around…

The problem of evil can be answered, with the virtue of hope in mind, with the fact that suffering can lead to Heaven.

But what of animal suffering? It seems the problem of evil is still…well, a problem, at least in this case.
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The problem ceases to exist if we remember suffering is only evil if it is unnecessary.
Every advantage has a corresponding disadvantage. The more sensitive we are the more we can enjoy life but also the more we can suffer. Neither we nor animals can expect to have everything for nothing! It is a law of life that there is always a price to pay…
 
tonyrey said:
The problem ceases to exist if we remember suffering is only evil if it is unnecessary.
Every advantage has a corresponding disadvantage. The more sensitive we are the more we can enjoy life but also the more we can suffer. Neither we nor animals can expect to have everything for nothing! It is a law of life that there is always a price to pay…
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OK this makes sense, assuming there isn’t a “better” world got have created.
👍
 
catholic1seeks said:
Why do animals suffer?

There suffering cannot be punishment, since they have no moral sense; and it cannot be redemptive, since they have no immortal souls. Whether they go to Heaven is purely speculative, and it wouldn’t fit the fact that they lack immortal souls.

What is your reasoning?

The best answer I could think of is that animals do not suffer the same way humans do. Of course it can’t be the exact same, since they’re not human. But it’s safe to say they really do endure pain.

I mean, watching those animal abuse commercials just highlights this question, haha… But seriously.
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Hi catholic1seeks,

Animals feel pain and fear for the same reason humans do: it is necessary to safeguard their lives.

You fear death and pain; therefore you’ll avoid both. And pain alerts you to a threat to your life or safety, hence you avoid that as well. If you had neither, you’d have no real reason not to do stupid, dangerous things. (Well, you’d have reason itself, but that’s never sufficient).

Hope that helps!
 
tonyrey said:
If God could have created a better world something is wrong! 🙂
What prevented Him?
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He did. He created a perfect world. We faltered and allowed sin and evil, pain, fear and death into it from our first sin.

Before the fall of man, there was no evil, no pain, no fear, no death, for us or for the animals. It was a paradise.
 
RosaryFan said:
there was no evil, no pain, no fear, no death, for us or for the animals. It was a paradise.
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See, it’s this I’m not so sure about…
But oh well, I do not believe we as Catholics must believe this (about the animals’ condition before the Fall).

Curious, though.

What I find helpful is the fact that there will be a new Creation—a renewal of the physical world, in some way. And surely animals could be part of this, even those that have passed away. (I desperately want to see a dinosaur or two) 😉
 
RosaryFan said:
He did. He created a perfect world. We faltered and allowed sin and evil, pain, fear and death into it from our first sin.

Before the fall of man, there was no evil, no pain, no fear, no death, for us or for the animals. It was a paradise.
Click to expand...
The original sin certainly led to more evil, pain, fear and death but pain, fear and physical death have existed since the dawn of sentient beings. Jesus said “Do not fear those who kill the body but those who kill the soul.” Sin leads to spiritual death.

The Church accepts evolution by Design because it is supported by overwhelming scientific evidence. Physical death is an essential element of the biocycle. The French atheist Albert Camus regarded it as “le supreme abus” but it is a blessing because it has been transformed by the Death and Resurrection of Jesus, liberates us from evil and injustice, unites us with our risen Lord and reunites us with our loved ones in heaven…
 
tonyrey said:
The original sin certainly led to more evil, pain, fear and death but pain, fear and physical death have existed since the dawn of sentient beings. Jesus said “Do not fear those who kill the body but those who kill the soul.” Sin leads to spiritual death.

The Church accepts evolution by Design because it is supported by overwhelming scientific evidence. Physical death is an essential element of the biocycle. The French atheist Albert Camus regarded it as “le supreme abus” but it is a blessing because it has been transformed by the Death and Resurrection of Jesus, liberates us from evil and injustice, unites us with our risen Lord and reunites us with our loved ones in heaven…
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Well said.
We just have to believe that our first parents were unable to die before the Fall.
 
catholic1seeks said:
Well said.
We just have to believe that our first parents were unable to die before the Fall.
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We don’t even have to believe that! It is our souls that are immortal but as a **result **of the Resurrection of Jesus are glorified when we go to heaven. 🙂
 
tonyrey said:
We don’t even have to believe that! It is our souls that are immortal but as a **result **of the Resurrection of Jesus are glorified when we go to heaven. 🙂
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Are you sure?
What about impassibility?

Or what the catechism says:
376 By the radiance of this grace all dimensions of man’s life were confirmed. As long as he remained in the divine intimacy, man would not have to suffer or die. The inner harmony of the human person, the harmony between man and woman, and finally the harmony between the first couple and all creation, comprised the state called “original justice”.
 
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