Why do you think God allowed Protestantism?

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God created us free.

At the end of times, God will judge everybody according to his and her deeds.

God doesn’t change our way of life just because He can, He does it when we sincerely ask Him with faith and absolute confidence in Him and He does it at the time of His choice and when He sees it appropriate and useful for us and our salvation.

It is not that God is allowing this or that, it is man who is making a choice that God is offering him.
 
In an attempt to translate your words here, AJ…
I think you’re saying…“look, I’ve come so far with the knowledge I have gained, I am circumcised of heart, God dwells within me…why would I now go to some man-made edifice, follow some man-made tradition, and deny the knowledge God has placed within me?”
How’s that? Pretty accurate?>>>Steve
It is not why should I, which is a demand by your insistence that I should which is the real issue.

I have been given to understand by the circumcision of the heart, which is a spiritual action by God in my soul’s heart, creating in me a new creature, one of a heavenly reference to life eternal separate from any earthly attachment.

Everything physical is temporary and when I leave here, I will have taken nothing with me except the love which was born in me for God.

If you translate that to mean that I don’t care to belong to the Catholic Church, than that is an issue with you that you have to resolve for yourself.

I have no such issues.

I live daily with the attitude that my God is with me and I take Him where ever I go, and talk about Him whenever I can, but basically, to live with respect to other peoples beliefs giving them every opportunity to show that God is also with them.

Love, the Godly type can be evident in people who claim no affiliations.

Questionable, are some who do espouse affiliations by the evidence.

So what is being judged here or being the object of discernment?

It is the evidence of Godly love, in demonstration which identifies who or what we are.

Peace>>>AJ

P.S. We are getting somewhere.
 
How about this response? Yes…I would hope (and certainly pray) that you would do that…return to The Church, but not under the rationale that you hold so tightly in your heart, and certainly not to make me happy (although that might just be an after-effect). Rather, I would want you to do this because somehow, along your way, you have severed yourself from the truth. Not that you are severed from God. Not at all. I truly believe Christ dwells in you, even if I believe that is possible because of His Church on earth. But you have severed yourself from His Body. Not his physical body, nor a physical building. But His mystical body, His teaching authority, His instrument of distributing graces. It happens to include the physical “things” you think it’s limited to. But again, if you devote yourself to discerning the truth of The Church, open yourself up to it again, you will see.
God Bless>>>Steve
My answer, I am stronger in faith because of my view than if I went to church regularly.

It is what is in me that stands the test of whether I will given in to evil or not. The church can not do that for me.

But, I appreciate the thought though, if it makes you hold to the truth in a more secure way, than that’s what you need more than what I need.

The object of my message is for individuals to learn to stand on Jesus as their security without any outside influences.

If that can be done, then there is no fear of failing and or of falling into a trap set by mankind’s views.

Peace>>>AJ
 
one must never condone, as the US always has, the freedom to do whatever one chooses to one’s neighbor (Blacks, Indians, Catholics, the unborn)…Distracted
I agree to this point, that in the process of a child growing up it must encounter obstacles that must be overcome with good.

We may tend to condemn the U.S. for past sins, but must look instead at the gain we have achieved.
Evil will always be present, no matter what.
But if enough good people take control, evil can be kept to a minimum and the body U.S. prospers to wards adult hood.

Peace>>>AJ
 
well, so far, we’ve been fighting abortion for 35 years… and its still legal and probably will be for a long time… the blood goes on spilling into the streets… and people just step over on their way to the voting booth to vote for Mr. Most Pro Abortion Senator of All so they can have a better economy and possibly make more $.>>>Distracted
Doesn’t mean we have to vote for it.
We vote what we believe to be a Godly desire.

Peace>>>AJ
 
“religion” cannot logically be separated from “government”. The whole reason for government is that people need to be governed because humans left to themselves tend to be very irreligious (greedy, lustful, etc.)… True religion is the ONLY thing that will keep us from killing each other off… You cannot separate the two. They are virtually the same thing…>>>Distracted

If religion was to be the religion of government, then we shall all tremble and fear, because you know what can happen if evil gets a hold of the leader?

The inquisition, the dark ages have somewhat to say about that.

Peace>>>AJ
 
God created us free.>>>FLCatholic
Let me make an adjustment to your statement: God has created us free “to chose” but not free from eternal death, for that we were subjected to it and not by our own “free” will.
At the end of times, God will judge everybody according to his and her deeds.>>> FLCatholic
What’s wrong with now? Try being rebellious and see if God won’t notice it.
God doesn’t change our way of life just because He can, He does it when we sincerely ask Him with faith and absolute confidence in Him and He does it at the time of His choice and when He sees it appropriate and useful for us and our salvation.>>> FLCatholic
Your correct in the most part, we change our lives by the infusion of His love that then causes us to change, called repentance. (Change of mind)
And true, we all have our time.

Peace>>>AJ
 
OP: Why pick a vague concept such as Protestantism to be something in particular that God would allow or disallow, especially when there are so many more funda-mentally pressing issues? What is your particular interest in Protestantism? Why do you believe that God has a function called “allowing?” Why would God, if He allows, allow Catholicism, another vague concept?

I’m calling these “vague concepts” because they always seem to be in need of correction by some agency, whether human or allegedly Divine. For example, many on here have the “right” divinely, or non, sponsored “answer.” Many of them, about the same thing.

I’m saying this because this is the non-Catholic channel, and clearly everyone doesn’t subscribe to your personal notions about God and other assumptions inherent in your question despite your protestations of correctness. If anyone’s God concept is so fundamentally true, why are we not as easily convinced as we are about, say gravity. Is not God more fundamental than gravity? Gravity can be experienced. If anyone here has experienced God as an objectifiable arguement, they don’t seem to have presented it well.

That leaves us with belief. That is a grown up word for “let’s act as if.” Nothing wrong with that, as long as you are awake to knowing that you are taking your own best shot, not trying to shoot someone else with invisible bullets. The Bible (of any system) can be conjecturally interpreted, and is, regardless of authorities quoted. One’s personal accepting of a belief system, religious, political, economic, or whatever, is a matter of subjective experience. If I was an alien watching all this, I’d just say that Earthlings have no commonly shared understanding of universally true principals beyond some primitive utility of basic forces of Nature. As to their thinking, I’d be tempted to conclude that that was a basic farce of Nature, as evidenced by their inability to agree on the one absolute fundamental, God. The disagreement proves the inconsistency of the thinking.

Though I am a convinced believer in God with a strong history in Catholicism (amended though it is), I honestly think that at least in terms of commonly experiencible factors, the atheists on here usually have the edge in the ways of sanity. At least they include external and observable referents in their presentations and are more likely to shun subjectivity as common proof. And yet that subjectivity may be the final way of conviction, but not by any means presented here, as far as I can tell.

So basically I’m asking what’s the point of such a vague question as the OP other than to cause religious fomentation? Maybe it would be a good idea to keep our beliefs to ourselves unless asked, and in the mean time be so wonderful that someone actually might. To me that would include not taking bait obviously designed to prove a personal agenda.
 
It is not why should I, which is a demand by your insistence that I should which is the real issue.
Where did I say “should”, AJ? Where have I EVER been even remotely demanding or insistent? “Should” is YOUR word, not mine. Mine was “would”, in the sense of you saying, why would I put my faith into a building of men and deny my indwelling Spirit?. Let’s keep it real, AJ. Don’t put words, nor intentions, in my mouth.

That being said, I think I do understand your plight to remain forever outside The Church. It all goes back to the same old rigid thinking…that The Church is man-made. A forum serves no good to reveal the falsehood of that thinking, AJ. You’ll have to want to figure it out, which you don’t, so all we can really do is pray for you and wish you well with your theological positions.
P.S. We are getting somewhere.
No. really…we’re not.

God Bless
 
A well written and articulated post, and I envy the person who can present it that way.

I believe that the non-Catholic category thread is the best means of getting an objective view of what to,or not to, believe.

Without exposure to other sources, it could keep one in the dark, if darkness was defined as only one view, of which it could be all darkness or, all light.

Gods creation of two opposites Darkness and the day light was intended to divide, for comparison and for choosing the one over the other.

The problem that I see here on this thread is not the discussion of why God allowed protestantism, but rather to convince the Protestants to return to the Catholic point of view and practices.

My view incorporates all religious thought to one sound principle, and that is, that God so loved the world that He made provision
to save mankind from the lost condition it found itself in.

Prior to Jesus’ coming, there was but one, for there was but only one form of knowledge of God, and that was through the God of Abraham, Issac and Jacob.

After Christ resurrection, God granted life to the dead souls of mankind via the sacrifice of Jesus, making of Jew and Gentile one body.

The question of salvation is in the discovery.

When it is discovered it is a spiritual transformation manifested in the flesh.

That being the case, there are no compliance’s required other than to love God and neighbor.

Peace>>>AJ
 
AJ, Actually Jesus did leave us with some commandments. When Catholics attend Mass, they are following one of the commandments that Jesus left for us to follow. While loving God and neighbor are certainly important, the commands (and they ARE commands, they’re not suggestions) of Jesus do not end with loving God and neighbor.

People can, of course, choose to ignore those things Jesus commanded us to do (and many do make such a choice) but that does not change the fact that Jesus did command certain things of His people beyond loving Him and others.

If you’ll recall, one message Jesus left us with is that if we loved Him we would keep His commandments. Jesus obviously intended, throughout His ministry, for love of God and neighbor to be more than words or thoughts, but also action.
 
I know I am not in form here because of my views, but I know in faith without a doubt that what I am lead to believe has been tried in the furnace of life to Gods credit and my reward.

I wish to share that liberty in which Christ has made me.

That liberty addresses only that which touches the heart and one which claims no religious belief.

Peace>>>AJ
AJ, CAF is not a venue for you to evangelize with your liberty views that represent a different gospel.

We are here to answer sincere questions about the Catholic faith.

Have you considered starting your own site where you can pander your views?
 
These are my conclusions:

God allowed Protestantism for the same reason he allows anything: he gave man freedom to conquer the world, do whatever he chooses. He gave him the choice of whether or not to reject Him and/or His revealed truth (Scripture/Church teachings).

Martin Luther was a human being with free will… He didn’t want to live by the strict teachings of the Church, which are only “strict” and “demanding” when one doesn’t love Jesus Christ with all one’s heart (or one’s self, i might add. Sin destroys people).

anyway… God could have intervened & stopped M. Luther, somehow (even w/o interfering w/ his free will…) from forming another so-called (man-made) church; he could have given him some weird disease… which maybe he did eventually because he didn’t live very long… but in any case, God did stop M. Luther, through the actions of Catholics and others who opposed him. Many opposed him which is why we (today) have a new church starting every week in this country… (35,000 denominations & counting). In any case, one can look around & see that the condition of the world and its sinfulness has gotten worse & worse with each passing decade… pretty soon we will be seeing actual sex on TV… We virtually see it now…

anyway, I’m not impressed with the legacy of Protestantism… until 1930 all Prot religions were against birth control. Now they are virtually ALL in favor of it… so then that led to abortion. Same thing: used to be most Prot religions were against it. Now they almost all teach its OK in some situations. Only the Catholic Church has not changed its position and never wil…

so however we got Protestantism, I am not impressed… to say the least…
 
This entire “allowed” business rankles me in two ways: One, it has the sense of Creation being very much like God’s “train set.” Second, any argumentations or conjectures about what God wills, taken personally, are highly loaded and very dangerous.

First, it just doesn’t make sense to me that God would need to interfere with His creation on an ad hoc or even planned basis. Ad hoc implies imperfection in God’s ability to create something worthy of His Perfect Nature. Continuous maintainence, in the form of either “nudges” or continuing design adjustments, imply an aspect of entertainment or of God changing His Mind. This “ex machina” seeming interference also seems to contradict free will.

It also doesn’t answer the contention of some philosophies that the matter of change is God acting as, as distinct from on. All of the above seem to imply God acting in time, which would contradict the eternal (unchanging) Nature of God. This may not include the appearence of Jesus, which is another case for concern in the remarkably numerous terms in which it is understood.

Second, one need only look around to see that God is invoked as the power Who is on the side of a person, team, nation, or even a religion. That brings to attention the possibility that God is using some of His children to smite His other children who through ignorance or whatever don’t subscribe to the ways of the smiters. In any case, what good would that do? The smitten would attribute the smite to the smiters, not to God. In this way, historically few have been so dangerous as those who were convinced one way or another that God was on their side, even prompting and sanctifying their action. This is what cults and terrorist are made of. Such a stance as side taking also tends to support the nonsensical idea that God is divided against Himself.

This whole adversarial divison brought on by the antropomorphization of a god bent to political or other causes, especially to religious causes, has wreaked havoc in the world. And please, please, please, don’t come back with the statement “But mine IS right!” I see as many kinds of Catholicism out there in terms of practice as I do of the 35,000 denominations. And that doesn’t include the non-christainists, a few of whom to me seem sometimes saner the “we” are.

One of the very worst of these false attitudes about “allowing” is perfectly voiced by distracted. That exceptionally dangereous attitude is contained in the words “he gave man freedom to conquer the world,…” (emphasis mine.) This is the typical christianist missionary/industrialist adversarial attitude about our existance that has raped the resources of the Earth and destroyed or enslaved useful civilizations. It makes man(un)kind superior to, not a part of, the Earth scenario. It carries with it the very irrisponsible notion that at some point, Jesus acting in His capacity as “the cavalry,” will come and save us all-- of course those saved would be the good christians only of whichever of the 35,000 stripes and members folks are claiming to be the *only true *ones thereof.

I would also ask if it was not arrogance on the part of a poster to propose to know how their God works and allegedly thinks, or even to speculate to have an idea of what the options, if any in those terms, of Diety might be. Maybe you will carry your “not impressed” with you to your own manufactured theological place of infernal punishment.

I know that there is a book about the “Deliberate Dumbing Down of America,” but am sad, without claiming perfection for meyself, to see from evidence on here that that dumbing seems to have affected some Catholics as well. Maybe St. Augustine was right about pious people making themselves look foolish. That seems to be the case where one’s faith appears to be used as a tool to feel right, as distinct from a living way of *being *Love. I doubt that God, like a woman, might be bought by arguement or conversation in lieu of feeling, devotion and action.

Perhaps we are “allowed” to think that a loving God is infinite to the point of being inclusive of *all *His children. I shudder to think what families would be like if the antropomorphised God was an actual example of how to treat one’s children. Or maybe in the myriads of dysfunctional situations rampant today, we are doing just that?
 
Name one or two reasons you think God allowed Protestantism.

I think one reason might be that Catholicism is so… difficult, that maybe God wanted there to be an “easier, softer” way that would lead people to Christ (and He knew that many would then be led to the RC Church)?? Just a thought.

Also, i think that Protestants generally focus on different things than Catholics do, different “aspects” of God, things that are nonetheless very important… like, well… i just think that sometimes they are more… friendly… & i feel they may trust in God’s mercy more than a lot of Catholics…
I think there was a terrible sun spot that caused these three constellations to form a large black hole that started sucking up all the guiness on this small planet subalt 4 on a very large constellation really really far away and well he was for a microsecond …distracted
 
In an attempt to translate your words here, AJ…

I think you’re saying…“look, I’ve come so far with the knowledge I have gained, I am circumsized of heart, God dwells within me…why would I now go to some man-made edifice, follow some man-made tradition, and deny the knowledge God has placed within me?”

How’s that? Pretty accurate?

How about this response? Yes…I would hope (and certainly pray) that you would do that…return to The Church, but not under the rationale that you hold so tightly in your heart, and certainly not to make me happy (although that might just be an after-effect). Rather, I would want you to do this because somehow, along your way, you have severed yourself from the truth. Not that you are severed from God. Not at all. I truly believe Christ dwells in you, even if I believe that is possible because of His Church on earth. But you have severed yourself from His Body. Not his physical body, nor a physical building. But His mystical body, His teaching authority, His instrument of distributing graces. It happens to include the physical “things” you think it’s limited to. But again, if you devote yourself to discerning the truth of The Church, open yourself up to it again, you will see.

God Bless
Father John, now that’s a priest who can scare the bejesus out of you, isnt he like ex starship trooper?
 
I am just glad that God doesn’t label us according to religion(which He hates) or denomination! We are all precious in His sight, and John 14:6 does not say that the only Way to the Father is through any church, let alone the catholic church! And any one who is not catholic, is labeled Protestant! Then there are those of us, who go by the title of believer; not tied to or bound by any religious sect! I was reading a thread about the catholic church being the boat of truth and all the little boats aroun it were Protestant boats going the same way, but not having the whole truth! Bottom line is, regardless of which boat you’re in, if you are in Christ, you have the Truth(Jesus in John 14:6)👍
 
I am just glad that God doesn’t label us according to religion(which He hates) or denomination! We are all precious in His sight, and John 14:6 does not say that the only Way to the Father is through any church, let alone the catholic church! And any one who is not catholic, is labeled Protestant! Then there are those of us, who go by the title of believer; not tied to or bound by any religious sect! I was reading a thread about the catholic church being the boat of truth and all the little boats aroun it were Protestant boats going the same way, but not having the whole truth! Bottom line is, regardless of which boat you’re in, if you are in Christ, you have the Truth(Jesus in John 14:6)👍
Do you?
 
I am just glad that God doesn’t label us according to religion(which He hates) or denomination!
Where are you getting the idea from that God hates religion? :confused:
We are all precious in His sight, and John 14:6 does not say that the only Way to the Father is through any church, let alone the catholic church!
And yet, He said to Saul, “Saul Saul why persecutest thou Me?” instead of saying, “Hey, good job, let’s get rid of that Catholic Church!”

Jesus clearly identifies Himself with the Catholic Church - it is His body on earth - we are His hands and feet. (I Corinthians 12)
 
The catholic church isn’t a religion, it is christs church. Religions are what man made after christ church was established. Yes ther are some truths in those beliefs but only parts.it is intersting that 1believer made a comment about all of us going to heaven yet protestant belief even non denomination religions teach catholics are not saved because they believe they are saved by works. Of course us catholics don’t believe we are saved by works but it is interesting that she made that comment.
 
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