Why do your suppose that Catholics believe in Purgatory

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My mistake, I have to ask the Catholics again a question to understand this more clearly.

Do Catholics believe there are Saints that avoid the stage of Purgatory at all cost?
Yes. When they have allowed the Lord, by His grace, to empty themselves and be totally filled with Him, (according to the capacity the Lord gave them) then they do not need Purgatory (purification) because they already are filled with Him.
 
My mistake, I have to ask the Catholics again a question to understand this more clearly.

Do Catholics believe there are Saints that avoid the stage of Purgatory at all cost?
What are you asking exactly? “at all costs” seems to indicate a saint has a choice in avoiding things which are unavoidable.
I don’t understand what you are trying to ask.
 
PJM: I’m not saying I don’t believe in an afterlife. I very much believe in an afterlife.There is proof/evidence enough for me in what I’ve experienced in this life to leave me with no doubt there is something after this physical existence. I don’t know what form whatever happens after this life takes nor do I believe that important. This life right now and how I live it is what is important.
I certainly AGREE with your final statement:)

So here’s something to think about * And he said: Let us make man to our image and likeness: and let him have dominion over the fishes of the sea, and the fowls of the air, and the beasts, and the whole earth, and every creeping creature that moveth upon the earth. [27]** And God created man to his own image: to the image of God he created him: male and female he created them**.

John 4:23-24
[23] But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true adorers shall adore the Father in spirit and in truth. For the Father also seeketh such to adore him. [24] God is a spirit; and they that adore him, must adore him in spirit **and in truth. **

So then my friend,

Can these seemingly contradictory passages be reconciled? WHAT happens when we die?

God Bless you

Patrick*
 
If you you may…answer my previous question. Does this not mean that EVERY saved soul has to undergo some sort of purification. You are a Catholic, right? Now do you believe that Saints are perfect beings before they die and enter heaven?

I thought only God is perfect and every other being is imperfect?
If you you may…answer my previous question. Does this not mean that EVERY saved soul has to undergo some sort of purification. You are a Catholic, right? Now do you believe that Saints are perfect beings before they die and enter heaven?
PLEASE see my POST #94

If that does not answer your question please let me know
I thought only God is perfect and every other being is imperfect?
MOSTLY TRUE:
But use this site to look up these passages:

drbo.org/

Luke 23:43
Gen. 5:22-24
2 Kings 2: 8-14

GOD CAN DO ANY GOOD THING

Because “man” in born in sin [Original sin] does NOT mean that man HAS to die in sin.

John 3:5 & John 20:19-23

And As I explained in a prior POST, God makes it possible for man to BECOME perfect in this life. Not without sacrifice. not without suffering in some way, to some degree determined by God

Life is [A] Thee God TEST
Isaiah 43 verses 7 &21

ALMOST:) Here’s what you may have missed

Gen 1: 26-27
26] And he said: Let us make man to our image and likeness: and let him have dominion over the fishes of the sea, and the fowls of the air, and the beasts, and the whole earth, and every creeping creature that moveth upon the earth. [27] And God created man to his own image: to the image of God he created him: male and female he created them.

GBY!

Patrick
 
Thanks for answering my friend.

[1] Now I do know that the Roman Catholic Church believes the early christians were Catholics, t[2]he Bible is a Catholic Book, ]3]there is no salvation outside the Catholic Church and ect and ect.
[4] However lets for sakes say the bible is a Catholic book, the Catholic Church and its members need to then be able to explain scripture in totality. You as a Catholic brought up the verse " You shall not enter untill you pay the last penny" so basically I was just asking…all Saints are human beings who commited sin in one shape or form. IF you can enter paradise unless you pay the last penny then they too need to enter purgatory? Correct?
 
quote Originally Posted by OneBlanketBoss View Post
Thanks for answering my friend.

Now I do know that the Roman Catholic Church believes the early christians were Catholics, the Bible is a Catholic Book, there is no salvation outside the Catholic Church and ect and ect. end quote

[INSERTED BY [ PJM] PLEASE READ MY POST REPLY #99
Just for the record, the Catholic Church does not teach that others not members of the Church are not saved. That statement means, that if they are saved by cooperating with the grace of God, then it is actually through the Catholic Church that they are saved.
GBY

Patrick
 
Thanks for answering my friend.

Now I do know that the Roman Catholic Church believes the early christians were Catholics, the Bible is a Catholic Book, there is no salvation outside the Catholic Church and ect and ect.

However lets for sakes say the bible is a Catholic book, the Catholic Church and its members need to then be able to explain scripture in totality. You as a Catholic brought up the verse " You shall not enter untill you pay the last penny" so basically I was just asking…all Saints are human beings who commited sin in one shape or form. IF you can enter paradise unless you pay the last penny then they too need to enter purgatory? Correct?

“Be Perfect like your Heavenly Father is Perfect” Considering no Saint in the history of the Catholic Church is actually Perfect they too need to be cleansed? Correct?
AS an FYI

You CAN include the POST or any part of it in your reply by putting
at the beginning of what your commenting on
at the end of what your commenting on
This will show up as a highlighted section “quote”
GBY

Patrick
 
Thanks, Michael. Is it possible to know when to stop praying for the person and to know they have finally arrived in heaven or do people keep praying for the person just in case?
NO:)

But NOT to worry; GOD will take all excess praters and good-works and apply them to another Soul in need of them:thumbsup:

GBY
 
Hello PJM,

(“being saved from sin”.) According to the book of Acts what Jesus accomplished was bringing the Holy Ghost into the world which cleanses us from sin. That’s why the big selling point was to receive the HG. The bible verses are king James.
MT 1:21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his 8-9 name
JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins
OK WHAT does this mean in the light of 1 Jn 1: 8-9 & 1 Jn 5:16-17? You can look them up here: drbo.org/
And WHAT my friend do YOU hold thos to mean?.
LK 1:77 To give knowledge of salvation unto his people by the
remission of their sins
And what is GOD"S WAY of accomplishing this?
ACTS 2:40 And with many other words did he testify and exhort,
saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation
What do YOU mean by this?.
There is a relavance to Purgatory and our human lives. Life IS the {A} God test:thumbsup:<<<
from an eariler PJM post
Reincarnation combined with Karma teaches that life is a learning experience as opposed to a test. The difference with regards to relevance to our lives is with purgatory a person observes a “written” code of ethics. In the case of Catholicism it would be attending church, confession, saying the rosary, etc. With reincarnation/karma we view each action in terms of how it will effect our future both during this life and in future lives.
So what my friend is the actual verifiable evidence of Reincarnation?

GBY

Patrick
 
NO:)

But NOT to worry; GOD will take all excess praters and good-works and apply them to another Soul in need of them:thumbsup:

GBY
Hi PJM

I am always afraid to reply to you but I will give it a try again.

I have mainly read all your posts in this thread and I will still need to say I believe that purgatory is totally illogical, but that is not my point, I would like to respond to this specific reply of yours.

To start of, this part of it came to me (and still remains unanswered I feel) a few years ago. I was watching a Youtube video about a Catholic Priest who became Protestant that said his first moment that made him question purgatory/Catholicism was when a lady asked him “how many masses are still needed for her late husband before he would be in heaven?”

But yea, to your specific reply I have 2 questions?

Firstly it sounds like God actually needs Paters or good-works in the first place? Or can God do anything as He pleases?

Secondly, how does this not sound like a point system?

Or is it more in a way that God doesn’t need any Paters or good-works, but we should do them anyway, just in case? Or they do actually help, but are not actually needed?

Regards
 
Hi PJM

I am always afraid to reply to you but I will give it a try again.

I have mainly read all your posts in this thread and I will still need to say I believe that purgatory is totally illogical, but that is not my point, I would like to respond to this specific reply of yours.
Why do you see purgatory as illogical?
 
Why do you see purgatory as illogical?
Hi goout.

I realised after I posted that part that maybe I should not have, as that would divert my actual intention. But anyway, let me give it a shot 🙂

Jesus is God
Jesus was sacrificed for us
Therefore God was sacrificed for us
This was a Divine sacrifice
What can possibly come from us to make this divine sacrifice better or more “valid” or whatever, hope you get my point?

Now, as I said, I have read most of this thread and posters have attempted to answer this, but I feel they failed to explain what would be “missing” from this Divine sacrifice? All I see is a load of “buts” and “excepts” and “ands”. And that’s not even taking the entire “development” into account.

I also think my original questions to your reply would need an answer for a logical understanding. It just seems to come down to a legal argument of “this without that including this but not that part of that” kind of thing that kinda missed the entire point.

But that’s just my thoughts (on this) to overcome if I ever decide to become Catholic.
 
Hi PJM

I am always afraid to reply to you but I will give it a try again.

I have mainly read all your posts in this thread and I will still need to say I believe that purgatory is totally illogical, but that is not my point, I would like to respond to this specific reply of yours.

To start of, this part of it came to me (and still remains unanswered I feel) a few years ago. I was watching a Youtube video about a Catholic Priest who became Protestant that said his first moment that made him question purgatory/Catholicism was when a lady asked him “how many masses are still needed for her late husband before he would be in heaven?”

But yea, to your specific reply I have 2 questions?

Firstly it sounds like God actually needs Paters or good-works in the first place? Or can God do anything as He pleases?

Secondly, how does this not sound like a point system?

Or is it more in a way that God doesn’t need any Paters or good-works, but we should do them anyway, just in case? Or they do actually help, but are not actually needed?

Regards
Christians have always prayer for the faithfully departed. That nothing impure may enter heaven is an axiom. Their prayers help them to remove their attachment to sin and suffrage allows the faithful living to be charitable towards the faithfully departed.
 
Christians have always prayer for the faithfully departed. That nothing impure may enter heaven is an axiom. Their prayers help them to remove their attachment to sin and suffrage allows the faithful living to be charitable towards the faithfully departed.
Thanks Vico

You should understand this general answer doesn’t answer my questions or relates specifically to my statements.

That being said, it is also a VERY general answer that doesn’t relate to the “developed” understanding of purgatory that just makes so many things seem illogical, as I stated (in my opinion).

In the end, your statement seems cool at a glance, but that isn’t my point at all. The problem with " development" would be that now we need to go through every “how many” points to get to an answer (for me) or as I sometimes think maybe it would have been better to leave it VERY general (Sort of as you stated) as the Orthodox.

Just my thoughts.

Regards
 
From *Indulgentarium Doctrina *(1967)
newadvent.org/library/docs_pa06id.htm

It is an imitation of Christ, not that it is necessary, because the merits of Christ are more than sufficient, but this is the family, the Church. This forgiveness is of the temporal nature not forgiveness (absolution) for the guilt of sin: “God’s mercy is thus led to forgiveness, so that sincerely repentant sinners may participate as soon as possible in the full enjoyment of the benefits of the family of God.”

Chapter II
  1. There reigns among men, by the hidden and benign mystery of the divine will, a supernatural solidarity whereby the sin of one harms the others just as the holiness of one also benefits the others.[12] Thus the Christian faithful give each other mutual aid to attain their supernatural aim. A testimony of this solidarity is manifested in Adam himself, whose sin is passed on through propagation to all men. But of this supernatural solidarity the greatest and most perfect principle, foundation and example is Christ Himself to communion with Whom God has called us.[13]
  2. Indeed Christ “committed no sin,” “suffered for us,”[14] “was wounded for our iniquities, bruised for our sins . . . by His bruises we are healed.”[15]
Following in the footsteps of Christ,[16] the Christian faithful have always endeavored to help one another on the path leading to the heavenly Father through prayer, the exchange of spiritual goods and penitential expiation. The more they have been immersed in the fervor of charity, the more they have imitated Christ in His sufferings, carrying their crosses in expiation for their own sins and those of others, certain that they could help their brothers to obtain salvation from God the Father of mercies.[17] This is the very ancient dogma of the Communion of the Saints,[18] whereby the life of each individual son of God in Christ and through Christ is joined by a wonderful link to the life of all his other Christian brothers in the supernatural unity of the Mystical Body of Christ till, as it were, a single mystical person is formed.[19]

Thus is explained the “treasury of the Church”[20] which should certainly not be imagined as the sum total of material goods accumulated in the course of the centuries, but the infinite and inexhaustible value the expiation and the merits of Christ Our Lord have before God, offered as they were so that all of mankind could be set free from sin and attain communion with the Father. It is Christ the Redeemer Himself in whom the satisfactions and merits of His redemption exist and find their force.[21] This treasury also includes the truly immense, unfathomable and ever pristine value before God of the prayers and good works of the Blessed Virgin Mary and all the saints, who following in the footsteps of Christ the Lord and by His grace have sanctified their lives and fulfilled the mission entrusted to them by the Father. Thus while attaining their own salvation, they have also cooperated in the salvation of their brothers in the unity of the Mystical Body.

“For all who are in Christ, having His spirit, form one Church and cleave together in Him” (Eph. 4:16). Therefore the union of the wayfarers with the brethren who have gone to sleep in the peace of Christ is not in the least weakened or interrupted, but on the contrary, according to the perpetual faith of the Church, is strengthened by a communication of spiritual goods. For by reason of the fact that those in heaven are more closely united with Christ, they establish the whole Church more firmly in holiness, lend nobility to the worship which the Church offers to God here on earth and in many ways contribute to building it up evermore (I Cor. 12: 12-27). For after they have been received into their heavenly home and are present to the Lord (11 Cor. 5:8), through Him and with Him and in Him they do not cease to intervene with the Father for us, showing forth the merits which they have won on earth through the one Mediator between God and man, Jesus Christ (I Tim. 2:5), by serving God in all things and filling up in their flesh those things which are lacking of the sufferings of Christ for His Body which is the Church (Col. 1:24). Thus by their brotherly interest our weakness is greatly strengthened.[22]

For this reason there certainly exists between the faithful who have already reached their heavenly home, those who are expiating their sins in purgatory and those who are still pilgrims on earth a perennial link of charity and an abundant exchange of all the goods by which, with the expiation of all the sins of the entire Mystical Body, divine justice is placated. God’s mercy is thus led to forgiveness, so that sincerely repentant sinners may participate as soon as possible in the full enjoyment of the benefits of the family of God.
 
Two thoughts on the question of purgatory. First, man was created in the image and likeness of God. Straight from Genesis. God loves all men and desires all to return to Him. Man however, ruptured that relationship through an act of disobedience and can only return to God in a state of pure love, devoid of any sin and the stain of it. Some are capable of it. The martyrs, for example, who gave their lives for God. Also, when I was growing up I remember being told that Christ said, "greater love than this no man has then he lay his life down for a friend. So I ask the question, does a person, say a soldier for instance, who gives his life for his buddies by covering an explosive with his own body, qualify? And if he does, does his love for his buddies show a love that is so rich and magnificent to God, that there is no need for a final purification? That soldier wasn’t perfect, but his final action brought him back to the state of perfect love in which we were originally created,that negates any further need for purification.

And if that is true, since most of us don’t reach this perfection of love in our lifetimes, and since God loves man so much that he desires all to be saved, doesn’t it stand to reason that there has to be some vehicle for God to remove those final vestiges of sin that would prohibit us from entering that kingdom where nothing impure can exist. Hence, a purging “fire”,- purgatory.

The second idea for me comes from an act performed by Christ himself; one that possibly prefigured purgatory for us all. At the Last Supper, before he consecrated the Eucharist, he took a basin of water and a towel, and washed the feet of His apostles. Washing the feet was an act of hospitality that cleansed the “taint” of the environment off the feet of the guest. Could this be a foreshadowing of purgatory (and infant baptism also)? That to be clean and worthy of inclusion in the house, a servant would wash the feet of the guest. When we arrive at the kingdom, without sin that prevents us from entering but still tainted by an environment of sin, does Jesus himself, (remember the quote, "I came to serve, not to be served?) wash the taint away. Does He purge the final vestiges of sin (unresolved grievances, sins of omission, things like that) from our souls so that we can become pure enough to stand before God’s throne?

Just a thought. It may not line up with the idea of a place or fire and an atmosphere of suffering for the residue of our sins, but it helps me understand better the richness behind the doctrine.
 
Two thoughts on the question of purgatory. First, man was created in the image and likeness of God. Straight from Genesis. God loves all men and desires all to return to Him. Man however, ruptured that relationship through an act of disobedience and can only return to God in a state of pure love, devoid of any sin and the stain of it. Some are capable of it. The martyrs, for example, who gave their lives for God. Also, when I was growing up I remember being told that Christ said, "greater love than this no man has then he lay his life down for a friend. So I ask the question, does a person, say a soldier for instance, who gives his life for his buddies by covering an explosive with his own body, qualify? And if he does, does his love for his buddies show a love that is so rich and magnificent to God, that there is no need for a final purification? That soldier wasn’t perfect, but his final action brought him back to the state of perfect love in which we were originally created,that negates any further need for purificationAnd if that is true, since most of us don’t reach this perfection of love in our lifetimes, and since God loves man so much that he desires all to be saved, doesn’t it stand to reason that there has to be some vehicle for God to remove those final vestiges of sin that would prohibit us from entering that kingdom where nothing impure can exist. Hence, a purging “fire”,- purgatory.
The second idea for me comes from an act performed by Christ himself; one that possibly prefigured purgatory for us all. At the Last Supper, before he consecrated the Eucharist, he took a basin of water and a towel, and washed the feet of His apostles. Washing the feet was an act of hospitality that cleansed the “taint” of the environment off the feet of the guest. Could this be a foreshadowing of purgatory (and infant baptism also)? That to be clean and worthy of inclusion in the house, a servant would wash the feet of the guest. When we arrive at the kingdom, without sin that prevents us from entering but still tainted by an environment of sin, does Jesus himself, (remember the quote, "I came to serve, not to be served?) wash the taint away. Does He purge the final vestiges of sin (unresolved grievances, sins of omission, things like that) from our souls so that we can become pure enough to stand before God’s throne?

Just a thought. It may not line up with the idea of a place or fire and an atmosphere of suffering for the residue of our sins, but it helps me understand better the richness behind the doctrine.
I think you could have a point there. It seems very close to me. I will bring this up to some of my more educated brothers and sisters and see what they have to say

I like it!!!🙂
 
Hi goout.

I realised after I posted that part that maybe I should not have, as that would divert my actual intention. But anyway, let me give it a shot 🙂

Jesus is God
Jesus was sacrificed for us
Therefore God was sacrificed for us
This was a Divine sacrifice
What can possibly come from us to make this divine sacrifice better or more “valid” or whatever, hope you get my point?

Now, as I said, I have read most of this thread and posters have attempted to answer this, but I feel they failed to explain what would be “missing” from this Divine sacrifice? All I see is a load of “buts” and “excepts” and “ands”. And that’s not even taking the entire “development” into account.
Salvation is not forced on us. Yes it cannot be effected without Christ’s saving action and grace. What might be lacking is our full response. That response is “faith”. Faith is God’s grace working in me to which I respond.
Christianity is about unity with God. Through the response of faith God’s grace sanctifies us. This is not an automatic thing, as if we were rats in a lab subject to an experimentor. In purgatory we are sanctified in the fire of God’s love.

Christianity is about the development of relationship, not just sterile events and doctrines.(look at the Trinity: perfect relationship)
 
Hi goout.

I realised after I posted that part that maybe I should not have, as that would divert my actual intention. But anyway, let me give it a shot 🙂

Jesus is God
Jesus was sacrificed for us
Therefore God was sacrificed for us
This was a Divine sacrifice
What can possibly come from us to make this divine sacrifice better or more “valid” or whatever, hope you get my point?
I’m thinking the only thing that could be lacking in Jesus’ sacrifice is our humble and loving cooperation with his sacrifice by picking up the cross of sacrifice in our own lives and offering it with his…??? Jesus is the one who said “he who loves me should pick up his cross and follow me”…???
 
I’m thinking the only thing that could be lacking in Jesus’ sacrifice is our humble and loving cooperation with his sacrifice by picking up the cross of sacrifice in our own lives and offering it with his…??? Jesus is the one who said “he who loves me should pick up his cross and follow me”…???
👍

Jesus has accomplished the gift. We are not saying that Christ’s sacrifice is deficient at all. We are saying that our response is required for salvation.
God can do anything, but does nothing by force, only by love.
 
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