Why does America always have an "enemy?"

[Ridgerunner]

Not if the question is absurd. How could anyone imagine re-installing Saddam or re-writing history? Would I be responsible for the atrocities that Saddam may have committed had he stayed in power? He may have died meanwhile for all you know.

However, asking the question if there were any logical or practical reason for Gulf War II is not absurd. If such expenditure of lives and capital has been made, where are the benefits? Also, preemptive war is forbidden under the Geneva Convention so the reason better be really good. The truth is that the beating of war drums soon after 9/11 blinded everyone as to any rational course of action, except for the war machine that turned a huge profit.

The result has been unstabilizing the Middle East like a row of dominoes and opening a Pandora’s Box of devils that were chained in place by the resident dictators. If anything Iraq and Iran could have continued to slug it out between one and nother and not a drop of American blood needed to be wasted.

Again, no answer. One cannot logically attack Bush for the second phase of the Gulf War without wishing it hadn’t happened. In that event, Saddam Hussein would have remained in power if he could. If he died, his place would have been taken by his murderous sons, or whichever of the two killed the other; probably Qusay.

ISIS hasn’t even begun to kill a million people like Saddam Hussein did. It’s far weaker than he was. Saddam started two wars, gassed people in one of them, gassed his own people as well, and somehow peace in Iraq was worse?

And there was peace after the surge. Even Al Quaeda admitted it was beaten and called off its participation. The Shiite radicals were quiescent, with their leader hiding in Iran. Obama cut and ran, even though he was told by the military, by the intelligence community, by the Kurds, the Sunni and the Shia that AQ would come surging back and that Iraq would be a battleground between it an Iran.

And so it has happened. The mess in Iraq at present is not the fault of G.W. Bush. It’s Barack Obama’s fault, 100% and entire. Democrats, of course, won’t admit that their guy could have prevented the current genocides, beheadings and the “Iraqi forces” being Iranian auxiliaries, but didn’t.

Like Obama himself, they were and still are, so anxious to heap scorn on G. W. Bush that even when Obama’s own CIA chief says this administration shouldn’t have run from Iraq, they won’t accept it even though they probably know it.

 

[PolarGuy]

I agree with ridgerunner. Well said.

 

[TheHolyTrinity]

OP Question: Why does America always have an “enemy?”

Answer: Without an enemy there is no unity.

 

[PolarGuy]

Why does america always have an enemy?

Because there are always 2 groups: the top dog, and the dogs who want to be top dog!

 

[JimG]

For the same reason any other nation has an enemy. Nations don’t always get along, and quite often their interests conflict. And sometimes, it’s best to deal with enemies earlier rather than later.

 

[zamyrabyrd]

Again, no answer. One cannot logically attack Bush for the second phase of the Gulf War without wishing it hadn’t happened. In that event, Saddam Hussein would have remained in power if he could. If he died, his place would have been taken by his murderous sons, or whichever of the two killed the other; probably Qusay.

Because there is no answer to such a stupid question: “Would you re-install Saddam if you could, thus undoing Bush’s action and that of the U.S. Congress?” The US is NOT the world’s policeman. If it wants to take down dictators, Kim Jong-un has already declared itself an enemy of the US. What Saddam and his sons might have done still is not the business of the US. If you are saying that things are better than if Saddam had stayed on, you are probably dead wrong. Probably a half a million Iraqis would still be alive and their lands unpolluted with spent uranium. The latter in itself is a war crime according to the Geneva Convention.

ISIS hasn’t even begun to kill a million people like Saddam Hussein did. It’s far weaker than he was. Saddam started two wars, gassed people in one of them, gassed his own people as well, and somehow peace in Iraq was worse?

You call that "peace’? That’s really swallowing the stupid bromides of "freedom and peace"as excuses for destabilizing an entire country while poisoning them besides. No ISIS hasn’t killed a million yet, but give them time and they will surprise everyone how many they can get rid of. As estimated by the Government of Iraq and the Kurdistan Regional Government (KRG), some 1.8 million people were displaced by insecurity in Iraq by September 2014.

The mess in Iraq at present is not the fault of G.W. Bush. It’s Barack Obama’s fault, 100% and entire. Democrats, of course, won’t admit that their guy could have prevented the current genocides, beheadings and the “Iraqi forces” being Iranian auxiliaries, but didn’t.

*Not his fault, not his fault? *He STARTED the whole process without a thought how to maintain it or how it would end. The US were supposed to stay there forever? It is difficult to discuss anything with you since you are very dogmatic and depict things in black and white. You concoct a straw man argument like it were some absolute: would you unravel the (dubious) achievements of Bush & Co? Sorry, I will not take that kind of bait.

Like Obama himself, they were and still are, so anxious to heap scorn on G. W. Bush that even when Obama’s own CIA chief says this administration shouldn’t have run from Iraq, they won’t accept it even though they probably know it.

Scorn is not what GW Bush merits, he deserves to be indicted for fraud and war crimes. But his family has been getting away with war profiteering for generations. I get the impression not only from you that if a conservative one has to be a war monger and everything that goes with it. Well, I don’t believe in nor accept a package of values unless it is from the Church.

 

[PolarGuy]

Using inflammatory terms like calling a question stupid only make you look small and unable to reason…

…but anyone who says bush was worse than hitler or Stalin (and you did say that!) clearly can’t reason anyway.

Finally, to put paid to the illogical concept that bush was somehow wrong to “start a war be didn’t know how to finish,” by that logic we shouldn’t have declared war on Germany or Japan in 1941 - after all, we didn’t know how that was going to turn out!

Bu please keep posting, zamy - you’re doing a great job for my side!

 

[zamyrabyrd]

Using inflammatory terms like calling a question stupid only make you look small and unable to reason…

Not if it is a loaded question intended as bait. It is one thing to call a question stupid (which it is) and get personal like you and say “I look small and unable to reason”.

…but anyone who says bush was worse than hitler or Stalin (and you did say that!) clearly can’t reason anyway.

At least Hitler and Stalin were able to be stopped and the their effect was finite. Bush in his reckless stupidity unleashed the demons that will probably lead to a nuclear war. He already poisoned large swaths of Iraq with depleted uranium which is far from depleting, say in a million years or so. The first two dictators didn’t leave such a nuclear footprint.

Finally, to put paid to the illogical concept that bush was somehow wrong to “start a war be didn’t know how to finish,” by that logic we shouldn’t have declared war on Germany or Japan in 1941 - after all, we didn’t know how that was going to turn out!

There was a clear objective in World War II, stop the aggressors and once that was done, GET OUT! The likelihood for winning was quite high. I don’t know why you have such a case against me and what I say but you can dispense with the put downs and insults.

 

[PolarGuy]

I’m guilty of insults? Gee, you’re the one calling things stupid, and you’re the one who is doubling down on a US president being worse than hitler or Stalin…

…As if you have any concept of the enormity of the evil those 2 men wreaked on the world.

I’m not putting you down. You’ve managed to do that fine by yourself.

Pearls before swine. Bye.

 

[zamyrabyrd]

I’m guilty of insults? Gee, you’re the one calling things stupid, and you’re the one who is doubling down on a US president being worse than hitler or Stalin…As if you have any concept of the enormity of the evil those 2 men wreaked on the world.

Who are you Bush’s PR agent? Why don’t you read about his illustrious lineage, his great grandfather profiteering off WWI and his gramps dealing with Nazi banks? I do know however, that Hitler and Stalin did not operate in a void and as a matter of fact, Prescott Bush was in a political bed with him!

I’m not putting you down. You’ve managed to do that fine by yourself. Pearls before swine. Bye.

You said “bye” before and came back a few more times. Show you are a man of your word and git!

 

[PolarGuy]

Git? Gee, that’s awfully unwelcoming.

Plus why should I leave for good, when I’m having so much fun with someone who keeps defending hitler and Stalin?

Bush’s PR agent? Well, he’s a man who loves his county; a devout Christian; and fought against people who tried to kill us.

Hitler and Stalin? They killed between them 30 million people, and you’re impliedly defending them.

I also note that you’re now attacking a man based on things you allege his grandfather did. If that’s “reasoning,” I really don’t see you having anything constructive to offer.

 

[estesbob]

Git? Gee, that’s awfully unwelcoming.

Plus why should I leave for good, when I’m having so much fun with someone who keeps defending hitler and Stalin?

Bush’s PR agent? Well, he’s a man who loves his county; a devout Christian; and fought against people who tried to kill us.

Hitler and Stalin? They killed between them 30 million people, and you’re impliedly defending them.

I also note that you’re now attacking a man based on things you allege his grandfather did. If that’s “reasoning,” I really don’t see you having anything constructive to offer.

If you don’t feed them they will go away

 

[zamyrabyrd]

Git? Gee, that’s awfully unwelcoming.

Plus why should I leave for good, when I’m having so much fun with someone who keeps defending hitler and Stalin? Bush’s PR agent? Well, he’s a man who loves his county; a devout Christian; and fought against people who tried to kill us.

Hitler and Stalin? They killed between them 30 million people, and you’re impliedly defending them. I also note that you’re now attacking a man based on things you allege his grandfather did. If that’s “reasoning,” I really don’t see you having anything constructive to offer.

I was NEVER defending Hitler or Stalin. That is an untrue allegation.
Fought against people who tried to kill us? First of all he evaded active service himself, after large sums were spent on his flight training. (Clinton was also a draft dodger.)
Please understand that preemptive wars are AGAINST the Geneva Convention. Even so, Iraq posed no clear and future danger to the US. They did NOT participate in 9/11.
Bush, a good Christian? As much as George Tiller was or Edward Kennedy. It’s interesting to consider to what extent people think they can fool God as long as they hoodwink others. A conservative estimate of the casualties of Gulf War II were a half million DEAD including around 4,500 servicemen. For what? To enrich Halliburton and the war munitions? Bringing up the family tradition of war profiteering is VERY pertinent.

 

[PolarGuy]

Zamy, you called Bush worse than hitler or Stalin. You said it; now be a man and own it.

Hitler & Stalin? 30 million dead. George bush? 4500 military casualties and a fabricated “half million dead” that you provide no citation for. 30 million is somehow worse?

Also, am I allowed to insult you if your grandfather was a bad guy? Because that’s the extent of your logic.

Finally, Bush did in fact serve in the military…or does national guard not count?

And last: be real careful about EVER saying ANYONE is a bad Christian…

…and yet you did that too.

If this were baseball you’d have lost 12-zip. That I could take. But please consider that the whole “bush is worse than hitler” frothing makes Catholics look REALLY foolish to lurkers.

 

[PolarGuy]

I’m sorry, I’m still hung up on the concept that it’s allowable to trash/insult/condemn someone if I think his grandfather was a bad guy.

 

[zamyrabyrd]

Zamy, you called Bush worse than hitler or Stalin. You said it; now be a man and own it. Hitler & Stalin? 30 million dead. George bush? 4500 military casualties and a fabricated “half million dead” that you provide no citation for. 30 million is somehow worse?

Also, am I allowed to insult you if your grandfather was a bad guy? Because that’s the extent of your logic. Finally, Bush did in fact serve in the military…or does national guard not count? And last: be real careful about EVER saying ANYONE is a bad Christian…
…and yet you did that too.

If this were baseball you’d have lost 12-zip. That I could take. But please consider that the whole “bush is worse than hitler” frothing makes Catholics look REALLY foolish to lurkers.

It’s curious how emotional you are getting trying desperately to prove me wrong and doing a premature victory dance over NOTHING. I did not say that GW Bush is a bad Christian but compared him to others in name only. American soldiers also were poisoned by the uranium downwind without the proper gear (if it even exists). Read the open letter of Tomas Young whose life and that of his family was ruined in Iraq. democracynow.org/2013/3/21/exclusive_dying_iraq_war_veteran_tomas_young
“I write this letter on the 10th anniversary of the Iraq War on behalf of my fellow Iraq veterans. I write this letter on behalf of the 4,488 soldiers and Marines who died in Iraq. I write this letter on behalf of the hundreds of thousands of veterans who have been wounded and on behalf of [those who bear those wounds. I am one of those.] I [am] one of the gravely injured. I am paralyzed in an insurgent ambush in 2004 in Sadr City. My life is coming to an end. I am living under hospice care.

“I write this letter on behalf of husbands and wives who have lost spouses, on behalf of children who have lost parents, on behalf of the fathers and mothers who have lost sons and daughters and on behalf of those who care for the many thousands of my fellow veterans who have brain injuries. I write this letter on behalf of those veterans whose trauma and self-revulsion for what they have [done, witnessed, endured] in Iraq have led to suicide and on behalf of the active-duty soldiers and Marines who commit, on average, a suicide a day. I write this letter on behalf of the some 1 million Iraqi dead and on behalf of the countless Iraqi wounded. I write this letter on behalf of us all—the human detritus your war has left behind, those who will spend their lives in unending pain and grief."

This is NOT a game. Being the catalyst for WWIII is not a joke. We ALL lose.

 

[PolarGuy]

Emotional? Heck, I’m positively entertained!

Quoting one letter from a disabled veteran - particular one clearly under emotional crisis/distress - is not proof of anything.

I’m still hung up on “bush is worse than hitler and Stalin” and “it’s allowable to insult someone if his grandpa was bad.”

So how about it: if someone’s grandfather is bad, am I allowed to insult/condemn them?

 

[zamyrabyrd]

Emotional? Heck, I’m positively entertained!
Quoting one letter from a disabled veteran - particular one clearly under emotional crisis/distress - is not proof of anything.
I’m still hung up on “bush is worse than hitler and Stalin” and “it’s allowable to insult someone if his grandpa was bad.”
So how about it: if someone’s grandfather is bad, am I allowed to insult/condemn them?

I shouldn’t answer you if you think people’s sufferings are a joke, but this is not for you, it is for anyone who is following the thread. You said you were going anyway, so as far as I am concerned, you are not here.
Someone brought up in a crime family is more likely to become a crook because it is the baseline natural behavior. It is very difficult not to do what everyone else is doing because if you try to be different you are beaten down to conform to the rest. John and Robert Kennedy were exceptions to their creepy family. They broke the mold as it were but in the end were brought down (not by their own but the leveling process of dirty politics of which George Walked most probably had something to do with).
Similarly, those who are blessed with good stable families have an easier time continuing in that tradition.

 

[Mickey_Finn]

It’s as if we’re always one small step from happiness. Take for example the British, Germany, Japan, the Soviet Union and now ISIS and other radical Muslims. Excuse me, but I’m a bit suspicious. Conflicts sets a nation to be ill at ease, and results in motivation that has been lifting us out of “depression.” War carries along with it a boom that has elevated us, and the world at large. Anybody ever think about the psychology of war? Do wars have a hidden purpose? Think again where our world would be without them.

Well, nations don’t have friends or enemies technically. They have interests.

But, while we do benefit from some advances brought about by warfare. There is no arguing that these conflicts halt much of our progress. As an example, if we had allowed the Germans to defeat the Soviets, (and the rest of Europe for that matter). We would not have been saddled with that very expensive, not to mention boring cold war. But that would have been kind of American-centric.

ATB

 

[PolarGuy]

Zamy, why can’t you just answer this question:

Is it acceptable to condemn/insult someone because you don’t like things their grandfather did?

Please answer substantively.