Why does anyone knowingly and willingly reject God?

[OneSheep]

I wasn’t asking you about children hearing about God loving and forgiving unconditionally, I wondered how you observed the children/young adults who make their confirmation. Do they understand what it is they are participating in? Sorry if I didn’t make the question understandable.

Sadly, most of them do not. Most kids I know get confirmed so they can get married in the Church. There is a huge gap in adult catechesis. Parents do not know what confirmation is about, and parents, the ones who go to mass only once in awhile, are the first catechists.

cough The teachings cough LOL. :clapping: But if we are going to pick out mistakes, take a look at this line :

So, if a person is seeking power, it is power that can only comes from God.

Ya know, I had to read that about 3 times before I saw my goof? Frankly, I thought “teaches” was kinda cute. You mean its not a British thing?

Yes, Baptism does not inject any kind of “knowing” into the kids or the parents. Most of the time, they don’t even know what it means to be confirmed, they only have a vague idea! What needs to be done is to be very adamant about what Baptism (confirmation) means, and then really pin down the candidates to make sure they are ready to make a life commitment. If they are not, the next step is to talk to parents and explain that they are not ready. I think that most of the time the parents would think of the lack of readiness as “no big deal, they should just do it”, which again demonstrates the lack of catechesis of the parents. Baptism of infants, to me, is meaningless in the context of decision by the infant, but I love the celebration of the newborn in the Church! I love the parents saying “we raise our child in love and to learn of God” or something like that.

 

[simpleas]

Yes. We have been told by Christ and His Church that following Christ’s teaching is the way that we prove our faith. We will be judged based on this faith. It is the way we express our Love for God.

When we sin, we do the opposite. We fail in our faith. When we seriously sin, we are rejecting the Word of God that defines what our faith should look like. We are not acting in love. We are pushing God away by doing things that are expressly defined as acts that indicate by their very nature that they are rejection of God.Even after rejecting God we can always return to Him! Sometimes we become alienated, but this is because of our sin. We are no longer in a state of sanctifying grace. In one way, God has “left us”. The Holy Spirit has left their soul. (Because we rejected Him. He respects our free will.) He is always nearby and prepared to re-enter. But this does not change the reality of serious sin.

This does not mean that God would not welcome us back. If we obtain sacramental reconciliation, we receive the Spirit and His Grace. Many of us are moved to go to confession because of this loss of relationship. If we refuse to admit our guilt or to go to confession, we are refusing God’s mercy and therefore continuing to reject Him.

If one decides that God “isn’t there” due to this teaching, then they are continuing their rejection. Justifying one’s sin by blaming the victim is not a cause of their unwillingness to admit guilt. They refuse to admit guilt because they have rejected God’s love.

Think of a loving relationship with another person. That person has expectations.
Imagine that…

• we constantly call the person humiliating names or,
• we frequently demean them or,
• we always insult them in front of others.

Imagine that we still keep professing our deep love.

What do you believe? The unloving act? The loving words? Which demonstrates our feelings? Would we still be in a loving relationship? Wouldn’t we be rejecting the person through our cruel acts? It’s the same with God.

So to accept yourself and others isn’t the way a catholic should think? I seem to have believed this for years, but like I’ve said before I don’t think we should just do whatever we want in life regardless of anyone else’s feelings or life etc.

The church tells us also that we can confess over and over and we will always be forgiven. I’ve had trouble getting to grips with that, if we say we love God more than ourselves or our family, then why do we sin so easily, even when we confess, we still fall. I get we need Gods help, and its all a journey of faith, but when do we get to decide with our own conscience?

For me I can not connect hurting a human in the same way to God.
I do try to believe God is in everyone.

I can see the harm my words or actions may cause a person, God is supernatural being, unable to be affected by us, as in he needs nothing from us, we always will need him.
If someone was treating me badly but telling me they loved me, I wouldn’t believe them, however I don’t think God thinks like a human, in that he gets jealous, angry, or annoyed like we feel.
I just don’t see how we reject God K&W unless we think we can do all without him, never express love for him etc. And when we sin, we fall short, we fail, but reject God…

 

[simpleas]

Sadly, most of them do not. Most kids I know get confirmed so they can get married in the Church. There is a huge gap in adult catechesis. Parents do not know what confirmation is about, and parents, the ones who go to mass only once in awhile, are the first catechists.

Ya know, I had to read that about 3 times before I saw my goof? Frankly, I thought “teaches” was kinda cute. You mean its not a British thing?

Yes, Baptism does not inject any kind of “knowing” into the kids or the parents. Most of the time, they don’t even know what it means to be confirmed, they only have a vague idea! What needs to be done is to be very adamant about what Baptism (confirmation) means, and then really pin down the candidates to make sure they are ready to make a life commitment. If they are not, the next step is to talk to parents and explain that they are not ready. I think that most of the time the parents would think of the lack of readiness as “no big deal, they should just do it”, which again demonstrates the lack of catechesis of the parents. Baptism of infants, to me, is meaningless in the context of decision by the infant, but I love the celebration of the newborn in the Church! I love the parents saying “we raise our child in love and to learn of God” or something like that.

You mean the kids have a choice to be confirmed?

Our priest said something similar about having children baptised just so they can attend the catholic school. The parents will bring the children during preparation and then he won’t see them again after they are baptised. Also he points out to the parents that its not his job or the teachers jobs to educate their children about faith, its also their responsibility…sad really.

I saw your goof first time I read it, and no my mistake isn’t a british thing, it’s a simpleas’ writing mistake! I have plenty of em

 

[chefmomster2]

So to accept yourself and others isn’t the way a catholic should think? I seem to have believed this for years, but like I’ve said before I don’t think we should just do whatever we want in life regardless of anyone else’s feelings or life etc.

Yes, we are supposed to accept ourselves and all others as Jesus told us. The problem is that you said (Correct me if I misunderstood.) that we are not actually rejecting God when we sin. We are rejecting ouselves or the other person through our action. In actuality we are rejecting all of these, including God.

if we say we love God more than ourselves or our family, then why do we sin so easily, even when we confess, we still fall.

We are imperfect creatures who try sincerely, but we still sin because of the consequences of Original Sin. It is also meant to be a lesson to us. We can never earn heaven. We can never deserve heaven. So, we come to know the greatness of God’s mercy. It is only due to His Love that we can be saved. So, we act morally to show our love for God and He saves us to show His Love for us.

Matthew 19:
25 When the disciples heard this, they were greatly astonished and said, “Who then can be saved?”
26 Jesus looked at them and said, “For human beings this is impossible, but for God all things are possible.”

I get we need Gods help, and its all a journey of faith, but when do we get to decide with our own conscience?

We are always supposed to act from our conscience, BUT we need to make sure our conscience is true. We must learn the doctrine of the Church, accept it obediently, and incorporate the doctrine into our conscience. It is a rational process. It judges whether something is evil or good. If we feel that something is against our conscience and we know that the Church disagrees, we have a duty and obligation to study the issue thoroughly before acting. We can’t just go on the basis of opinion or feelings.

I can see the harm my words or actions may cause a person, God is supernatural being, unable to be affected by us, as in he needs nothing from us, we always will need him.
If someone was treating me badly but telling me they loved me, I wouldn’t believe them, however I don’t think God thinks like a human, in that he gets jealous, angry, or annoyed like we feel.

You’re right that God is different from human beings. We can’t hurt Him in the same way. But, we reject Him by not loving Him. He has told us how to love Him: (This is also where Christ indicates which sins are deadly since He only mentions the sins that can cost you eternal life.)

Matthew 19:
The Rich Young Man.
16 Now someone approached him and said, “Teacher, what good must I do to gain eternal life?”*
17 He answered him, “Why do you ask me about the good? There is only One who is good.* If you wish to enter into life, keep the commandments.”
18 He asked him, “Which ones?” And Jesus replied, “ ‘You shall not kill; you shall not commit adultery; you shall not steal; you shall not bear false witness;
19 honor your father and your mother’; and ‘you shall love your neighbor as yourself.’”

But, when we don’t obey we are choosing not to act lovingly in the way God asked. God has also told us what this means. It means that we are rejecting Him.

Matthew 25:
41 Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you accursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.
42 For I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink,
43 a stranger and you gave me no welcome, naked and you gave me no clothing, ill and in prison, and you did not care for me.’
44 Then they will answer and say, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or ill or in prison, and not minister to your needs?’
45 He will answer them, ‘Amen, I say to you, what you did not do for one of these least ones, you did not do for me.’
46 And these will go off to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”

My example was just to show you how our actions, even if we claim to love someone, can actually make our rejection evident. This is not so very different with God. Love=doing what He asks of us. Rejection=K&W not doing what He asks of us.

I just don’t see how we reject God K&W unless we think we can do all without him, never express love for him etc. And when we sin, we fall short, we fail, but reject God…

If we K&W commit mortal sin, it is the same thing as K&W rejecting God for all of the reasons I already gave.

CCC 1850 Sin is an offense against God: "Against you, you alone, have I sinned, and done that which is evil in your sight."122 Sin sets itself against God’s love for us and turns our hearts away from it. Like the first sin, it is disobedience, a revolt against God through the will to become "like gods,"123 knowing and determining good and evil. Sin is thus "love of oneself even to contempt of God."124 In this proud self- exaltation, sin is diametrically opposed to the obedience of Jesus, which achieves our salvation.125

1855 Mortal sin destroys charity in the heart of man by a grave violation of God’s law; it turns man away from God, who is his ultimate end and his beatitude, by preferring an inferior good to him.

***There are things that can make one not fully consent. For instance, mental illness, extreme emotion, and the like. But we should not count on God judging as we do. It is too easy for us to justify our own bad behavior. It is always a good idea to assume we are in the state of mortal sin and receive reconciliation if we commit mortal sin.

 

[Cybophonia]

I think there are people who willingly reject certain perhaps distorted ideas of God and actually hate them to the guts.

 

[simpleas]

Yes, we are supposed to accept ourselves and all others as Jesus told us. The problem is that you said (Correct me if I misunderstood.) that we are not actually rejecting God when we sin. We are rejecting ouselves or the other person through our action. In actuality we are rejecting all of these, including God.

We are imperfect creatures who try sincerely, but we still sin because of the consequences of Original Sin. It is also meant to be a lesson to us. We can never earn heaven. We can never deserve heaven. So, we come to know the greatness of God’s mercy. It is only due to His Love that we can be saved. So, we act morally to show our love for God and He saves us to show His Love for us.

Matthew 19:
25 When the disciples heard this, they were greatly astonished and said, “Who then can be saved?”
26 Jesus looked at them and said, “For human beings this is impossible, but for God all things are possible.”
We are always supposed to act from our conscience, BUT we need to make sure our conscience is true. We must learn the doctrine of the Church, accept it obediently, and incorporate the doctrine into our conscience. It is a rational process. It judges whether something is evil or good. If we feel that something is against our conscience and we know that the Church disagrees, we have a duty and obligation to study the issue thoroughly before acting. We can’t just go on the basis of opinion or feelings.

You’re right that God is different from human beings. We can’t hurt Him in the same way. But, we reject Him by not loving Him. He has told us how to love Him: (This is also where Christ indicates which sins are deadly since He only mentions the sins that can cost you eternal life.)

Matthew 19:
The Rich Young Man.
16 Now someone approached him and said, “Teacher, what good must I do to gain eternal life?”*
17 He answered him, “Why do you ask me about the good? There is only One who is good.* If you wish to enter into life, keep the commandments.”
18 He asked him, “Which ones?” And Jesus replied, “ ‘You shall not kill; you shall not commit adultery; you shall not steal; you shall not bear false witness;
19 honor your father and your mother’; and ‘you shall love your neighbor as yourself.’”

But, when we don’t obey we are choosing not to act lovingly in the way God asked. God has also told us what this means. It means that we are rejecting Him.

Matthew 25:
41 Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you accursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.
42 For I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink,
43 a stranger and you gave me no welcome, naked and you gave me no clothing, ill and in prison, and you did not care for me.’
44 Then they will answer and say, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or ill or in prison, and not minister to your needs?’
45 He will answer them, ‘Amen, I say to you, what you did not do for one of these least ones, you did not do for me.’
46 And these will go off to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”

My example was just to show you how our actions, even if we claim to love someone, can actually make our rejection evident. This is not so very different with God. Love=doing what He asks of us. Rejection=K&W not doing what He asks of us.

If we K&W commit mortal sin, it is the same thing as K&W rejecting God for all of the reasons I already gave.

CCC 1850 Sin is an offense against God: "Against you, you alone, have I sinned, and done that which is evil in your sight."122 Sin sets itself against God’s love for us and turns our hearts away from it. Like the first sin, it is disobedience, a revolt against God through the will to become "like gods,"123 knowing and determining good and evil. Sin is thus "love of oneself even to contempt of God."124 In this proud self- exaltation, sin is diametrically opposed to the obedience of Jesus, which achieves our salvation.125

1855 Mortal sin destroys charity in the heart of man by a grave violation of God’s law; it turns man away from God, who is his ultimate end and his beatitude, by preferring an inferior good to him.

***There are things that can make one not fully consent. For instance, mental illness, extreme emotion, and the like. But we should not count on God judging as we do. It is too easy for us to justify our own bad behavior. It is always a good idea to assume we are in the state of mortal sin and receive reconciliation if we commit mortal sin.

Thanks.
Yeah I said I think, not that I know. I never insist that I know all about God, just about my own experience of God in my life.

You said a few posts back (i think) that sin is automatic. It isn’t always automatic though is it? For example in a situation where a person can control their temper, rather than just let rip theres usually a split second were the conscience kicks in, and the person either relents or explodes. I don’t think in a situation like that a person K&W rejects God. Only after they may feel guilt for the anger against the other person, guilty enough to confess.

Matthew 19 and 25.
The commandents I have thought are very easy to follow, the list of mortal sins makes things alittle more of a challenge.
Matthew 25, Jesus seems to talk of people who do not care for others, and so do not care for him.

I sort of agree about rejecting God through rejecting others, just find that alot of people who believe in God do things against others because they believe they are doing it for God, thats its Gods will etc.
Catholics I know don’t think this way, but I find it hard to know and love God if I’m told how and why I should do it, if you get my meaning.

Any way thanks for your (name removed by moderator)ut.
Take care

 

[chefmomster2]

I never insist that I know all about God, just about my own experience of God in my life.

Great point! It’s one thing to intellectually “know” the catechism. It’s a totally different thing to say we “know” what God would do or all He’s capable of. I don’t think we have the power to know the full magnificence of God.

You said a few posts back (i think) that sin is automatic.

Some things are automatically sinful, such as adultery, murder, etc., the “shalt nots”. The Church feels they are just so basic to natural law that we would automatically know they’re wrong.

It isn’t always automatic though is it? For example in a situation where a person can control their temper, rather than just let rip theres usually a split second were the conscience kicks in, and the person either relents or explodes…

You’re absolutely correct! We do have emotions and passions that are part of being human. The feelings themselves aren’t sinful. If we stop ourselves before acting in a sinful way, we are not sinning. In fact, I believe I read somewhere that making good choices adds grace and strength to us so in a sense we would be “rewarded”. We are showing our love for God, actually showing it K&W.

The commandents I have thought are very easy to follow, the list of mortal sins makes things a little more of a challenge.

I have always found the opposite to be true to me. It is “easy” to avoid adultery for example, but hard to always be patient with my husband or unselfish in our relationship.

I sort of agree about rejecting God through rejecting others, just find that alot of people who believe in God do things against others because they believe they are doing it for God, thats its Gods will etc.

I agree. Just think about the way people have used religion through the years ro justify persecution, murder, war, and torture.

I find it hard to know and love God if I’m told how and why I should do it, if you get my meaning.

Were you always a bit of a rebel? Maybe it’s the same here? I have always been someone who follows the rules. I do buck the system when it’s really necessary, but in general I tend to comply. I think this helps me in the case of the Church. It makes it easier for me to accept Church teaching even when I am unsure. But, being a rebel has advavtages, too. When you do finally accept something, you have likely thouht it through so much that you can accept it fully and without reservation.

I don’t think most people want to reject God. I am not sure many people will be found fully culpable for mortal sin and sent to Hell. I just know that Sin can make it happen. Our pride can make it “appealing”. I just pray to be able to avoid sin, like everyone else, and to love God more and more.

Thanks for the discussion.
Take care! :tiphat:

 

[OneSheep]

I’ll hang in just a bit longer, but just a bit.

You are right. He is not saying I must avoid temptation. He is saying, " I am strong enough to resist this temptation. I can rely on myself to avoid this sin."

Perhaps he is saying that, but that may be a statement of ignorance. But this is not what was going on in his mind when he sinned. He may be quite unaware, though, what was going on in his mind. The choices I provided would be going on in his “reasoned” mind. If he was saying the above, it was still being overridden by something stronger going on in his mind.

Can I be honest? My impression is that you are disinclined to see a reasonable end that does not confirm your view. Each new “thought” you insist is not the “real” thought. This appears to be a search for areas that you can declare as blinding or ignorant rather than the search for truth.

So, the person is thinking “I will not be tempted, I can avoid temptation” and then he sins immediately after, or while he is sinning? That is unreasonable, chefmom, this man is supposed to have a “reasoned” mind. No, something overpowered the “I can avoid” part. I am not disinclined to seeing a reasonable end. A person saying “I can avoid temptation” all the way into and during an affair has something else much more prominent guiding his behavior. Do you see what I mean?

Where do you find that our conscience is formed by our injuries? The conscience is a decision-making mechanism. “Conscience is a judgment of reason whereby the human person recognizes the moral quality of a concrete act that he is going to perform, is in the process of performing, or has already completed.”

Right. So where the injuries come into play is that i.e. as children we all had something stolen, suffered, and then perhaps we stole from someone else, witnessed their suffering or had it pointed out to us. We may have suffered reprimand. It is my observation that these occurrences form the conscience. We (our consciences) condemn those behaviors, and we condemn the motives for those behaviors. The conscience guides us once it is formed. Toddlers steal things from each other, their consciences are not yet formed on this aspect. Toddlers who do not experience pain, people who genetically do not experience pain, have great difficulties in conscience formation.

Aren’t you also making judgments? You are judging whether the man has searched deeply enough. You will be judging whether or not his "discoveries, if they are forthcoming, are blinding/ignorant.

“Judging” is a word rather broad in definition. If I am saying that the man has not searched deeply enough, I am doing so because of the reasons I stated above. Look at what Adam said to God about defying Him, or look at what was going on in his mind when he choose to eat the fruit. Those words explain the motives behind action, and what Adam was thinking. The man saying “I want to avoid temptation, but I gave in” gives a statement of will, but it does not explain why he made the choice he made. What is the statement he “gave in” to? What was he actually saying when he gave in to temptation? What was going on in the mind of this reasoned man as he was sinning?
I remember once going round and round with a guy on the question “why do people sin?” and all he could come up with was “because they think they can get away with it”. This explains that people think they can avoid punishment, but it does not explain why they sinned. “He gave into temptation” explains that he let go of some aspect of his will, but it does not explain what the mindset was that overpowered the will. So, yes, I have determined that there was much more going on in his mind. If he does not know what was going on in his mind, then this fact only further demonstrates that he is ignorant or blind.

We are making judgments. We are attempting to judge whether the man has K&W rejected God. To dismiss what I feel are important points is unfair. You need to be open to my approach as I have tried to be to yours. You may certainly disagree with me, but please refrain from suggesting that my arguments are invalid or unacceptable to the moderators.

I am not dismissing your points, but I do fear the moderators, for good reason. I would be happy to discuss the judicial approach on a new thread, really! Discovery before judgment is a universal approach, is it not? The discovery process is not over. Your arguments are not invalid or unacceptable, but we are not ready to apply them, and we can only do so on a different thread, I think.

 

[OneSheep]

chefmomster2:

I am not looking to condemn the man. I can understand why he might wish to commit adultery- boredom, pain, etc. What I disagree with is your opinion that such motivations (or whatever word you wish to use) necessarily blind or reveal ignorance which would then affect whether he K&W reject God.

I find it suggestive that you do not respond by including both possible outcomes. Namely, that there is insufficient blindness or ignorance.

Choose one yourself so that you can explain your nebulous idea above.

Sorry about the nebulousness. Let’s go with the first one, then. It is really a shame that I have to pick it, since we may run into the issue where I am forming the character of the “reasoned” man, and you may understandably reject a character modification. Something is going through the man’s mind other than “I can avoid temptation”.

OneSheep: What was going on in your mind when you chose to sin?

Man: Well, it was (pick one, please, chefmom):

A. I want this woman. I don’t care about anything else, nothing else matters. I want her.

B. This woman thinks I’m special. My wife doesn’t think I’m special. She is probably having an affair with someone else.

C. Hey, lots of people have affairs. Does God send them all to hell? Nah. This is no big deal.

OneSheep: So what was it, man, was it all of the above? Something else?

Man: Well, I’m not really sure what was going through my mind, but I guess “A” fits it best. I did not care about anything else, I just wanted that woman. I did not care about life everlasting, or my wife, or my kids, I was just caught up in the passion. Nothing else mattered. All that mattered was having an affair with her, she met my needs at the moment. I looked at the options of having the affair or not, and at that moment only the affair mattered, everything else would have to be worried about another day.

What do you say, Chefmom? Does this fit the character of the “reasoned Catholic” you formulated? Sorry about my delay, I am having trouble getting online time. I look forward to your response, as always.

 

[OneSheep]

As for those who are baptized, anyone who commits mortal sin does in fact reject God knowingly and willingly. That is the definition of mortal sin. Even venial sins damage our relationship with God.

Are you saying that baptism automatically injects a “knowing” into the human? That baptism also injects into the human knowledge of all of his options? That is not what the Church teaches, is it?

When one of your children sins against you does it damage the relationship? Or do you forgive? I can see this making sense in terms of that the person in so choosing sin is choosing from a position of lack of relationship. So the sin is not the problem in itself, the sin is a manifestation of lack of relationship, right? “Knowing” comes from relationship, does it not?

 

[simpleas]

Great point! It’s one thing to intellectually “know” the catechism. It’s a totally different thing to say we “know” what God would do or all He’s capable of. I don’t think we have the power to know the full magnificence of God.
Some things are automatically sinful, such as adultery, murder, etc., the “shalt nots”. The Church feels they are just so basic to natural law that we would automatically know they’re wrong.
You’re absolutely correct! We do have emotions and passions that are part of being human. The feelings themselves aren’t sinful. If we stop ourselves before acting in a sinful way, we are not sinning. In fact, I believe I read somewhere that making good choices adds grace and strength to us so in a sense we would be “rewarded”. We are showing our love for God, actually showing it K&W.

I have always found the opposite to be true to me. It is “easy” to avoid adultery for example, but hard to always be patient with my husband or unselfish in our relationship.

I agree. Just think about the way people have used religion through the years ro justify persecution, murder, war, and torture.

Were you always a bit of a rebel? Maybe it’s the same here? I have always been someone who follows the rules. I do buck the system when it’s really necessary, but in general I tend to comply. I think this helps me in the case of the Church. It makes it easier for me to accept Church teaching even when I am unsure. But, being a rebel has advavtages, too. When you do finally accept something, you have likely thouht it through so much that you can accept it fully and without reservation.

I don’t think most people want to reject God. I am not sure many people will be found fully culpable for mortal sin and sent to Hell. I just know that Sin can make it happen. Our pride can make it “appealing”. I just pray to be able to avoid sin, like everyone else, and to love God more and more.

Thanks for the discussion.
Take care! :tiphat:

Me, a rebel? ha, I don’t think I am, could be wrong, but no like you I have always followed the rules, but have been a deep thinker, its just that deep thinking has grown over the past year or so to the point I started to question alot, as some things didn’t make sense anymore, maybe they never did, but I had never questioned them.

Can I ask, when you say I just pray to be able to avoid sin, like everyone else, and to love God more and more.

When you have sinned, have you ever thought you stopped loving God?

 

[chefmomster2]

Me, a rebel? ha, I don’t think I am, could be wrong, but no like you I have always followed the rules, but have been a deep thinker, its just that deep thinking has grown over the past year or so to the point I started to question alot, as some things didn’t make sense anymore, maybe they never did, but I had never questioned them.

Can I ask, when you say I just pray to be able to avoid sin, like everyone else, and to love God more and more.

When you have sinned, have you ever thought you stopped loving God?

Good question! No, I don’t think so. And I know that matters. But I didn’t realize before recently how strong the obligation to follow “the rules” is for Catholics.

I also think that it matters that we love God in the way that He has asked us to. If I believe what the Church says then I have to believe that sinning is rejecting God. So, if I love Him I can show Him that most perfectly by not sinning and most especially by not committing mortal sin. Now that I understand what mortal sin really is (rejecting God) I feel even more bound to obey.

I’m a “deep thinker” too. It is sometimes a bad thing for me. Sometimes I go over something 100 different ways until I totally confuse myself! At those times I am really glad to have an infallible Magisterium to rely on for the real answers.

 

[simpleas]

Good question! No, I don’t think so. And I know that matters. But I didn’t realize before recently how strong the obligation to follow “the rules” is for Catholics.

I also think that it matters that we love God in the way that He has asked us to. If I believe what the Church says then I have to believe that sinning is rejecting God. So, if I love Him I can show Him that most perfectly by not sinning and most especially by not committing mortal sin. Now that I understand what mortal sin really is (rejecting God) I feel even more bound to obey.

I’m a “deep thinker” too. It is sometimes a bad thing for me. Sometimes I go over something 100 different ways until I totally confuse myself! At those times I am really glad to have an infallible Magisterium to rely on for the real answers.

Thanks.

So if you don’t think that you ever stopped loving God then you could not have rejected him. This is the way I see it from my relationship with God, not from someone else’s.
I know it may sound like I’m saying we can sin and not have to be sorry or ask forgiveness its not.

Mortal sin = death of the soul, seems it could be rejection of God to some degree, I suppose only God knows if a person is rejecting his love in a K&W way, the person also would know through their experience of God in their life.

Yep, that’s me in a nutshell, thinking and going over things. I accept we need a form of spiritual leadership, I also believe God wants us to do our best with the life he freely gave us, and when we grow in relationship with him, we may rely less on asking another person what God wants of us.

I don’t think there is one standard way to know and love God. I do think it really helps to chat with other like minded people

 

[OneSheep]

Thanks.

So if you don’t think that you ever stopped loving God then you could not have rejected him. This is the way I see it from my relationship with God, not from someone else’s.
I know it may sound like I’m saying we can sin and not have to be sorry or ask forgiveness its not.

This is the way I experience my relationship too, simpleas. Sin is a manifestation of lack of relationship with God. The lack is already there. Is the lack from outright rejection? I have not ever seen the case of a person really knowing God but doing such rejecting. Is the lack because of poor or diminished catechesis? In all the cases, sin, which comes from such lack of relationship (or greatly diminished relationship) has the necessary ingredient of ignorance or blindness.

Mortal sin = death of the soul, seems it could be rejection of God to some degree, I suppose only God knows if a person is rejecting his love in a K&W way, the person also would know through their experience of God in their life.

Yes, only God knows, but we can also look back on our lives. When I sinned that time, was I purposefully rejecting God? I think it is very important to revisit all of those instances and understand our thinking. It is part of the path of forgiveness. In my experience, I’ve looked back on every single time I’ve sinned and did the discovery process. I come up with the same conclusion, that I did not know what I was doing.

 

[Nan_S]

I know some 20-somethings, raised Catholic by devout parents, who knowingly and openly rejected God. Their reasons:

1. Unchurched boyfriends/girlfriends. At a time when they were trying to puzzle out some of the deeper issues, the unchurched friends were saying, “It’s all myth and legend. It couldn’t possibly be real. It doesn’t make any sense.” This sounded appealing to the Catholic kids, and they wanted to get closer to their friends.

Lest you think this is a result of running with the wrong crowd, some of the kids saying this were in Catholic high school themselves.

1. Personal accountability. If God exists then you’re accountable to Him. If God doesn’t exist then you don’t have to worry about being accountable to Him; you can decide right and wrong for yourself. There are an awful lot of people out there who live by their own rules and (seem to) have perfectly decent lives.
2. Sex. Hormones get switched on; brain gets switched off. Sex is fun. With contraception sex can be nearly guilt-free. The church is run by a bunch of sexually repressed old men who just don’t want anyone to have any fun.

Yes, we know that condoms don’t protect against herpes, but when you’re 24 years old and bulletproof, who’s worried about that?

1. Shallow thinking. Acknowledging God and reversing a hedonistic lifestyle can be rough. Spare the pain and guilt; don’t even go there.

When they’re strongly self-justifying what they want to do, on such a shallow moral level, there’s no amount of logic or guilt which will make much of a dent in their armor. It’s an accomplishment just to keep the dialogue window open. I pray they live long enough to for their immature brains to catch up to their mature bodies, before they find out about parenthood the hard way.

 

[chefmomster2]

Thanks.

So if you don’t think that you ever stopped loving God then you could not have rejected him. This is the way I see it from my relationship with God, not from someone else’s.
I know it may sound like I’m saying we can sin and not have to be sorry or ask forgiveness its not.

Mortal sin = death of the soul, seems it could be rejection of God to some degree, I suppose only God knows if a person is rejecting his love in a K&W way, the person also would know through their experience of God in their life.

Yep, that’s me in a nutshell, thinking and going over things. I accept we need a form of spiritual leadership, I also believe God wants us to do our best with the life he freely gave us, and when we grow in relationship with him, we may rely less on asking another person what God wants of us.

I don’t think there is one standard way to know and love God. I do think it really helps to chat with other like minded people

Actually, just because I did not “feel” that I had rejected doesn’t mean that I didn’t in fact reject him. I is exactly what I did every time I knowingly sinned. I only have to know that it is sinful and do it willingly. I have also committed mortal sin. I knew it was mortal sin and I did it anyway, so it was a full rejection of God.

Truth is truth. I can believe that the sky is green. I can preach this to everyone. I can proclaim it to the world. The sky is still blue.

Sin is rejection. That is the definition of our RCC. I didn’t set the definition. It just “is”.

Have you ever read the Catechism of the Catholic Church on the topic of sin? If not, I think you would find it helpful.

 

[simpleas]

Actually, just because I did not “feel” that I had rejected doesn’t mean that I didn’t in fact reject him. I is exactly what I did every time I knowingly sinned. I only have to know that it is sinful and do it willingly. I have also committed mortal sin. I knew it was mortal sin and I did it anyway, so it was a full rejection of God.

Truth is truth. I can believe that the sky is green. I can preach this to everyone. I can proclaim it to the world. The sky is still blue.

Sin is rejection. That is the definition of our RCC. I didn’t set the definition. It just “is”.

Have you ever read the Catechism of the Catholic Church on the topic of sin? If not, I think you would find it helpful.

Yes I have read the ccc on sin thanks

I thought you said you didn’t think that you stopped loving God when you had sinned?

I accept the way you think about K&W rejecting God, you believe you fully reject God everytime you commit “mortal sin”. You fully trust in the word of RCC

God bless your day :flowers:

 

[simpleas]

This is the way I experience my relationship too, simpleas. Sin is a manifestation of lack of relationship with God. The lack is already there. Is the lack from outright rejection? I have not ever seen the case of a person really knowing God but doing such rejecting. Is the lack because of poor or diminished catechesis? In all the cases, sin, which comes from such lack of relationship (or greatly diminished relationship) has the necessary ingredient of ignorance or blindness.

Yes, only God knows, but we can also look back on our lives. When I sinned that time, was I purposefully rejecting God? I think it is very important to revisit all of those instances and understand our thinking. It is part of the path of forgiveness. In my experience, I’ve looked back on every single time I’ve sinned and did the discovery process. I come up with the same conclusion, that I did not know what I was doing.

I would think, for an example, someone who is a devout catholic could lose their faith in God under extreme pressures, through anger at what they maybe dealing with in life. None of us are perfect, we know this, we are only human, but if the relationship with God was strong before, it would only take some time for the person to find their way back to God.

If there is no relationship with God before, and I’m not sure I can speak for anyone, but like I know lots of fellow catholics, same age as me, who went on their own path of life regardless of our church teachings, I wonder do they think they K&W reject God, (can’t ask them personally).But I do think they would believe they were only rejecting the church teachings on certain things, so this could be lack of catechism, poor understanding of it etc like you said.

 

[chefmomster2]

Chefmomster2: You are right. He is not saying I must avoid temptation. He is saying, " I am strong enough to resist this temptation. I can rely on myself to avoid this sin."

OneSheep: Perhaps he is saying that, but that may be a statement of ignorance.

And perhaps it is a statement of self-reliance that runs counter to the law of God. I am not saying self-reliance is necessarily bad. But, when it means "I don’t need God or the guidance of the Holy Spirit, then it is a rejection. Our own pride is leading us to sin.

OS: A person saying “I can avoid temptation” all the way into and during an affair has something else much more prominent guiding his behavior.

Like what? Remember that pride is considered by many to be “the” capital vice that leads us to all sin. You just haven’t convinced me why there has to be something more.

Hus statement also acknowledges that it is a serious sin. Otherwise, there would be nothing to “avoid”. He would be fully K on that point.

OS: So where the injuries come into play is…that these occurrences form the conscience.

• Why must we have personal experience of the sin to K that it is wrong?
• Are you saying that those experiences form the conscience exclusive of other things?
• If so, at what point is the conscience formed to the point of K?
• If not, what other factors would you include and what would be the extent of their influence in that formation?

OS: We (our consciences) condemn those behaviors, and we condemn the motives for those behaviors. The conscience guides us once it is formed.

Would that person then be K? If so, about what?

OS: Toddlers who do not experience pain, people who genetically do not experience pain, have great difficulties in conscience formation.

• I would need a citation scientifically connecting this genetic abnormality to conscience formation. Can you cite one?* You neglect the very real, and perhaps more acute, ability to experience emotional/spiritual pain. Why? * What does “difficulties” mean here? Please explain your term.

Look at what Adam said to God about defying Him, or look at what was going on in his mind when he choose to eat the fruit. Those words explain the motives behind action, and what Adam was thinking.

Genesis 3: Expulsion from Eden.
1 Now the snake was the most cunning of all the wild animals that the LORD God had made. He asked the woman, “Did God really say, ‘You shall not eat from any of the trees in the garden’?”
2 The woman answered the snake: “We may eat of the fruit of the trees in the garden;
3 it is only about the fruit of the tree in the middle of the garden that God said, ‘You shall not eat it or even touch it, or else you will die.’”
4 But the snake said to the woman: “You certainly will not die!
5 God knows well that when you eat of it your eyes will be opened and you will be like gods, who know* good and evil.”
6 The woman saw that the tree was good for food and pleasing to the eyes, and the tree was desirable for gaining wisdom. So she took some of its fruit and ate it; and she also gave some to her husband, who was with her, and he ate it.
7 Then the eyes of both of them were opened, and they knew that they were naked; so they sewed fig leaves together and made loincloths for themselves.
8 When they heard the sound of the LORD God walking about in the garden at the breezy time of the day,* the man and his wife hid themselves from the LORD God among the trees of the garden.
9 The LORD God then called to the man and asked him: Where are you?
10 He answered, “I heard you in the garden; but I was afraid, because I was naked, so I hid.”
11 Then God asked: Who told you that you were naked? Have you eaten from the tree of which I had forbidden you to eat?
12 The man replied, “The woman whom you put here with me—she gave me fruit from the tree, so I ate it.”
13 The LORD God then asked the woman: What is this you have done? The woman answered, “The snake tricked me, so I ate it.”
Please indicate which words you are speaking of and how they relate to your argument.

 

[chefmomster2]

OneSheep:The man saying “I want to avoid temptation, but I gave in” gives a statement of will,Those words explain the motives, but it does not explain why he made the choice he made. What is the statement he “gave in” to? What was he actually saying when he gave in to temptation? What was going on in the mind of this reasoned man as he was sinning?

He gave into temptation because of his own pride. He thought, “I am strong enough to enjoy her friendship while still avoiding sin.” He rejected the teaching of the Church that we need God’s assistance to do good things.

OS: I remember once going round and round with a guy on the question “why do people sin?” and all he could come up with was “because they think they can get away with it”.

I sympathize with him! That reason is also about pride, the idea that we have the power to hide our sins from the true Power, God. That poster, I believe, encountered the same dilemma that I have.

I see nothing beyond pride. I am not being obstinate in failing to come up with underlying reasons because I see no underlying reasons. It may come naturally to you to look for “weaknesses?” that makes one incapable of K&W, but it does not to me. I have difficulty because I simply don’t think in that way.

OS: This explains that people think they can avoid punishment, but it does not explain why they sinned.

They sinned because they thought too highly of themselves.

OS: If he does not know what was going on in his mind, then this fact only further demonstrates that he is ignorant or blind.

This seems to be a “Heads, I win. Tails, you lose.” argument. If there is an underlying cause, you claim it proves he is not K&W. If there is no cause known to the man, you claim it is a lack of insight proving he is not K&W.

OneSheep: So what was it, man, was it all of the above? Something else?

Man: Well, I’m not really sure what was going through my mind, but I guess “A” fits it best. I did not care about anything else, I just wanted that woman. I did not care about life everlasting, or my wife, or my kids, I was just caught up in the passion. Nothing else mattered. All that mattered was having an affair with her, she met my needs at the moment. I looked at the options of having the affair or not, and at that moment only the affair mattered, everything else would have to be worried about another day.

My revision:
Man: Well, I’m not really sure what was going through my mind. I did not care about what the Church had told me, I just wanted that woman my life. I did not think about life everlasting, or my wife, or my kids, I was just too caught up in myself. Nothing else mattered because I foolishly believed I could handle it on my own. All that mattered was keeping her in my life. I had decided not to have an affair, but at that moment, by having allowed my pride to weaken my resistance, I sinned grievously.

When one of your children sins against you does it damage the relationship? Or do you forgive? I can see this making sense in terms of that the person in so choosing sin is choosing from a position of lack of relationship.

Both. My son was very violent when he was a teen. He had to be hospitalized several times for my protection after his serious death threats. I stood by him. I loved him. I forgave him. Day after day after day for 10 years. I love him now as I always have. But, I will never be fully comfortable around him. We are working on it. Two years ago he actually told me he loved me. He hadn’t said that since he was 13. Things are moving in a great direction. We will find a new way to relate, but it can never be the same, despite forgiveness.

So the sin is not the problem in itself, the sin is a manifestation of lack of relationship, right? “Knowing” comes from relationship, does it not?

You’ll need to explain this further.