Hopefully in venial ways or, if mortal, with Godâs grace to have time to obtain confession before our death.So people K&W reject God because A&E were the first to do it, we all come from A&E, so its in our DNA.
Theres no escape, we all will at one time or another K&W reject God.
How would that be?
I doubt that was meant literally. Due to the sin of A&E we are all afflicted with concupiscence which leads to our sin.
Commonly used, it is stated so spontaneously without recognition of its implication that our true nature would be found in matter. Many people (most?) in secular society subscribe to this view.
A&E k&w rejected God even though they were free from concupiscence. We are baptised as babies to free us from their O.S. Yet we all at one point sin, because the effect from O.S is still in us. The same effect that A&E had when they chose to K&W reject God.
So, here we have a more specific example of what is going on in a personâs mind when she sinned. The guiding factor for her behavior was not âI can avoid getting caughtâ or âI can avoid temptationâ. The guiding factor was that she saw the food as desirable and she saw the possibility of gaining wisdom (and power). She had some fear about eating the fruit, but there was the snake (doubt) telling her that her fears were unfounded. She ate the fruit because she wanted it, plain and simple
OneSheep: So, you were not in the bedroom thinking âI can handle this on my own.â, right? You were thinking âthis is going to be goodâ, or something like that, like Eve did when she ate the fruit. Can you admit that at this moment you were doing something that you thought was very satisfying, that fulfilled a need in your life?
This is another aspect of âsinâ in general.)Do you see what I am saying about the underlying reason, at least at this level? We can move on to âprideâ and try to see where that fits in, but can you at least admit that the man wanted something that he thought was good, just like Eve did? No need to answer here, just give the manâs answer to my question above.
The second sentence was in response to my assertion that âknowingâ has to do with relationship. In the case of the human, there is a âknowingâ that we are nothing without God, that God loves us unconditionally. To me, this is a âknowingâ that comes from relationship, not just something I read in a book. Once such a K is there, I come with a spirituality of nothing but gratitude⌠unless I am caught up in despair, desire, anger, frustration, etc. In those cases, the emotion overrides the gratitude. Do I âletâ it override? Well, no, I am not thinking âI am going to allow my frustration to kick out my feeling of gratitude.â I am not thinking âI am going to get frustrated right now, just for the heck of itâ in the first place. Frustration, desire, anger, all of these are triggered responses, they are automatic. Do you agree? We do not will to get angry. The man does not will to desire an affair, the desire comes from his nature, an innate need for sex, intimacy, and perhaps freedom from what he sees as the confines of marriage (note: desire for freedom is innate, I am not saying desire for freedom from marriage is innate).
This is not a study, I had trouble finding something specific online. Yes, you are correct, they still experience emotional/spiritual pain. However, the physical phenomenon of pain for them is inaccessible, which is at least a hindrance when they are young,
The key words here were âat a time when they were trying to puzzle out some of the deeper issuesâ. If people are puzzling things out, they are not in a state of knowing, they are in a state of inquiry. If someone says âIts a mythâ and the other person believes, there is a gap in the âknowingâ.
So, they are not rejecting God, they donât know God in the first place. They are rejecting the need to know of God.
Bingo. âThe brain gets switched offâ. At least, in my observation, the part of the brain that gives hesitance to what we should know is wrong gets shut off. This is âblindnessâ. It is not âknowingly and willingly rejecting Godâ.
Yes, what is the appeal of acknowledging God if the hedonistic lifestyle is so great? This person has not suffered yet. He has a lot to learn. He does not see Godâs beneficence, he only sees something oppressive. He hasnât a clue.
Hmmm. Well, I still think it works differently in terms of causation. Revenge is in our nature, so we have a tendency to project a vengeful God. It takes forgiveness on our part to realize that God is not vengeful at all. If we forgive, we project a God who does the same. If we do not forgive, we project a God who does the same. This is what makes following the commandments to love and forgive so important! It is by practicing love that we learn that God is love, and when we practice loving and forgiving unconditionally, we project a God who does the same.
Poor guy, labels are a pain, arenât they? I am confused about your second paragraph there, can you elaborate?
Yes, he âshouldâ have these priorities, but he does not in the moment. He is blind, IMO.
Good point, but I think chefmom picked it because it is a difficult one to discuss, and that is what I asked for. Yes, the ordinary adulterer is âjust thinkingâ about having a good time; adultery is a rather brainless endeavor, but chefmom is saying that the man is a âreasoned Catholicâ all the way through, which makes it even more difficult. However, I think it is worthwhile to play out all the scenarios, in fact, it is vital practice towards understanding the human.
I never intended this to be the guiding factor in all sin. This was the manâs thinking in this instance.
I can say this: People seek the"good". This does not mean they necessarily always choose the greatest good. Choosing oneâs own good over that expressed by God is another example of pride. The Church describes the fall as arising out of pride. Eve knew that it was forbidden, but she chose the word of the snake or her own estimate of âgoodâ to take a place superior to the instruction of God.
Generally, I agree that I thought I needed her in my life. But the sin originated much earlier than at that moment. It began at the moment my pride caused me to ignore the teaching to avoid temptation.
ROFL I may just have to try this!
I canât agree that they are triggered responses, but they are unwilled emotions which are essentially neutral. They are only âgoodâ or âbadâ based upon the act that follows from them.
Such desires are natural, but there is something else that is innate, the thing that perverts our very natural desires- concupiscence, our inclination towards sin.
Not exactly.I like your story!
No, I am saying that through Baptism, Christians receive the Holy Spirit who instructs us throughout our lives increasing our knowledge as we mature in faith.
Well that was what I was trying to say using the priests words. Say like, If we read into the OT and take all literally then it would seem that God is an angry God, who only commands sacrifice and obedience from us and should we step out of line he will bring death upon us. So the people believing in the vengeful God, and never progress into forgiveness will treat their family and friends the same. (be completely obedient to my rules or Iâll disown you) which unfortunately some people do.
I like your story!
This reminds me of a different item we have discussed here about rejecting God. Your example points out the fact that we can have a mistaken image of God.
Image and reality are two different things. God can be known from the scriptures, Church teaching, the interior workings of the Holy Spirit and other true sources. Iâll call this the True God, or GOD. Then there is our own image of God which will always be incomplete since our human minds cannot fully know Him. Our image will be more or less âcorrectâ based on many factors, such as our early instruction in the faith. This image âgodâ we often confuse with GOD Himself.
If we reject a false image, such as a raging, vengeful and critical god, we are rejecting god, not GOD. This rejection is not the rejection that occurs when we sin. It is actually a positive good thing. As our knowledge and faith increase, we come to a fuller and more complete understanding of GOD. We may ultimately reject and reform this god many times throughout our maturing process. We seek Him throughout our lives.
Sin involves rejecting GOD, the actual âreal thingâ, the almighty, all-powerful, all-merciful, all-loving God. I wonât argue about the whole K&W thing here. I was reminded of this point and I wanted to post it before my feeble brain forgot it again!
No, it has been terrific!I donât understand. Are you saying we can completely understand God in this life?
I think that there are several different factors going on here.
For me the reason is concupiscence, the inclination of human beings to behave sinfully. This is a result of Original Sin. It is what we fight in order to freely demonstrate our faith.
Yes, that is true. But people do choose a âgoodâ, in that they are well-intended, blind/ignonrant as they may be to the harm of the less-good choice.
Sorry, the blog is going a little beyond where we are at the moment. We are still trying to figure out what happened in the manâs mind. Then, we can figure out why.
So, if we apply the science, the man no longer resisted temptation. He had the idea of the affair in his mind, and he was sizing it up. At some point, the desirability of the affair outweighed any resistance he had to it. âWhen I chose my good over Godâs I placed my will above Godâs. â Such was the same with Eve. She let go of the resistance, she doubted the resistance.