Why do you think God allowed Protestantism?

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Encyclopedic Dictionary of the Bible
Purgatory: The place and state in which souls suffer for a while and are purged after death, before they go to heaven, on account of their sins.
well, i experience a death-like thing while There…

Do you spend much time There? Becasue if you don’t, i don’t see where you have any cause to criticize what i, first-hand, “know” about the Blessed Sacrament… In other words, youcan’t question my reality… (even if you DO spend a lot of time There…seeing as how you are not me and vice versa)…
Venial sins, which have never in life been remitted by an act of repentance or love or by good deeds, and grave sins, the guilt of which with its eternal punishment has indeed been removed by God after an act of repentance but for which there is still left a debt of temporal punishment due to His justice on account of the imperfection of that repentance, must be purged away after death by the pain of intense longing for God, whose blissful vision is delayed, and also, as is commonly taught, by some pain of sense, inflicted probably by material fire. It is of faith that those in purgatory can be helped by the prayers and sacrifices of the faithful on earth and especially by the acceptable Sacrifice of the Altar.
The existence of purgatory is universally taught by all the Fathers of the Church. The words of Our Lord, “You shall not come out from it until you have paid the last penny” are very clear (Matt. 5:25-26). Later, when speaking of the sins against the Holy Spirit, Jesus says that such a sin “will not be forgiven either in this world or in the next,” thus implying that there are some sins that can be atoned for in the next world (Matt. 12:32). Paul also shows his belief in purgatory when, in his second letter to Timothy, he prays for the deceased Onesiphorus. “May the Lord grant him to find mercy from the Lord on that day” (2 Tim. 1:18). Even in the Old Testament there was a belief in the existence of purgatory, for there we find Judas Maccabeus sending 12,000 drachmas to Jerusalem to have sacrifices offered for the sins of the dead. That chapter ends with the advice. “It is therefore a holy and wholesome thought to pray for the dead, that they may be loosed from sins” (2 Mac. 12:46).
you are preaching to the choir… I’m a catechized CAtholic and already know this…

but thanks on behalf of those posters who do not know… 🙂
 
🙂 What does what ever is loosed on earth is loosed in heaven mean? And if in 2nd Maccabees, they prayed for the dead that were holy why did they need prayers? Didnt Jesus say the dead know nothing?
Please get back Thank You Nancy
they know nothing of the Earth any longer…
 
well, i experience a death-like thing while There…

Do you spend much time There? Becasue if you don’t, i don’t see where you have any cause to criticize what i, first-hand, “know” about the Blessed Sacrament… In other words, youcan’t question my reality… (even if you DO spend a lot of time There…seeing as how you are not me and vice versa)…

you are preaching to the choir… I’m a catechized CAtholic and already know this…

but thanks on behalf of those posters who do not know… 🙂
If you already know it to be true that only the physically dead, meaning your body has ceased to live, not just feels like it, are in Purgatory. Again you are arguing from personal experience or what you perceive to be your own private revelations rather than from what the Church clearly teaches on the matter. I think that perhaps some humility may do you well right now in just admitting that what you are experiencing in the physical earthly presence of the Blessed Sacrament is not Purgatory as the Church understands it but that it is a type of purification of your soul that may be painful but is not the same as actually being in Purgatory. The souls in purgatory do not have a corporeal body. Are you going to argue that your soul leaves your coporeal body, then somehow attaches itself to the fires in purgatory, only to then return to your then completely dead body. We know that to live is to keep body and soul together. If the soul leaves the body, the body completely ceases to live.
 
If you already know it to be true that only the physically dead, meaning your body has ceased to live, not just feels like it, are in Purgatory.
this sentence makes no sense… :confused:
Again you are arguing from personal experience or what you perceive to be your own private revelations rather than from what the Church clearly teaches on the matter. I think that perhaps some humility may do you well right now in just admitting that what you are experiencing in the physical earthly presence of the Blessed Sacrament is not Purgatory as the Church understands it but that it is a type of purification of your soul that may be painful but is not the same as actually being in Purgatory.
i am not going to admit something i do not believe to be true…
tThe souls in purgatory do not have a corporeal body. Are you going to argue that your soul leaves your coporeal body, then somehow attaches itself to the fires in purgatory, only to then return to your then completely dead body. We know that to live is to keep body and soul together. If the soul leaves the body, the body completely ceases to live.
you believe what you want and i will beleive what i want…

yet there are some things one just “knows”… whether she can prove it or not… and i am not going to waste my time trying to prove somethign to you that i cannot prove…

If Pope Benedict told me i am wrong, then i would acquiece…
 
AJ I can’t tell whether you get the point I am trying to make or not…
Melanie, AJ and I got into this discussion many days ago. And God love him, AJ seems to hold fast to the principles of Christian individuality. Meaning, God works His truths into everyone differently, including any doctrinal differences in our understandings. These differences are part of the plan…God’s plan for working in our individual lives. If we disagree about something salvific in nature, well, this is not what is fundamentally important. Rather, it is important that Love is in us, and we continue to be open to His Word (which to AJ, is found only in the Bible). To him, it’s all about the experience of life, learning as you go with the guidance of the HS. AJ doesn’t mind that you believe baptism is necessary for your salvation, as is repentance of mortal sin. He would probably say that God has revealed that to you, but since He hasn’t revealed it to him, it’s not significant nor necessary for him. I enjoy discussions with AJ, as he has a notably sincere heart and joyful spirit about him, yet it is very frustrating to help him understand that differences in doctrinal (salvific) truths is NOT okay, is NOT insignificant, DOES ultimately matter. Anyway, I think this is why it is difficult to know whether or not he understands a clear point that you try to make. I think he understands it, but ultimately thinks that the different points of view are insignificant. Hence, the replies that are heavy on generic Godly principles, which all Christians can agree on.

God Bless
 
they know nothing of the Earth any longer…
If that it true, how did Samuel know what would happen to Saul the next day? How did Moses and Elijah know about Jesus crucifixion?

I think something is lacking in your thanatology.
 
If you already know it to be true that only the physically dead, meaning your body has ceased to live, not just feels like it, are in Purgatory. Again you are arguing from personal experience or what you perceive to be your own private revelations rather than from what the Church clearly teaches on the matter. I think that perhaps some humility may do you well right now in just admitting that what you are experiencing in the physical earthly presence of the Blessed Sacrament is not Purgatory as the Church understands it but that it is a type of purification of your soul that may be painful but is not the same as actually being in Purgatory. The souls in purgatory do not have a corporeal body. Are you going to argue that your soul leaves your coporeal body, then somehow attaches itself to the fires in purgatory, only to then return to your then completely dead body. We know that to live is to keep body and soul together. If the soul leaves the body, the body completely ceases to live.
No, it is possible to have an “out of the body” experience. It is also possible to be present in other realities than our physical one here on earth. Both Paul and John talke about being caught up into heaven during a trance like state.
 
No, it is possible to have an “out of the body” experience. It is also possible to be present in other realities than our physical one here on earth. Both Paul and John talke about being caught up into heaven during a trance like state.
That’s true. I guess the question is whether one’s soul can actually leave the body and enter into purgatory and then return. I am doubtful. But then again, I’ve heard that there were saints who were said to have had victim souls that suffered on behalf of others excruciating pains. From what was described by distracted, however, it does not seem that is what is happening here. Victim souls experienced excruciating and intensely agonizing pains from what I’ve heard described, and I don’t believe their souls were ever said to have entered into the actual place of Purgatory. Distracted on the other hand has claimed that the location of Purgatory is wherever the Blessed Sacrament is here on earth and that whenever he is before the Blessed Sacrament he actually enters into Purgatory. If he wants to think that, that’s fine, but it doesn’t seem to match up with Catholic theology at all or at least my understanding thereof.
 
Melanie, AJ and I got into this discussion many days ago. And God love him, AJ seems to hold fast to the principles of Christian individuality. Meaning, God works His truths into everyone differently, including any doctrinal differences in our understandings. These differences are part of the plan…God’s plan for working in our individual lives. If we disagree about something salvific in nature, well, this is not what is fundamentally important. Rather, it is important that Love is in us, and we continue to be open to His Word (which to AJ, is found only in the Bible). To him, it’s all about the experience of life, learning as you go with the guidance of the HS. AJ doesn’t mind that you believe baptism is necessary for your salvation, as is repentance of mortal sin. He would probably say that God has revealed that to you, but since He hasn’t revealed it to him, it’s not significant nor necessary for him. I enjoy discussions with AJ, as he has a notably sincere heart and joyful spirit about him, yet it is very frustrating to help him understand that differences in doctrinal (salvific) truths is NOT okay, is NOT insignificant, DOES ultimately matter. Anyway, I think this is why it is difficult to know whether or not he understands a clear point that you try to make. I think he understands it, but ultimately thinks that the different points of view are insignificant. Hence, the replies that are heavy on generic Godly principles, which all Christians can agree on.

God Bless
Yes Steve, it is rather like trying to “nail jello to the wall” as they say. 🙂

As a member of the original “Flower Child” generation, I think I understand this “Love” thinking. But I don’t subscribe to the John Lennon philosophy of “All you need is love”. It may sound naive but I don’t believe that the assertion that the REAL Holy Spirit sending only one message is divisive. Thought provoking, perhaps, but not divisive.

The idea that God may reveal one thing to me, and not to someone else, and hence it wouldn’t be important to the other person, strikes me as going down the “whatever” path. THAT is what strikes me as a religion of man and not of God.
 
That’s true. I guess the question is whether one’s soul can actually leave the body and enter into purgatory and then return. I am doubtful. But then again, I’ve heard that there were saints who were said to have had victim souls that suffered on behalf of others excruciating pains. From what was described by distracted, however, it does not seem that is what is happening here. Victim souls experienced excruciating and intensely agonizing pains from what I’ve heard described, and I don’t believe their souls were ever said to have entered into the actual place of Purgatory. Distracted on the other hand has claimed that the location of Purgatory is wherever the Blessed Sacrament is here on earth and that whenever he is before the Blessed Sacrament he actually enters into Purgatory. If he wants to think that, that’s fine, but it doesn’t seem to match up with Catholic theology at all or at least my understanding thereof.
It behooves us all not to wait for purgation. It is not so much a place as a state. If one can enter such a state during eucharistic adoration, more power to them! The thief experienced purgation on the cross, so that he could be admitted to paradise that day.

Think of it this way. Love covers a multitude of sins. If one can experience expiating love in adoration, then sins are covered.
 
Where did you get such a premise, I wonder? How come your premise does not apply to all situations, such as Judas?>>>guanophore
One has to follow Gods designs for humanity from the book of Genesis to the point where Jesus died.

First, Adam is expelled “as in lost and without hope” and all generations after him are predestined to be lost as well.

Ref: Rom 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

In that sense we can use the word predestined because technically, that’s the way it is……… until we come to the knowledge and acceptance of our Lord Jesus as our Savior.

Or say, we are all destined to eternal death unless…?

By the same token, Jesus’ sacrifice also predestined the world that through Him it might be saved.

Ref: Rom 8:20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,

Key words: Subject and subjected

This is the big picture that needs to be realized if we are to become one in unity because even our enemies are loved and as precious in His site.

Rom 8:30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

Or in the King James bible: Rom 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

Both predestinate and foreknew are words indicating a hold on something for a final action to be taken at a later time or as a work in progress, such as the salvation of souls daily.

Now as for Judas, we need to see how Judas was carrying out the Fathers design at the Fathers commands. Those commands are written in by Moses representing the period under the law, as Moses is a picture of the law.

Judas in effect represents the end of the law as one who by law delivered Jesus up to the High priest, who also were under the same law.

Judas was in partner ship with Jesus, as were the High Priests who accused Jesus and had Him crucified.

Jesus was in effect fulfilling the complete letter of the law for us and granting us grace from the law as a free gift.

That is why Jesus said: "Father forgive them for they know not what they do”, for had they known and understood what Jesus was up to, they would have never offered Jesus up as a sacrifice.

Hence: Jesus’ very enemies are forgiven as being in the employ of the Fathers will.

Having that understanding does in no way take away the responsibility for us to do good, but in fact makes the not doing of good a more severe penalty in that we shall be vexed in spirit until we find repentance.

Peace>>>AJ
 
Melanie, AJ and I got into this discussion many days ago. And God love him, AJ seems to hold fast to the principles of Christian individuality. Meaning, God works His truths into everyone differently, including any doctrinal differences in our understandings. These differences are part of the plan…God’s plan for working in our individual lives. If we disagree about something salvific in nature, well, this is not what is fundamentally important. Rather, it is important that Love is in us, and we continue to be open to His Word (which to AJ, is found only in the Bible). To him, it’s all about the experience of life, learning as you go with the guidance of the HS. AJ doesn’t mind that you believe baptism is necessary for your salvation, as is repentance of mortal sin. He would probably say that God has revealed that to you, but since He hasn’t revealed it to him, it’s not significant nor necessary for him. I enjoy discussions with AJ, as he has a notably sincere heart and joyful spirit about him, yet it is very frustrating to help him understand that differences in doctrinal (salvific) truths is NOT okay, is NOT insignificant, DOES ultimately matter. Anyway, I think this is why it is difficult to know whether or not he understands a clear point that you try to make. I think he understands it, but ultimately thinks that the different points of view are insignificant. Hence, the replies that are heavy on generic Godly principles, which all Christians can agree on.

God Bless
Steve, I appreciate your ability to articulate my thoughts in the written word.
I am not gifted in that area, but have to stumble as I go to explain my thoughts.
But there to, I believe lies a plan, because in the process some are given to search their own thoughts and beliefs, in tailoring them to conform more directly to the love one another command Jesus left us with.

If we could look into the soul of man, we would not find mankind’s beliefs or practices an obstacle, because we would then know how to apply the right action to help that soul achieve what we all have, and then we’d be in unity.

Since we can’t see into the soul of each person the Holy Spirit can, and our instructions are to love despite what face of reality that individual has.

And by so doing, the Holy spirit does His greatest work in converting the soul, by transforming the dead spirit into life, and begin to flush out from within the things outside which were a hindrance.

I therefore stress that Godly action be taken from the heart rather than from some institutionalized decree.

I believe strongly that there in lies the secret to reaching the world to Christ.

Peace>>>AJ
 
🙂 I believe their alive spritualy but not connected to this world. Nancy
Nancy,

I heard a great explanation on EWTN of how the saints are all around us and do know what is taking place by Dr. Scott Hahn.
Here’s a quick verses that I remembered, but there are many more. In Rev. 6:9-11, the saints in heaven who had been martyred for the faith ask the Lord how long that he will not judge and revenge their blood. These saints must have had some knowledge of what was taking place on earth to make such a statement. They were then told to rest until the number of those slain on earth becomes “filled up.”

The Baltimore Catechism answers a lot of questions in a very simple and easy to understand way. Here’s what it says on the Communion of the Saints:
ourladyswarriors.org/faith/bc3-31.htm
Q. 1197. How do we know that the saints hear us?
A. We know that the saints hear us, because they are with God, who makes our prayers known to them.

Q. 1198. Why do we believe that the saints will help us?
A. We believe that the saints will help us because both they and we are members of the same Church, and they love us as their brethren.

Q. 1199. How are the saints and we members of the same Church?
A. The saints and we are members of the same Church, because the Church in heaven and the Church on earth are one and the same Church, and all its members are in communion with one another.

Q. 1201. What does the communion of saints mean?
A. The communion of saints means the union which exists between the members of the Church on earth with one another, and with the blessed in Heaven, and with the suffering souls in Purgatory.

Here are some other great articles that should help explain it better for you Nancy:
cin.org/users/james/files/praying.htm
cin.org/users/james/questions/q040.htm
bringyou.to/apologetics/a96.htm

Hope this helps! God bless.
 
Yes Steve, it is rather like trying to “nail jello to the wall” as they say. 🙂

As a member of the original “Flower Child” generation, I think I understand this “Love” thinking. But I don’t subscribe to the John Lennon philosophy of “All you need is love”. It may sound naive but I don’t believe that the assertion that the REAL Holy Spirit sending only one message is divisive. Thought provoking, perhaps, but not divisive.

The idea that God may reveal one thing to me, and not to someone else, and hence it wouldn’t be important to the other person, strikes me as going down the “whatever” path. THAT is what strikes me as a religion of man and not of God.
Love is played down as meaningless unless there is sacrifice to back it up.

This verse applied to Jesus and applies to us as well: Joh 15:13 Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.

Jesus laid down His life for us, and likewise if we but indicate we could do the same by how we act is our love made perfect.

1Jo 4:17 Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as he is, so are we in this world.

Day of Judgment is in the here and now as it says: “so are we in this world” present tense, and not a future judgment, but today.

Love has no bounds, Godly love I mean, for what soul in the grips of hell would we not make an attempt to rescue, even if it would cost us our lives?

That soul could be a fellow Catholic, a Protestant, a Muslim, a Mormon and who cares, what matters is the soul, whether that soul can know what we know and be joined to the family of believers.

Peace>>>AJ
 
It behooves us all not to wait for purgation. It is not so much a place as a state. If one can enter such a state during eucharistic adoration, more power to them! The thief experienced purgation on the cross, so that he could be admitted to paradise that day.

Think of it this way. Love covers a multitude of sins. If one can experience expiating love in adoration, then sins are covered.
To clarify, I would say properly speaking that one’s sins would not just be “covered.” I really think we need to start another thread on purgatory for this, seriously. Purgatory is the cleansing from the temporal punishment due to sins that have already been forgiven. We suffer for and are freed from our attachments to sin and on account of the temporal punishment that our sins have gained. We are making amends or reparation so to speak for the damage we have done to our souls by sin. We absolutely should suffer and make reparation for our sins here and now rather when it is easier rather than in the next life when it will be tremendously more painful and difficult. We do experience purgation from sins here in this life, but that purgation is not the same thing as one actually being in Purgatory properly understood as the Catholic Church has defined it.
 
well, i experience a death-like thing while There…
If your body doesn’t cease to function completely, to the point where someone calls an ambulance and has you taken away to the morgue pending notification of next of kin, then you are not in Purgatory. You are just deep in prayer. (And maybe having an asthma attack … 🤷 )
Do you spend much time There? Becasue if you don’t, i don’t see where you have any cause to criticize what i, first-hand, “know” about the Blessed Sacrament… In other words, youcan’t question my reality… (even if you DO spend a lot of time There…seeing as how you are not me and vice versa)…
There is not such a thing as “my reality” and “your reality.” We all live in the same one.

The reality is that Purgatory is one of the states of the afterlife (the other two are Heaven and Hell). It does not occur during this life at all.
 
Now as for Judas, we need to see how Judas was carrying out the Fathers design at the Fathers commands. Those commands are written in by Moses representing the period under the law, as Moses is a picture of the law.
Please demonstrate this in scripture, lest it appear to be a speculation on your part.
Judas in effect represents the end of the law as one who by law delivered Jesus up to the High priest, who also were under the same law.
Scripture is clear that neither Judas’ betrayal, nor his trial and conviction were lawful in any way.
Judas was in partner ship with Jesus, as were the High Priests who accused Jesus and had Him crucified.
This is an absurd comment. Unless perhaps you mean by “partnership” that they were intertwined in His life to bring about HIs death.
Jesus was in effect fulfilling the complete letter of the law for us and granting us grace from the law as a free gift.
By being in partnership with Judas and the Pharisees?
Having that understanding does in no way take away the responsibility for us to do good, but in fact makes the not doing of good a more severe penalty in that we shall be vexed in spirit until we find repentance.
Rebels against God, but still forgiven, and saved? Vexed, but glorified, because even as His enemies, we do His will?
 
Now as for Judas, we need to see how Judas was carrying out the Fathers design at the Fathers commands. Those commands are written in by Moses representing the period under the law, as Moses is a picture of the law.

Judas in effect represents the end of the law as one who by law delivered Jesus up to the High priest, who also were under the same law.

Judas was in partner ship with Jesus, as were the High Priests who accused Jesus and had Him crucified…
Jesus’ very enemies are forgiven as being in the employ of the Fathers will.
Sounds like Gnosticism to me. Have you been reading from the heretical gospel of Thomas lately or something? Perhaps you should read the Scriptures more often and also do so within the context of the Tradition with which they were handed down. The early Church fathers understandings on Scripture will help a lot too. Here’s what Jesus said about Judas:
Matt. 26:24, Mark 14:21, Luke 22:22: “The Son of man indeed goeth, as it is written of him. But woe to that man by whom the Son of man shall be betrayed. It were better for him, if that man had not been born.”
Three gospels report this woe on Judas. Jesus also proscribed many woes to the Pharisees as well and called them hypocrites and said they have SATAN as their father not God! (But then again, you think Jesus and satan are the same probably don’t you?)
Jesus perfectly carried out the Father’s will and said that he and his Father are one. So if Jesus, the Son, was of the same mind as the Father, then how could he be condemning Judas and the Pharisees yet at the same time they be doing his will? Do you not see the contradiction?

Do you believe that Jesus is the true God from true God, eternally begotten and consubstantial (meaning of the same substance or essence) as God the Father?

The views your are promoting reek of heresy to me. I’m curious, where did you get these views or did you come up with them yourself?
 
If your body doesn’t cease to function completely, to the point where someone calls an ambulance and has you taken away to the morgue pending notification of next of kin, then you are not in Purgatory.
I am so…
There is not such a thing as “my reality” and “your reality.” We all live in the same one.
gee, nice to meet someone who knows all about me - and everything else…
 
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