Why does anyone knowingly and willingly reject God?

[GLam8833]

Quote: (From Chefmomster2)
“Absolutely! I firmly believe that the lack of high-quality catechesis over the past 35 years has pretty much left people adrift. Most aren’t at all clear about what they are asked to do by the Church and how much is truly “required”. They are much more at a loss to explain how the Church formulated its doctrines and why we should follow them. We can’t move from an external and shallow understanding of God to an intimate, deep relationship if we don’t learn these things.”

You see, THIS generation of Catholics will be held culpable for their
refusal to follow the Magisterium, because the Church’s teachings can
be found out at their fingertips!

No one today can feign IGNORANCE about the rightness or wrongness of
their behaviour, because they have NO EXCUSE.

Jesus Himself said: "“If I had not some and spoken to them, they would not
have sin, but now they have no excuse for their sin” John 15:22

and “The word that I have spoken will serve as judge” John 12:48

That’s the Word of Truth that Jesus has given the Catholic Church,
the PILLAR AND SUPPORT of the Truth. 1 Tim 3:15

 

[chefmomster2]

OneSheep,

As much as I have enjoyed our discussion I think we’ve hit an impasse.

The man has reconciled with God and his wife and they have left on a second honeymoon cruise to the Bahamas. :hug1:

The young shoplifter has been released from juvenile detention and has turned over a new leaf. :nun1:

And Oliver North is consulting on Fox News. :frighten:

Thank you! :tiphat:
Chef

 

[DanAl]

The point is that in choosing any good I am implicitly choosing God.

“In knowing anything, I implicitly affirm God…In loving anything, I implicilty love God.” - St. Thomas Aquinas

I like how you, as an skeptic, assume the authority of Aquinas to make a point…or is it just a bit of sophistry to use Aquinas to stump Catholics whom you might think assume Aquinas as “the” authority?

Do you think the quote you cited is right? And if yes, why?

If you don’t answer the question some of us will assume that you use Aquinas just for debate purposes, you know, not to seek the truth, but to “win” discussions. That would be very pathetic, though. Hopefully I am wrong.

Anyway, It is obvious nonsense that we “implicitly” seek God when rejecting God. Seriously, how could it be even be possible? It’s like Ted Bundy saying that he implicitly loves women while murdering them.

And of course, there’s the little problem as to why we must assume our *intellectual *inclination towards final causes is more fundamental than free-will. can you help us here?

 

[esieffe]

Just a guess, but anger and bitterness? If there is a situation, especially, one of our own making, we sometimes lash out. Often we lash out at the very one’s that care for us the most.

 

[OneSheep]

OneSheep,

As much as I have enjoyed our discussion I think we’ve hit an impasse.

The man has reconciled with God and his wife and they have left on a second honeymoon cruise to the Bahamas. :hug1:

But the man goes without understanding why he sinned! And in doing so, he is prone to repeat. Please, chef, we have not hit an impasse. I will help. Here is where the impasse occurs:

Man: I have searched my recollections, but there is nothing further that I can think of. I was attracted to her. But I had been fighting that for months. I told myself that it was wrong to continue to see her, even at work. But my pride tempted me. I could be friends without getting more involved. I could keep it under control.** Pride tempted me to believe my own words. **

OneSheep: What were those words that “pride” tempted you to believe?

Man: (?)

I just wrote a long sermon to the man, and then I realized that the man may have already given me the words he was referring to! Let me answer for the man on this round, and you can correct me if I am wrong.

Man: The words were “I could be friends without getting more involved. I could keep it under control.”

OneSheep: Well, perhaps you were right! Nothing in Catholic doctrine says that we cannot keep it under control, and nothing says that we cannot avoid temptation. Plenty of people in the world have to work and interact with people they are attracted to while they are married or unmarried, and avoid committing adultery. It was not this statement, not this thinking, that caused your sin, though it certainly did not help! You chose to commit adultery; that is much different than giving in to thinking that you can avoid temptation. We can avoid temptation. What you did was more than give in to the “temptation to remain friends”, what you did was actively pursue! You were not forced to commit adultery!

You did not keep it under control. You are a committed Catholic; something was going through your “reasoned” mind when you finally made the choice to actively pursue, to commit adultery.

What was you mind saying at the moment of pursuit? Can you respond for yourself, or are you ir"respond"able? If you are irresponsible, then would you like me to give you some options to choose from?

Man: (?)

The young shoplifter has been released from juvenile detention and has turned over a new leaf. :nun1:

Oh, and now we can all forgive her, because she has repented. She has jumped through the hoop, the hoop that our conscience creates in order to keep our own behaviors in check. In addition, we can also love and accept her and others because all have this “potential” to turn around.

The big challenge, though, is forgiving the unrepentant, even those who may never choose to turn around. And will she ever forgive herself for her past sins? Yes, she can, it involves finding out why she did what she did, discovering her ignorance, her blindness, and something more, a “something” that we may discover with the man, if we keep going.

And Oliver North is consulting on Fox News. :frighten:

Actually, I resented Col. North, but I forgave him long ago. I could have done what he did given the way he saw the situation and the limits of his own thinking. He meant well, as we all do when we sin. (Sorry, I gave into the temptation to slip that in.)

Thank you! :tiphat:
Chef

Oof. That sounds like “goodbye”.. I have been thinking lately that this thread is probably one of the best, if not the best, I have contributed to, and it is because neither one of us has condemned the other for our stances, and it would be a big shame to stop now, because we have not come to the point of reaching a conclusion. I may still be incorrect on this chefmom! Maybe the man did “know what he was doing”, but we have not finished the investigation.

Please, don’t let me “win” by forfeit. If we carry this through to the end, and I have always found an end, then there is much more to be gained than any win or loss.

 

[OneSheep]

No one today can feign IGNORANCE about the rightness or wrongness of
their behaviour, because they have NO EXCUSE.

Jesus Himself said: "“If I had not some and spoken to them, they would not
have sin, but now they have no excuse for their sin” John 15:22

I want to thank you for bringing this into the discussion. Let us look at the verse in its context:

John 15:18-25

New International Version (NIV)
The World Hates the Disciples

18 “If the world hates you, keep in mind that it hated me first. 19 If you belonged to the world, it would love you as its own. As it is, you do not belong to the world, but I have chosen you out of the world. That is why the world hates you. 20 Remember what I told you: ‘A servant is not greater than his master.’[a] If they persecuted me, they will persecute you also. If they obeyed my teaching, they will obey yours also. 21 They will treat you this way because of my name, for they do not know the one who sent me. 22 If I had not come and spoken to them, they would not be guilty of sin; but now they have no excuse for their sin. 23 Whoever hates me hates my Father as well. 24 If I had not done among them the works no one else did, they would not be guilty of sin. As it is, they have seen, and yet they have hated both me and my Father. 25 But this is to fulfill what is written in their Law: ‘They hated me without reason.

At first glance, Jesus self-contradicts. If they hated without reason, then that would be reason for the hate, that they are ignorant or blind, “they do not know the one who sent me.” But then He says “as it is, they have seen”, which means that they are neither blind nor ignorant.

On the other hand, I remember that Jesus is “true man”. What is it that we are thinking when we condemn another for persecuting us, when we are obviously (in our own eyes) innocent? We are thinking, “he persecutes for no reason”. When we hang onto this statement, a statement from our conscience, then we sustain a feeling of negativity, condemnation, towards our persecutor.

However, sustaining such thought contradicts the call to forgive, forgiveness which can take place in the process of prayer and understanding, in the process of seeing that people do not know what they are doing when they sin. Does Jesus contradict his own call to forgive?

Well, maybe not. I think the point of the verse is to condemn the behavior of the persecutors. They are wrong in what they do, and their behavior is inexcusable in terms of escaping voiced non-acceptance. As humans, our consciences understandably condemn the persecutors.

The point of this thread is not whether the behaviors are excusable, the point is whether anyone ever knowingly rejects, and Jesus makes the point, “they do not know the one who sent me.”

I fail to clear up the apparent contradictions. Was something lost in the translation? I do not know.

 

[simpleas]

It really, really depends on what they have been taught about God, Simpleas. Were they taught that God wants people to suffer, to never have fun? Was their experience of God only being forced to go to a big building every Sunday and having to endure extreme boredom? Are they told a lot of rules and the rules are God and all about God, and the rules are just “there because God said so”? There is a lot to know about God, and there are a lot of things I can say or do as a parent that give a very wrong impression of our creator. So, what are they rejecting? Are they rejecting God, or are they rejecting a false image? If they are rejecting a false image, they are not rejecting God. To me, people only reject false images, they do so in ignorance or blindness.

If they knew that God’s presence was in those things, then they would know that as they worship, they are simultaneously giving thanks to God. How can a person place something above God if they don’t believe in God in the first place? And if God is all about a bunch of moralizing people forcing their way into other’s freedom for no real bona fide reason(a common misconception) then what are they rejecting? A false image. We have to start with the right image. First, God is our Daddy, He loves us, He forgives us, He loves us no matter what, He gave us everything we have.

Well, let’s try an example then, shall we? Can you think of a scenario of a person knowingly and willingly rejecting God, yet has already found God? Describe the situation, and we can investigate. If you are thinking of a specific friend or acquaintance, describe it. Thanks!

Yes I agree if a person has been given an image of God from others and don’t find a way early on in life to feel a connection to God for themselves they could generate a false image of an unloving, demanding God etc. I suppose I’m thinking of people that could be brought up knowing a loving God, but can fall into, say, black magick, for numerous reasons, they could be knowlingly and willingly rejecting God…But they once believed in the one God, but became involved with other ways…

I think people do believe in a God, many not in the way catholics do though.

I can’t think of anyone I know or not that has K&W rejected God. This is what I meant about people who never think of God much or at all until something happens that prompts that sort of thinking. If they never had a good start/image to begin with then they could never K&W reject God.
I always think of it that people brought up in our faith don’t reject God, but some of the teachings, but we can’t separate the two.
My own relatives, some practise the faith, some partially, and some left it behind once they left school. All still good people in my eyes, I respect their decisions, just as they respect mine

To me we are all still very good people.

 

[OneSheep]

Yes I agree if a person has been given an image of God from others and don’t find a way early on in life to feel a connection to God for themselves they could generate a false image of an unloving, demanding God etc. I suppose I’m thinking of people that could be brought up knowing a loving God, but can fall into, say, black magick, for numerous reasons, they could be knowlingly and willingly rejecting God…But they once believed in the one God, but became involved with other ways…

I think people do believe in a God, many not in the way catholics do though.

I can’t think of anyone I know or not that has K&W rejected God. This is what I meant about people who never think of God much or at all until something happens that prompts that sort of thinking. If they never had a good start/image to begin with then they could never K&W reject God.
I always think of it that people brought up in our faith don’t reject God, but some of the teachings, but we can’t separate the two.
My own relatives, some practise the faith, some partially, and some left it behind once they left school. All still good people in my eyes, I respect their decisions, just as they respect mine

To me we are all still very good people.

Yes, still very good people.

And the draw of black magic, or something like that? The draw is the connection to power of some kind, to gain a feeling of control. Christianity has a big turnaround on that, it is “whoever loses his life, saves it”. It is control by letting go of control. It is dedication of one’s life to love and serve, a life commitment.

“Believing in God” is a bit overrated. To me, one only experiences what it means to be in relationship with God when one dedicates his or her life in this way, and has some kind of prayer relationship. A person is “born again” in relationship with God, celebrated the sacrament of confirmation in a meaningful way! Would a person who dedicates his or her life in this way and has an inclusive prayer life, really knowing God at a deeper level, turn to Black Magic? Why? What would they want that they do not already have, in fact what would they want at all when they can say, “The Lord is my shepherd, I shall not want.”? All of this is part of “knowing”.

Many people do not know God, simpleas, they are not in relationship. Evangelization is very important in creating the kingdom. Do you see what I am saying? We are so many dumb sheep, me included. I am so ignorant, I have so much yet to learn about our Creator.

 

[simpleas]

Yes, still very good people.

And the draw of black magic, or something like that? The draw is the connection to power of some kind, to gain a feeling of control. Christianity has a big turnaround on that, it is “whoever loses his life, saves it”. It is control by letting go of control. It is dedication of one’s life to love and serve, a life commitment.

“Believing in God” is a bit overrated. To me, one only experiences what it means to be in relationship with God when one dedicates his or her life in this way, and has some kind of prayer relationship. A person is “born again” in relationship with God, celebrated the sacrament of confirmation in a meaningful way! Would a person who dedicates his or her life in this way and has an inclusive prayer life, really knowing God at a deeper level, turn to Black Magic? Why? What would they want that they do not already have, in fact what would they want at all when they can say, “The Lord is my shepherd, I shall not want.”? All of this is part of “knowing”.

Many people do not know God, simpleas, they are not in relationship. Evangelization is very important in creating the kingdom. Do you see what I am saying? We are so many dumb sheep, me included. I am so ignorant, I have so much yet to learn about our Creator.

Could be a feeling of control, or of being controlled. Do people who are attracted to these things after being told of a loving God realise they are turning their back on Gods love…probably not at that time.

If a person can knowingly and willingly LOVE God, it seems possible they could do the opposite. To me it all depends of life experience (which I think we agree on?) I think I know God, you think you know God, and anyone reading this thread thinks they know God, or aleast we are all seeking God, cos i’m not 100% sure we ever know God fully on earth.
We all base our belief on what someone else has told us to think of God. I can only ever remember being told of a loving God, one I did need to ask forgiveness from, but that he still loves no matter what.

You work along side children who make their confirmation don’t you? So you’d know more than I what todays children learn and understand about what the sacrament means to them. I was 11 when I made mine, I remember it being a very special evening, very proud of my sponser, and excited to see the bishop, but even better was I was receiving the power of the holy spirit, who would guide and protect me all the days of my life

So does the church need to alter some of the teaches? I learnt of a loving God, yes I heard about hell, but that was something the older generation believed in, yes as I saw Adam and Eve were from a long ago time and that what they did, had nothing to do with me, lol.

 

[OneSheep]

Could be a feeling of control, or of being controlled. Do people who are attracted to these things after being told of a loving God realise they are turning their back on Gods love…probably not at that time.

Well, the source of power is God. So, if a person is seeking power, it is power that can only comes from God. If they are seeking power and thinking “I am turning from God” they are mistaken. In some ways, when we turn from God, there is God where we turn.

If a person can knowingly and willingly LOVE God, it seems possible they could do the opposite. To me it all depends of life experience (which I think we agree on?) I think I know God, you think you know God, and anyone reading this thread thinks they know God, or aleast we are all seeking God, cos i’m not 100% sure we ever know God fully on earth.
We all base our belief on what someone else has told us to think of God. I can only ever remember being told of a loving God, one I did need to ask forgiveness from, but that he still loves no matter what.

To me, the repentance part is more in important than the “need to ask forgiveness part”. But when we see that we need to ask forgiveness, it is all part of the repentance process. We will want to ask forgiveness when we realize our error. God, as I know Him, has already forgiven. God, as I know Him, does not hold it against us in the first place.

The way I look at it, since God knew all that would happen before He created us, my own anthropomorphic view sees that He must have shuddered, He must have shook His head in sadness a bit, before He hit the “create” button. There must have been some very important reason to hit the button, something to do with Love.

As far as working with children, I am not sure children are ready to hear about a God who loves and forgives unconditionally. Children operate (hopefully) on God-as-conscience, and the conscience contradicts such a God. Children need to know what is right and what is wrong and they, as normal humans, need to experience the wrath of those around them when they misbehave. It is a rare child, in my view, who develops empathy soon enough for such empathy to guide their behaviors. Fear works, and has its place, I think.

So does the church need to alter some of the teaches? I learnt of a loving God, yes I heard about hell, but that was something the older generation believed in, yes as I saw Adam and Eve were from a long ago time and that what they did, had nothing to do with me, lol.

“The teaches” is that British verbage? Oh, when are you people going to learn how to spake. Hmmm. Hell. Different thread, I think. But while I am talking about the conscience, if a person equates God with the conscience, which I think we all do as children, then yes, when we misbehave we really do think we are knowingly and willingly turning away from God! After all, if “god” is simply the rulebook, then what else is there to relationship than following the rules?

 

[simpleas]

Well, the source of power is God. So, if a person is seeking power, it is power that can only comes from God. If they are seeking power and thinking “I am turning from God” they are mistaken. In some ways, when we turn from God, there is God where we turn.

To me, the repentance part is more in important than the “need to ask forgiveness part”. But when we see that we need to ask forgiveness, it is all part of the repentance process. We will want to ask forgiveness when we realize our error. God, as I know Him, has already forgiven. God, as I know Him, does not hold it against us in the first place.

The way I look at it, since God knew all that would happen before He created us, my own anthropomorphic view sees that He must have shuddered, He must have shook His head in sadness a bit, before He hit the “create” button. There must have been some very important reason to hit the button, something to do with Love.

As far as working with children, I am not sure children are ready to hear about a God who loves and forgives unconditionally. Children operate (hopefully) on God-as-conscience, and the conscience contradicts such a God. Children need to know what is right and what is wrong and they, as normal humans, need to experience the wrath of those around them when they misbehave. It is a rare child, in my view, who develops empathy soon enough for such empathy to guide their behaviors. Fear works, and has its place, I think.

“The teaches” is that British verbage? Oh, when are you people going to learn how to spake. Hmmm. Hell. Different thread, I think. But while I am talking about the conscience, if a person equates God with the conscience, which I think we all do as children, then yes, when we misbehave we really do think we are knowingly and willingly turning away from God! After all, if “god” is simply the rulebook, then what else is there to relationship than following the rules?

I wasn’t asking you about children hearing about God loving and forgiving unconditionally, I wondered how you observed the children/young adults who make their confirmation. Do they understand what it is they are participating in? Sorry if I didn’t make the question understandable.

cough The teachings cough LOL. :clapping: But if we are going to pick out mistakes, take a look at this line :

So, if a person is seeking power, it is power that can only comes from God.

 

[chefmomster2]

But the man goes without understanding why he sinned! And in doing so, he is prone to repeat.

That is the point of impasse. The ultimate answer for “why” is Sin, or rather our inclination to sin. He understands that he is prone to sin. He also knows that he must avoid temptation. But, temptation wouldn’t be temptation if it didn’t push us to our limits. When it does, we sin.

Are we affected by all of the things you mentioned? Sure! But they don’t always rise to the level of ignorance or blindness.

You, my friend, and I just see this differently. (No judgment here. Mine works for me and your for you.) I don’t dig deeply into my hidden words, feelings and appetites to look for where my sin originated. I don’t find that instructive. I do identify my sin and the things that weakened my resistance to it, such as my vices or faults.

Is there one or more factors that might have left me not fully K&W? Maybe. But those things only come into play as part of what you call the judgment. They can reduce my responsibility, but they don’t change a mortal sin into a venial one.

I can’t judge myself any more than I should judge another. I don’t know what God’s judgment in this specific situation might be. I assume that I must confess and accept God’s loving mercy. I choose this out of love and not fear. I feel I have an increasingly close relationship with God and I don’t want to do anything less than fully loving for His sake. I want to grow in closeness and I want to eliminate anything which could stress or break our relationship. It is far too precious to me.

Oh, and now we can all forgive her, because she has repented. She has jumped through the hoop, the hoop that our conscience creates…Actually, I resented Col. North,

Phew! Oh my! You took this waaaaaay too seriously! It was meant only as a sort of “Where are they now?”. No big deal.

t would be a big shame to stop now, because we have not come to the point of reaching a conclusion. I may still be incorrect on this chefmom! Maybe the man did “know what he was doing”, but we have not finished the investigation.

But you see, for me the investigation does stop there. For me, he knew what he was doing for all of the reasons I’ve previously discussed. What sort of conclusion could we reach?

Please, don’t let me “win” by forfeit.

Another thing I don’t interpret as others might. I see participation in the forums and specifically this thread to be a big “win” for everyone.

 

[OneSheep]

That is the point of impasse. The ultimate answer for “why” is Sin, or rather our inclination to sin. He understands that he is prone to sin. He also knows that he must avoid temptation. But, temptation wouldn’t be temptation if it didn’t push us to our limits. When it does, we sin.

When we reach that “limit”, though, there is still a choice involved. No one is forced to sin. The question is, what is going on in his mind at the moment of the choice? He is not saying “I must avoid temptation”. He is saying something else!

Are we affected by all of the things you mentioned? Sure! But they don’t always rise to the level of ignorance or blindness.

See, this is what we are trying to find out with our investigation, though. I am going to help with the next step here.

You, my friend, and I just see this differently. (No judgment here. Mine works for me and your for you.) I don’t dig deeply into my hidden words, feelings and appetites to look for where my sin originated. I don’t find that instructive. I do identify my sin and the things that weakened my resistance to it, such as my vices or faults.

But have you ever tried? What do you have to lose? It is a journey, chefmom. We don’t want to “go there”. Why? Because our mind protects the injuries that form our consciences. We experience pain in some way, and our conscience transforms the pain into ideas of good and bad behaviors. Our mind, our conscience, says “whatever the source of that behavior is, it is a bad source.” And that is the “cell” of a particular behavior set. It is painful to “go there” because it involves great humility, it means making some very painful admissions. This may all sound a bit nebulous, but I can illustrate, and the man can experience this.

Is there one or more factors that might have left me not fully K&W? Maybe. But those things only come into play as part of what you call the judgment. They can reduce my responsibility, but they don’t change a mortal sin into a venial one.

So, a person is responsible when they are irresponsible? Again, I think we are moving into judicial territory there. This is a process of discovery. A very wise priest once told me “it is not to condemn or condone, but understand.” You can blame him for setting me on this road. It is a road of discovery.

But you see, for me the investigation does stop there. For me, he knew what he was doing for all of the reasons I’ve previously discussed. What sort of conclusion could we reach?

Another thing I don’t interpret as others might. I see participation in the forums and specifically this thread to be a big “win” for everyone.

The conclusion we can reach is that he was not right in his mind, that he was blind. We cannot discover this unless we go further. Yes, I have learned a lot so far in this thread.

Now, if you don’t mind… I ask for a little patience. Let me give the man some options, and you can pick one of these, or modify one, or suggest another thought that was going on in the man’s mind.

OneSheep: What was going on in your mind when you chose to sin?

Man: Well, it was (pick one, please, chefmom):

A. I want this woman. I don’t care about anything else, nothing else matters. I want her.

B. This woman thinks I’m special. My wife doesn’t think I’m special. She is probably having an affair with someone else.

C. Hey, lots of people have affairs. Does God send them all to hell? Nah. This is no big deal.

OneSheep: So what was it, man, was it all of the above? Something else?

 

[chefmomster2]

I’ll hang in just a bit longer, but just a bit.

When we reach that “limit”, though, there is still a choice involved. No one is forced to sin. The question is, what is going on in his mind at the moment of the choice? He is not saying “I must avoid temptation”. He is saying something else!

You are right. He is not saying I must avoid temptation. He is saying, " I am strong enough to resist this temptation. I can rely on myself to avoid this sin."

See, this is what we are trying to find out with our investigation, though. I am going to help with the next step here.

Can I be honest? My impression is that you are disinclined to see a reasonable end that does not confirm your view. Each new “thought” you insist is not the “real” thought. This appears to be a search for areas that you can declare as blinding or ignorant rather than the search for truth.

Because our mind protects the injuries that form our consciences.

Where do you find that our conscience is formed by our injuries? The conscience is a decision-making mechanism. “Conscience is a judgment of reason whereby the human person recognizes the moral quality of a concrete act that he is going to perform, is in the process of performing, or has already completed.”

So, a person is responsible when they are irresponsible?

Nope. They are responsible for their behavior, as in there is no excuse for the seriously wrong behavior. But the Church asserts that certain things can “mitigate” responsibility. Not judicial. Just reflecting the teaching of the Church. These mitigating factors are exactly the same things that you are looking at. No difference.

Aren’t you also making judgments? You are judging whether the man has searched deeply enough. You will be judging whether or not his "discoveries, if they are forthcoming, are blinding/ignorant.

Again, I think we are moving into judicial territory there.

We are making judgments. We are attempting to judge whether the man has K&W rejected God. To dismiss what I feel are important points is unfair. You need to be open to my approach as I have tried to be to yours. You may certainly disagree with me, but please refrain from suggesting that my arguments are invalid or unacceptable to the moderators.

This is a process of discovery. A very wise priest once told me “it is not to condemn or condone, but understand.”

I am not looking to condemn the man. I can understand why he might wish to commit adultery- boredom, pain, etc. What I disagree with is your opinion that such motivations (or whatever word you wish to use) necessarily blind or reveal ignorance which would then affect whether he K&W reject God.

The conclusion we can reach is that he was not right in his mind, that he was blind.

I find it suggestive that you do not respond by including both possible outcomes. Namely, that there is insufficient blindness or ignorance.

Now, if you don’t mind… I ask for a little patience. Let me give the man some options, and you can pick one of these, or modify one, or suggest another thought that was going on in the man’s mind.

OneSheep: What was going on in your mind when you chose to sin?
OneSheep: So what was it, man, was it all of the above? Something else?

Choose one yourself so that you can explain your nebulous idea above.

 

[changetheclock]

I don’t think that anyone who knows God rejects him. These people are poor souls who never knew God. Perhaps lived in sadness, loneliness, fear, abuse, a world of hate. They maybe were never taught love or introduced to God. so they continued in a path of non-trust and negativity. A person like this needs a savior to help them see that God’s love exists and there is evidence of it in the world. Do not reject this person but show him or her how Christian life works.

 

[davidv]

I don’t think that anyone who knows God rejects him. These people are poor souls who never knew God. Perhaps lived in sadness, loneliness, fear, abuse, a world of hate. They maybe were never taught love or introduced to God. so they continued in a path of non-trust and negativity. A person like this needs a savior to help them see that God’s love exists and there is evidence of it in the world. Do not reject this person but show him or her how Christian life works.

If all of the above is true, how can there ever be sin?

Seems to me that the arguments of this type are, more or less, veiled attempts at denying responsibity for actions.

 

[empther]

I don’t think that anyone who knows God rejects him. These people are poor souls who never knew God. Perhaps lived in sadness, loneliness, fear, abuse, a world of hate. They maybe were never taught love or introduced to God. so they continued in a path of non-trust and negativity.

The literary critic Joan Larson Klein wrote a very through analysis of Lady Macbeth. Her article can be found in some, but not all, editions of Penguin’s book Macbeth. Read the table of contents before buying the book.

As Klein explains:
Lady Macbeth wanted “self-fulfillment”. She wanted “unimpeded exercise of her will”.
Therefore, “she had no scruples”.

This, of course, is at the base of all sin. We want something, we think getting it will make us happy, so we go after it by any means available.
Somehow, we think we can escape punishment. Lady Macbeth told Macbeth “These things must not be thought of too deeply. They will drive us mad.”

But though Lady Macbeth asked the powers of hell to extinguisn any feelings of guilt in her, she couldn’t escape her conscience.

Nought’s had, all’s spent,
Where our desire is got without content:
'Tis safer to be that which we destroy
Than by destruction dwell in doubtful joy.

She did go mad.

So sinning is fooling of ourselves for temporary gain. It’s inevitable we will pay a price.

 

[chefmomster2]

I don’t think that anyone who knows God rejects him. These people are poor souls who never knew God. Perhaps lived in sadness, loneliness, fear, abuse, a world of hate. They maybe were never taught love or introduced to God. so they continued in a path of non-trust and negativity. A person like this needs a savior to help them see that God’s love exists and there is evidence of it in the world. Do not reject this person but show him or her how Christian life works.

People who never knew God are not the issue. They can’t be held responsible if they were invincibly ignorant. You are absolutely correct that they need evangelization.

As for those who are baptized, anyone who commits mortal sin does in fact reject God knowingly and willingly. That is the definition of mortal sin. Even venial sins damage our relationship with God.

 

[simpleas]

I think we really aren’t rejecting, I think we are rejecting ourselves tbh. What ever it is that may cause us to sin could be the rejection of oneself or other people, and I believe God doesn’t want us to reject ourselves and others.

Thats got to be the bestest hurdle for every human being, excepting oneself, and allowing other people to be who they are.

Does that sound very uncatholic?

The person who has the affair is rejecting the spouse for whatever reason, then will go on to reject themself, if there is guilt after. God is the only one who the person can turn to, if they think they have rejected God then this could push them into never realising their sin against their spouse, and a fear that God isn’t there.

Just my thoughts thinking through this question.

 

[chefmomster2]

Does that sound very uncatholic?

Yes. We have been told by Christ and His Church that following Christ’s teaching is the way that we prove our faith. We will be judged based on this faith. It is the way we express our Love for God.

When we sin, we do the opposite. We fail in our faith. When we seriously sin, we are rejecting the Word of God that defines what our faith should look like. We are not acting in love. We are pushing God away by doing things that are expressly defined as acts that indicate by their very nature that they are rejection of God.

The person who has the affair is rejecting the spouse. God is the only one who the person can turn to, if they think they have rejected God then this could push them into never realising their sin against their spouse, and a fear that God isn’t there.

Even after rejecting God we can always return to Him! Sometimes we become alienated, but this is because of our sin. We are no longer in a state of sanctifying grace. In one way, God has “left us”. The Holy Spirit has left their soul. (Because we rejected Him. He respects our free will.) He is always nearby and prepared to re-enter. But this does not change the reality of serious sin.

This does not mean that God would not welcome us back. If we obtain sacramental reconciliation, we receive the Spirit and His Grace. Many of us are moved to go to confession because of this loss of relationship. If we refuse to admit our guilt or to go to confession, we are refusing God’s mercy and therefore continuing to reject Him.

If one decides that God “isn’t there” due to this teaching, then they are continuing their rejection. Justifying one’s sin by blaming the victim is not a cause of their unwillingness to admit guilt. They refuse to admit guilt because they have rejected God’s love.

Think of a loving relationship with another person. That person has expectations.
Imagine that…

• we constantly call the person humiliating names or,
• we frequently demean them or,
• we always insult them in front of others.

Imagine that we still keep professing our deep love.

What do you believe? The unloving act? The loving words? Which demonstrates our feelings? Would we still be in a loving relationship? Wouldn’t we be rejecting the person through our cruel acts? It’s the same with God.