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PJM
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Please help ME out here.Gleepwurp: I’m not following how something that cannot be proven to exist is a “reasonable truth” whether it is purgatory, reincarnation, or anything else. A reasonable theory yes but not a truth.
As for why I believe catholics believe in purgatory, it is what the church teaches.
It is reasonable in my view to believe more than one life is required to reach the kingdom of god, bliss, enlightenment or whatever any particular tradition calls it. More than one life is not meant by me to be specifically another physical life. Hope I’m clearing my viewpoint up and not making things muddier.
Are you saying that YOU do not believe in an after life?
And just for the RECORD, our Catholic belief is NOT “just because its what the church teaches”
This belief is logical when viewed from the Perspective of a MORAL & PERFECT God who freely choose to CREATE humanity in HIS own image. Gen 1:26-27
1 Tim. 2: 3-5
[3] For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour,** [4] Who will have all men to be saved, and to come to the knowledge of the truth.** [5] For there is one God, and one mediator of God and men, the man Christ Jesus:
Purgatory exist ONLY because of the LOVE God has for the summit of His Creation.
GBY
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Hmmmmm,
Interestering position.
But what is missing is the role of FAITH & God’s grace to understand it.
Because God can be nothing less that “Perfectly Good”; and because humanity CAN be proven logically and I think even scientifically [who cannot disprove it]; that humanity DOES alone in all of the created universe’s BILLIONS of things; DOES emulate our God;
Gen.1 Verses 26 to 27 [send me a private message if you wish to see the evidence; I don’t want to derail this thread]
[26] Then God said, “Let us make man in our image, after our likeness; and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the birds of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creeps upon the earth.”
[27] So God created man in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.
Which SEEMS to logically be contradicted by
John.4 Verses 23 to 24
[23] But the hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth, for such the Father seeks to worship him.
[24] God is spirit, and those who worship him must worship in spirit and truth." [man is mortal]
And it IS because there IS an after life; an after life that WE personally choose by our life choices that God’s LOVE is evident and manifest through Purgatory.
Even to the pint of theologically being a necessary manifestation of God’s Perfect Goodness.GBY
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PJM
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Hi,
I’m the OP
And I never head this position expressed before. May I ask; WHY NOT?
Thank you
God Bless
Patrick
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PJM
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Hi, I’m the OP
As a student I am curious of just what YOU mean by “being saved from sin?”
ALSO just to be clear [and TO GIVE YOU SOMETHING TO PONDER]
There is a relavance to Purgatory and our human lives. Life IS the {A} God test:thumbsup:
GBY and thanks for posting
Patrick
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puzzledtoo
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PJM: I’m not saying I don’t believe in an afterlife. I very much believe in an afterlife.There is proof/evidence enough for me in what I’ve experienced in this life to leave me with no doubt there is something after this physical existence. I don’t know what form whatever happens after this life takes nor do I believe that important. This life right now and how I live it is what is important.
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Here’s the short answer
GOD: defined as ALL GOOD THINGS PERFECTED
Because God can ONLY LOVE His creation man, perfectly [1 Tim 2:3-5], God in a moral sense HAS to do all that HE CAN, to make salvation of as many souls as HIS Justice will permit POSSIBLE.
SO Purgatory exist as a direct extension of GOD"S LOVE for man, by permitting NOT a lowering of the essential conditions for entry into heaven; NO, but by making possible that those Souls that are not YET 'perfect; as is GOD and a prerequisite for entry into the Beatific Vision [meeting God “face to face.”] ; COULD be made perfect after DEATH, so long as they died in the “Sate of God’s grace; even in an imperfect manner.” Those souls that dies with unconfessed, unforgiven MORTAL sins [1John 5:16-17; John 20: 19-23] are SELF-condemned to eternal hell.
Lev.22: 21 “And when any one offers a sacrifice of peace offerings to the LORD, to fulfill a vow or as a freewill offering, from the herd or from the flock, to be accepted it must be perfect; there shall be no blemish in it.
Rev. 21: 27 “But nothing unclean shall enter it, nor anyone who practices abomination or falsehood, but only those who are written in the Lamb’s book of life.”
Mt. 5: 26 truly, I say to you, you will never get out till you have paid the last penny.
Matt.5: 48 “You, therefore, must be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.”
Heb. 2: 10 For it was fitting that he, for whom and by whom all things exist, in bringing many sons to glory, should make the pioneer of their salvation perfect through suffering
GBY
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My friend, I"M unc;ear of your teaching here
So what do YOU hold to be “the process of purification?” [Not disagreeing necessarily, just asking for clarification]
GBY
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OneBlanketBoss
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If you you may…answer my previous question. Does this not mean that EVERY saved soul has to undergo some sort of purification. You are a Catholic, right? Now do you believe that Saints are perfect beings before they die and enter heaven?Here’s the short answer
GOD: defined as ALL GOOD THINGS PERFECTED
Because God can ONLY LOVE His creation man, perfectly [1 Tim 2:3-5], God in a moral sense HAS to do all that HE CAN, to make salvation of as many souls as HIS Justice will permit POSSIBLE.
SO Purgatory exist as a direct extension of GOD"S LOVE for man, by permitting NOT a lowering of the essential conditions for entry into heaven; NO, but by making possible that those Souls that are not YET 'perfect; as is GOD and a prerequisite for entry into the Beatific Vision [meeting God “face to face.”] ; COULD be made perfect after DEATH, so long as they died in the “Sate of God’s grace; even in an imperfect manner.” Those souls that dies with unconfessed, unforgiven MORTAL sins [1John 5:16-17; John 20: 19-23] are SELF-condemned to eternal hell.
Lev.22: 21 “And when any one offers a sacrifice of peace offerings to the LORD, to fulfill a vow or as a freewill offering, from the herd or from the flock, to be accepted it must be perfect; there shall be no blemish in it.
Rev. 21: 27 “But nothing unclean shall enter it, nor anyone who practices abomination or falsehood, but only those who are written in the Lamb’s book of life.”
Mt. 5: 26 truly, I say to you, you will never get out till you have paid the last penny.
Matt.5: 48 “You, therefore, must be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.”
Heb. 2: 10 For it was fitting that he, for whom and by whom all things exist, in bringing many sons to glory, should make the pioneer of their salvation perfect through suffering
GBY
Patrick
I thought only God is perfect and every other being is imperfect?
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PJM
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REPLY:
1st Welcome to CAF!
My mane is Patrick & I’m the OP of this string
As you are new to ACF, you may not be aware yet that this FORUM limits the size of post. So I will be as brief as I can be in addressing you well -articulated concerns.
I’m going to include the bible passages, space permitting. BUT just in case, here is a FREE site you can use to look them up for yourself.
http://drbo.org/
Catholic teachings flow from historical, biblical and Sacred Tradition. The Bible BTW is a Catholic Book. It was the early Catholic Fathers who selected the 67 OT books to be included, guided by the HS in doing so. And it was the Early Church Fathers who actually AUTHORED the ENTIRE 27 book NT
So a partial answer to your WHY Question rest in the FACT that the authors and birthers of the bible were chosen by GOD, and protected by GOD to teach ALL of His truths. Which Can OMLY be singular per defined issue. Nothing else is logical, moral or possible.
In reading these passages please pay CLOSE attention to the singular tense words that the GOD inspired authors choose to use. THIS IS THE VERY SHORT VERSION
Before I get into this, permit me to ask for your evidence that the bible Cf:”has contradictory teachings” on this subject. I’d like to clear that up too
**1. Mt 10: parts of 1-8 **
And having called his twelve disciples together, he [CHRIST] gave THEM power over unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal all manner of diseases, and all manner of infirmities. And the names of the twelve apostles are these: THE FIRST Simon who is called Peter, and Andrew his brother, THESE twelve Jesus sent: commanding THEM saying: Go YOU not into the way of the Gentiles, and into the city of the Samaritans enter ye not. But go YOU; Heal the sick, raise the dead, cleanse the lepers, cast out devils
2. Mt 16:16-19
Simon Peter answered AND SAID: Thou art Christ, the Son of the living God. And JESUS answering, TO HIM: Blessed art YOU, Simon Bar-Jona: because flesh and blood hath not revealed it to THEE, but my Father who is in heaven. AndI SAY to YOU: That thou art Peter; and upon [YOU PETER] this rock I will build MY CHURCH [SINGULAR], and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. And I WILL give to YOU [PETER DIRECTLY & EXCLUSIVELY[ ALL OF IMPLIED] the keys of the kingdom of heaven. And whatsoever YOU shalt bind [TEACH] upon earth, it shall be bound also in heaven: and whatsoever YOU shalt loose [MAKE VOID BY YOUR TEACHING] upon earth, it shall be loosed also in heaven
3. John 17:17-20
[YOU GOD THE FATHER REQUESTED BY JESUS; DIRECTLY AND EXCLUSIVELY TO HIS APOSTLES] Sanctify THEM in truth. Thy word IS TRUTH [GOD CANNOT DENY HIS OWN REQUEST]. As THOU hast sent ME into the world, I [CHRIST] also have sent THEM into the world. AND FOR THEM [EXCLUSIVELY & DIRECTLY] DO I [CHRIST] SANCTIFY [THAT IS OFFER] MYSELF, that THEY ALSO WILL be sanctified in truth. And not for them only do I pray, but for them also who through their word shall believe in me
4. Mt 28:19-20
And JESUS coming, spoke TO THEM, saying: All power is given to me in heaven and in earth. Going therefore, TEACH YOU ALL NATIONS; baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost. Teaching them to observe ALL THINGS whatsoever II GOD HAVE commanded YOU [DIRECT & EXCLUSIVE]: and behold I am WITH YOU all days, even to the consummation of the world.
Friend toy ALMOST “got it”
“saints” fall into 2 categories.
1 Those recognized by the magisterium [Catholic Teaching authority and guided by the HS] as having died with their Souls in a PERFECT STATE [no sin and no Temporal Punishment that all sins acquire] [SAINTS} with a capitol “S”
Hence they ARE truly perfect.
The process is termed Canonization and as the NORM, requires impartial scientific- evidence of 2 miracles; which means GOD had the final WORD in this declaration
2. Are ALL of those souls who do eventually attain heaven ONCE their souls have been perfected through the purgation of Purgatory. Nothing imperfect CAN enter in t the Beatific Vision [meeting GOD “Face to face.”] God is WORTHY and accepts nothing less than PERFECTION into His Divine & Perfect Presence; and GOD makes such a difficult, BUT true possibility.
So YES MY FRIEND, we would “debate it”
That my friend under-estimates the POWER of GOD, POSSIBLE effects of GRACE& the resolve of those Saints [BIG “S”], who the Church, guided by the HS has Canonized.
WELCOEM to CAF!
God Bless you,
Patrick [PJM] here on CAF
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CORRECT
BUT not FULLY understood.
Please read my POST reply to your POST #49 which explains this
God Bless you, and welcome to CAF
What your missing is 1 Jn 5:16-17 & John 20:1923 and GRACE and Sacrifies and Good works.
Patrick
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OneBlanketBoss
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Thanks for answering my friend.
Now I do know that the Roman Catholic Church believes the early christians were Catholics, the Bible is a Catholic Book, there is no salvation outside the Catholic Church and ect and ect.
However lets for sakes say the bible is a Catholic book, the Catholic Church and its members need to then be able to explain scripture in totality. You as a Catholic brought up the verse " You shall not enter untill you pay the last penny" so basically I was just asking…all Saints are human beings who commited sin in one shape or form. IF you can enter paradise unless you pay the last penny then they too need to enter purgatory? Correct?
“Be Perfect like your Heavenly Father is Perfect” Considering no Saint in the history of the Catholic Church is actually Perfect they too need to be cleansed? Correct?
Now I do know that the Roman Catholic Church believes the early christians were Catholics, the Bible is a Catholic Book, there is no salvation outside the Catholic Church and ect and ect.
However lets for sakes say the bible is a Catholic book, the Catholic Church and its members need to then be able to explain scripture in totality. You as a Catholic brought up the verse " You shall not enter untill you pay the last penny" so basically I was just asking…all Saints are human beings who commited sin in one shape or form. IF you can enter paradise unless you pay the last penny then they too need to enter purgatory? Correct?
“Be Perfect like your Heavenly Father is Perfect” Considering no Saint in the history of the Catholic Church is actually Perfect they too need to be cleansed? Correct?
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Dorothy
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We have a Doctor of the Church by the name of St. John of the Cross, and he explains the sanctification process as “going up a mountain”. As a soul progresses “up the mountain” he reaches levels of holiness that are greater and greater. The goal is union with Christ,…that is considered the highest.(the top of the mountain).
At that point the person will be considered as perfect as he/she could be as a human. Whether they need a little bit of cleansing or not…I do not know. In reading the lives of some of the saints it seems that they became so selfless that they could say “It is no longer I that live, but Christ that lives in me.” (That is a quote from St. Paul.)
Interesting that there are three stages considered in one’s sanctification. The first stage is called “the purgative way”, the second “the illuminitive way”, and the third “the unitive way”.
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Dorothy
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Just for the record, the Catholic Church does not teach that others not members of the Church are not saved. That statement means, that if they are saved by cooperating with the grace of God, then it is actually through the Catholic Church that they are saved.
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pablope
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