H
Harri_Laaksonen
Guest
I just should have pasted the original in the initial post.
- Status
D
Deacon_Joseph
Guest
Why does God allow evil in the world? I have used the argument about free will, and from that free will some people make evil in the world. I have even heard that tragedies occur so we as a community can learn to help our neighbor. Which goes back to Genesis when Cain asked of God, “Am I my brother’s keeper?” And the answer is yes, we are our brother’s keeper. But some non-believers won’t buy those responses. Does anyone have another response to this difficult question?
T
That_one_guy
Guest
Sometimes a parent must allow the child to make mistakes.It is a learning process.Mom or Dad says, "Don’t touch the stove, baby.You’ll get burned!"But, the inquisitive nature of our intellect questions ‘why?’.So, we touch the stove and get burned.Then we don’t touch the stove again.
There are, unfortunately, persons who feel a false sense of superiority by instigating the acceptance of things that we know to be wrong by using words like ‘tolerance’ and ‘acceptance’.Of course, as we mature in our walk we begin to realize these things.
But, every now and then, you must admit that you also find yourself trying to prove yourself to the world.(not fellow Christians,…but, ‘the world’)and this is where we err.
“Evil” can more easily be translated to the mundane or non-spiritual community as anything that we don’t necessarily like.
It’s an interesting thing.If you’ve ever raised a small child,and were trying to teach them to walk,you would lift them up on their unstable little legs and let them fall on their little butts.Catching them if they should fall forward to damage themselves.I see this as the “becoming as little children”.We trust our parents to not let us get hurt.But, at the same time, some times they have to allow us to make our own mistakes.This is one of the ways we learn.This falls under the ‘freewill’ which Our Father has given us.
As we all know, there are people, such as the terrorists, who sincerely believe that they are doing the right thing.And some persons who rob or steal, they justify these things in their minds before they commit the act.This does not make it acceptable to anyone but themselves.Because,(I believe) nobody really wants to believe they are evil.Except, perhaps, dysfunctional rebels.
There are situations in which “evil” seems to be; but, it accomplishes God’s Will.WE don’t like it.So, we call it evil. But, in reality it is for the greater good.
It’s sort of like the ‘prime directive’ on “Star Trek”.
I think…
D
Deacon_Joseph
Guest
I was speaking with someone that has doubts of God’s existence. I was able to explain or answer many of his questions, but one he asked I wasn’t sure about. He was asking why is there evil in the world. I told him that the reason the world isn’t perfect is because of the fall from grace by Adam and Eve. Also, I said, if everything would be perfect it would be easier to show that God exists, most wouldn’t have any doubts. He said, ‘why does God have to have us pay Him homage, why does he need that response from us?’ Anyone have any thoughts on this?
D
davidv
Guest
This topic is discussed nearly constantly on this forum.
For example check this thread: forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=291720&highlight=evil
To find other threads on this topic you can use the search function.
For example check this thread: forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=291720&highlight=evil
To find other threads on this topic you can use the search function.
B
Blade_and_Blood
Guest
Well, I could easily tell you mankind has always had that desire to worship a Higher Being for the sake of having a purpose in Life.
A more heartless person would tell you God is insecure.
Assuming this person wants to believe in God, you can say God wants to perhaps test our own faiths–you can probably use the story of Job… I like that story.
My personal response: If this person has their doubts on God, you can ask them about it. Simply show interest in their position and listen. Try to let them answer their own questions. You may lose the person in the process, but it’s usually impossible to make somebody believe in something they feel may not be there. Again, this is my personal opinion, so dismiss it if it is no option for you.
Ironically Yours, Blade and Blood
J
JP2Admirer
Guest
The struggle with evil has probably hit every Christian pretty hard at some point. I guess this is why Christ gave us the Beatitudes.
However, you might want to point him in the direction of St. Augustine’s Confessions. He struggled with evil as well, and although he was a Manichee (gnostic sect that posited God as a material being who had an opposite evil that positively existed, and matter in itself was evil.) Augustine adopted the Neo-platonic doctrine of being, which essentially was that the whole of existence is a gradation of being. The closer something approaches to God, who is Existence, the more perfect it is. The further away it is from God, the less perfect. He points out, as he said he was plagued by questions of the existence of gross creatures like worms and the like, why would God create such things? He determines that it was because the perfection of the whole requires lesser beings – as modern biology is showing. If you don’t have amoeba’s (sp) in the ocean, there is no life in the ocean. They are all interdependent.
This gradation of being also allows Augustine to determine that evil is none other than a privation of the good. Evil has no positive existence, though Aquinas points out, to our minds it has positive existence (e.g. evil is a being of reason, an 'ens rationis.) This is all very abstract, but it helped me when I was struggling over the same question.
As an example, you might point out some crime, like murder. Murder is certainly an evil, but what gives it its existence? The fact that it is the taking away of the good that is life. Thus it is a privation. Why does God allow it? I always say he is committed to our freedom. It would be easy for Him to reveal Himself to us in all His blessedness, as He is the Sovereign Good, and we would immediately be drawn to HIm. Anyone who sees goodness in itself can’t help but choose it. However, then God would have a bunch of automotons on His hands, and no one would have chosen Him for His sake, that is, nobody would love Him, at least for the right reasons.
Augustine discusses all of this in the 7th book of the Confessions (not the murder example that was off the top of my head), but in the same place he describes how matter in itself is good. He says since corruption can take place in matter that proves that there is some good in it – if it were no good at all it could not be corrupted. If it were a supreme good (e.g. immaterial like God and the angels) it could not be corrupted, so it certainly is not a supreme good. Therefore, matter is a good but not a supreme good.
This little argument helped me because it showed that matter is good, but inherently corruptible. Therefore, it seems to me that God could not create a material order without corruption, that is, corruption goes with the territory, except in the case of man. In the case of man, the form of his body (i.e. the rational soul) is immaterial, and before the fall of Adam and Eve, it somehow prevented the material side of man from being corrupted, as the soul is intricately bound to the body. Aquinas even goes so far as to say that Eden had the prerequisite material conditions that kept the elements of man in perfect balance, thus not allowing him to be corrupted. Aquinas says when man was expelled from Eden, the material elements were then not in proper balance. This is all conjecture, but at the Fall, however, the body “rebelled” and took partial control of the reason, and hence, death entered as punishment.
So, the short answer to your question is to get him to understand the neo-Platonic understanding of gradation of being. Ettienne Gilson in his Spirit of Medieval Philosophy, has a great example. He says to imagine creation as an intricate symphony, where the rising and falling of animals are like the sounds in that symphony. THe only way that symphony reaches its perfection is by the notes rising and falling as they do. The same goes for creation.
As to God “needing” worshippers, this is absolutely absurd. Aquinas points out in the Summa Contra Gentiles that God’s will is eternally of Himself. This is the object of His will, now the means to attaining that object are manifold. He could be complacent with willing Himself eternally and this would be a sufficient condition for him. But as the medieval philosophers pointed out, ‘bonum diffusivum sui’ (the good is diffusive of itself). Aquinas said that God’s essence was His existence and that he was “esse subsistens.” Creatures’ essences are distinct from their existence (what they are is distinct from that they are). This distinction between God and creatures is helpful in understanding, that God doesn’t need creatures. For he is full of His own perfection having existence in its fullest, that he does not “need” creatures as they add nothing to Him. He merely made creatures because He is good, and the good diffuses itself (ever wonder why the sex drive is so powerful, well its because we seek to share the good that we are by creating offspring.) God demands that we worship Him, not because He needs it, but because He deserves it for what He is and what He’s done for us. Just as a father deserves the respect of his children for pro-creating and caring for them.
I hope this helps, and sorry it is so long winded. It’s tough to answer such a deep question with a short response.
However, you might want to point him in the direction of St. Augustine’s Confessions. He struggled with evil as well, and although he was a Manichee (gnostic sect that posited God as a material being who had an opposite evil that positively existed, and matter in itself was evil.) Augustine adopted the Neo-platonic doctrine of being, which essentially was that the whole of existence is a gradation of being. The closer something approaches to God, who is Existence, the more perfect it is. The further away it is from God, the less perfect. He points out, as he said he was plagued by questions of the existence of gross creatures like worms and the like, why would God create such things? He determines that it was because the perfection of the whole requires lesser beings – as modern biology is showing. If you don’t have amoeba’s (sp) in the ocean, there is no life in the ocean. They are all interdependent.
This gradation of being also allows Augustine to determine that evil is none other than a privation of the good. Evil has no positive existence, though Aquinas points out, to our minds it has positive existence (e.g. evil is a being of reason, an 'ens rationis.) This is all very abstract, but it helped me when I was struggling over the same question.
As an example, you might point out some crime, like murder. Murder is certainly an evil, but what gives it its existence? The fact that it is the taking away of the good that is life. Thus it is a privation. Why does God allow it? I always say he is committed to our freedom. It would be easy for Him to reveal Himself to us in all His blessedness, as He is the Sovereign Good, and we would immediately be drawn to HIm. Anyone who sees goodness in itself can’t help but choose it. However, then God would have a bunch of automotons on His hands, and no one would have chosen Him for His sake, that is, nobody would love Him, at least for the right reasons.
Augustine discusses all of this in the 7th book of the Confessions (not the murder example that was off the top of my head), but in the same place he describes how matter in itself is good. He says since corruption can take place in matter that proves that there is some good in it – if it were no good at all it could not be corrupted. If it were a supreme good (e.g. immaterial like God and the angels) it could not be corrupted, so it certainly is not a supreme good. Therefore, matter is a good but not a supreme good.
This little argument helped me because it showed that matter is good, but inherently corruptible. Therefore, it seems to me that God could not create a material order without corruption, that is, corruption goes with the territory, except in the case of man. In the case of man, the form of his body (i.e. the rational soul) is immaterial, and before the fall of Adam and Eve, it somehow prevented the material side of man from being corrupted, as the soul is intricately bound to the body. Aquinas even goes so far as to say that Eden had the prerequisite material conditions that kept the elements of man in perfect balance, thus not allowing him to be corrupted. Aquinas says when man was expelled from Eden, the material elements were then not in proper balance. This is all conjecture, but at the Fall, however, the body “rebelled” and took partial control of the reason, and hence, death entered as punishment.
So, the short answer to your question is to get him to understand the neo-Platonic understanding of gradation of being. Ettienne Gilson in his Spirit of Medieval Philosophy, has a great example. He says to imagine creation as an intricate symphony, where the rising and falling of animals are like the sounds in that symphony. THe only way that symphony reaches its perfection is by the notes rising and falling as they do. The same goes for creation.
As to God “needing” worshippers, this is absolutely absurd. Aquinas points out in the Summa Contra Gentiles that God’s will is eternally of Himself. This is the object of His will, now the means to attaining that object are manifold. He could be complacent with willing Himself eternally and this would be a sufficient condition for him. But as the medieval philosophers pointed out, ‘bonum diffusivum sui’ (the good is diffusive of itself). Aquinas said that God’s essence was His existence and that he was “esse subsistens.” Creatures’ essences are distinct from their existence (what they are is distinct from that they are). This distinction between God and creatures is helpful in understanding, that God doesn’t need creatures. For he is full of His own perfection having existence in its fullest, that he does not “need” creatures as they add nothing to Him. He merely made creatures because He is good, and the good diffuses itself (ever wonder why the sex drive is so powerful, well its because we seek to share the good that we are by creating offspring.) God demands that we worship Him, not because He needs it, but because He deserves it for what He is and what He’s done for us. Just as a father deserves the respect of his children for pro-creating and caring for them.
I hope this helps, and sorry it is so long winded. It’s tough to answer such a deep question with a short response.
F
fhansen
Guest
As another poster said, there are many ways to explore the “problem of evil” on this forum and elsewhere. But your second question is interesting, too. Why do we pay God homage? Is He just a big egomaniac who enjoys seeing His minions bow and cower at His feet? The reason we love and worship God and the reason He wants this of us is simply because He is that worthy. To know God is to know His worth and to know His worth is to prostrate oneself before Him because His sheer presence is that overwhelming, that good, that beautiful. When creation is rightly ordered and so in proper relationship to God, it bows in awe of and love for Him-not just because it should but because it can’t do otherwise.
E
Eucharisted
Guest
God created man for Himself. He is a god, who are we to question Him? Yet He created us not out of pride but out of Mercy, that we might have Him, for God is happiness itself. Oh, it is truly merciful for Him to have created us for eternal and absolute happiness!
R
RobinSebas
Guest
Man must prostrate. If he does not prostrate before God, he will prostrate before the things that he has made.
J
jkiernan56
Guest
God does not NEED our homage. There is nothing for God to be gained. He has no need of anyone or anything. Does God want our praise? Yes but not because He is a big egotisical maniac.
As a child is in awe of their parents, so too a person who rightly understands WHO God is cannot help but be in awe of God and want to praise Him. Like birds who begin to sing when the sun comes up in the morning, to praise and honor God is what should come naturally to a person who knows God.
B
Bubba_Switzler
Guest
Evil existed before the Fall. Recall that Eve was tempted to sin by Satan who had already fallen.
F
Fran65
Guest
However, there are those who lives are full of the most horrendous suffering, who feel abandoned and look around them and see others who apparently experience little suffering and much pleasure and blessings. How do they and those who counsel them deal with that fact?
Although I am Catholic at times I struggle with what I see around me.
D
Dameedna
Guest
Funnily enough, as an athiest(agnostic), I don’t struggle with this for the most part.
Most of what has occured within human societies, is of our own making. IF there is a god(and a big if at that), then by his own design, he could not interfere, or our lives…are meaningless. We are simply robots. If we WERE just robots, why create us to believe we are making choices? Even to a lot of believers, that would seem cruel.
I think free will is a bit of an excuse with many religious concepts, but with the question of evil , I don’t think it is. We make choices …and we mess up. The ability to choose, provides us with our meaning(IE, self-awareness)… but it also makes our choices moral, not robotic.
The question is WHY? Why free will, and why morality?..That, is not answered very well by religions. So the argument moves on.
Natural disasters are a lot harder to argue. It is claimed it is the fall of man. One, might suggest…would it not be better to never “create” a free will creature, than create one knowing it would disobey and result in this life…and it’s natural evil and all it’s pain?
One choice we’ve never had, and that is…to exist at all.
The fall of man(which God would have known was going to happen) and the choice to do “something” that would end in an eternal suffering(which God would have known about) can’t be answered, to ME or most athiests by the concept of free will.
We never…chose to exist. But God CHOSE to create us, knowing what would happen.
Either God is a bit of a monster, or religion…is wrong
Or, he doesn’t exist in the first place.
Natural evil, and the so called “fall” of man is the real issue in this debate.
K
katy
Guest
First, I don’t know for sure. I have thought about this since I was about 6 and saw pics of Nazi concentration camps for the first time. This gives me over a half century of pondering, for whatever that is worth. The only answer I can see that make any sense is the Cross. God showed us how serious evil is and how much he loves us without doing much explaining. I see that as being something like when my 2 yo son had an earache and someone had to clean stuff out of it. He couldn’t understand why I was allowing that to happen. I knew it needed to be allowed but had know way to explain to him. I would have shared his pain to show him it was necessary and that I loved him. I couldn’t but God could and did.
It is difficult to know for sure the reality of other’s lives. Maybe some experience more suffering here as a mercy to be purified in this life and go straight to the heavenly banquet. Others have it easier here and will have more to answer for in the next life. I got that thought from the story of the beggar Lazarus. I think God wants us to trust him with whatever happens and that is so hard.
K
kesa82
Guest
This could be heresy , but I like my cockroach theory.
Cockroaches are ugly, cockroaches cause us problems, I guess cockroaches are bad. But obviously God created cockroaches, so cockroaches must have a GOOD, ULTIMATE, FINAL PURPOSE.
Everything will work out to the good in the end.
Now let us say, hypothetically, that you wished to explain yourself to a cockroach, or conversely, that a cockroach wished desperately to understand you.
How would you explain yourself to a cockroach? what is your mutual and common frame of reference?
I take it as a given that God probubly CANNOT explain himself to us.
We can only trust that he means well.
If we cannot, it only stands to reason that we will be miserable no matter how good things are.
If we can, then we have that consolation no matter how bad things are.
Cockroaches are ugly, cockroaches cause us problems, I guess cockroaches are bad. But obviously God created cockroaches, so cockroaches must have a GOOD, ULTIMATE, FINAL PURPOSE.
Everything will work out to the good in the end.
Now let us say, hypothetically, that you wished to explain yourself to a cockroach, or conversely, that a cockroach wished desperately to understand you.
How would you explain yourself to a cockroach? what is your mutual and common frame of reference?
I take it as a given that God probubly CANNOT explain himself to us.
We can only trust that he means well.
If we cannot, it only stands to reason that we will be miserable no matter how good things are.
If we can, then we have that consolation no matter how bad things are.
G
Geremia
Guest
He respects our freewill.
F
Fran65
Guest
My serious, limiting and lethal heart condition (a sudden death syndrome) has little to do with my freewill. If I had a choice I would not have chosen this.
I say that as a serious, faithful and devout Catholic.
G
grannymh
Guest
Dear Fran65,
Normally, I do not go near threads regarding evil in the world. But I was looking for a previous post of yours and landed here.
There is a very common misconception of free will which can cause us needless pain. This is the idea that freewill is an action which causes the result of the choice. Normally, we choose an action and carry it out. When we can’t fulfill our choice, it is understandable that we question free will. This questioning can be beneficial in the long run.
Free will is actually the ability to choose, to make any choice we wish. Freewill is not a guarantee that what we choose is actually possible. We have the free will to choose flapping our arms so that we can fly up instead of down when jumping off a building. Gravity does not change because of our free will choice. It respects our free will as we land with a thud.
In this respect, a serious heart condition or sunny health is not directly related to your freewill choice because in your situation, your ability to choose does not of itself change your
situation.
Obviously, in a different health situation where you have the ability to choose, you could choose an action which would benefit your health. You could choose to smoke or not to. You could choose to get help so you could stop smoking. You could choose to give away a nearly full pack of cigarettes-- which I did to get rid of my habit. Or you could choose to continue smoking. Each of the above examples is an action which can be carried out as the result of choice.
What is painful about free will and a lethal heart condition is that free will of itself cannot change it, even though you can make that choice. But, free will is marvelous when it comes to dealing with a lethal condition. One can say, I choose health but since health is not possible, I choose to accept my condition as part of God’s overall plan, or I choose to have a smile on my face at least three days a week, or I choose to follow doctor’s orders or I choose to give my suffering to God even though I grumble about it.
The comforting thing about the Catholic Faith is that God sees good in everything because He knows how to bring us to Himself at the end of the day.
Personally, I take comfort in knowing that God understands my whining. And I do try to use my free will to choose acceptance of God’s ways. That is very hard. Sometimes, in my heart, I have to hold on tight to the bottom of the cross and with tears blurring my vision, I look up to the face of Jesus.
Blessings
grannymh
J
jkiernan56
Guest
This posting in response to the question is broken into two parts: 2 kinds of evil, and then the WHY.
Part 1: Different kinds of evil
There are different kinds of evil according to St. Augustine in Free Choice of the Will.
Person: Please tell me: isn’t God the cause of evil?
Augustine: I will tell you once you have made clear what kind of evil you are asking about. For we use the word ‘evil’ in two senses: first when we say someone has done evil, and second when we say that someone has suffered evil.
Person: I want to know about both.
Augustine: But if you know that God is good - and it is not right to believe otherwise - then He does no evil. On the other hand, if we acknowledge that God is just - and it is impious to deny it - then He rewards the good and punishes the wicked. Those punishments are certain evils for those who suffer them. Therefore if no one is punished unjustly - and we must believe this universe is governed by divine providence - it follows that God is a cause of the SECOND kind of evil, but in no way causes the FIRST kind.
Person: Then is there some other cause of evil that God DOES NOT cause?
Augustine: There certainly is. Such evil could not occur unless someone caused it. But if you ask who that someone is, it is impossible to say. For there is no SINGLE cause of evil; rather everyone who does evil is the cause of his own evildoing. If you doubt this, recall what I said earlier: Evil deeds are punished by the justice of God. They would not be punished justly if they had not been performed voluntarily.
Part 1: Different kinds of evil
There are different kinds of evil according to St. Augustine in Free Choice of the Will.
Person: Please tell me: isn’t God the cause of evil?
Augustine: I will tell you once you have made clear what kind of evil you are asking about. For we use the word ‘evil’ in two senses: first when we say someone has done evil, and second when we say that someone has suffered evil.
Person: I want to know about both.
Augustine: But if you know that God is good - and it is not right to believe otherwise - then He does no evil. On the other hand, if we acknowledge that God is just - and it is impious to deny it - then He rewards the good and punishes the wicked. Those punishments are certain evils for those who suffer them. Therefore if no one is punished unjustly - and we must believe this universe is governed by divine providence - it follows that God is a cause of the SECOND kind of evil, but in no way causes the FIRST kind.
Person: Then is there some other cause of evil that God DOES NOT cause?
Augustine: There certainly is. Such evil could not occur unless someone caused it. But if you ask who that someone is, it is impossible to say. For there is no SINGLE cause of evil; rather everyone who does evil is the cause of his own evildoing. If you doubt this, recall what I said earlier: Evil deeds are punished by the justice of God. They would not be punished justly if they had not been performed voluntarily.
- Status