Why does God allow evil in the world?

[jkiernan56]

Part 2: Why God permits Evil

St. Augustine says there is only ONE reason God allows evil - because He is able to bring Good out of it.

God willed to give us a free-will that we might freely love God and not just be robots. He sees and knows the complete picture. All of history is eternally NOW to God. Yesterday, today, and tomorrow are all eternally NOW to God. God knew both the Good and the Evil that would come out of the gift of free will. Since I wholeheartedly agree that God only permits evil because He is able to bring good out of it, the Good that God sees and knows FAR exceeded all else. It was the cost God was willing to pay so that we could become His adopted Sons and Daughters along with Christ the eternal firstborn Son sharing the same relationship with His Father filled with the Holy Spirit.

You and I are gifts from the Father to the Son. The Son in return gives us as a gfit back to His Father as adopted children… redemed through His cross … made holy and who mirror the image of Christ in our lives … full of the Love of God who is the Holy Spirit.

To summarize my answer to the question - because of the Good that God WILL bring out of evil - a Good that God already sees and knows.

 

[D_M]

Hi,

God doesn’t permit evil; evil doesn’t really exist. Every sin that is committed against God, God takes it and works it towards His own good purpose.

We can’t always perceive what the purpose is, and are often at a loss for trying to see anything good in the kinds of great suffering that may be found in this world, although we know through the light of faith that it is being put towards a good purpose even though we can’t see/understand what that purpose always is.

I wrote an essay on this, although it was directed as a response to atheist arguments, last week, which I’ve attached to this post if anyone is interested.

God Bless,

 

[jkiernan56]

Hi,

**God doesn’t permit evil; evil doesn’t really exist. **

Every sin that is committed against God, God takes it and works it towards His own good purpose.

I can’t more strongly disagree with the first statement in bold. Evil doesn’t really exist? That sounds like something straight out of Christian Science from Mary Baker Eddy. That statement by DM is Heresy and not according to Catholic doctrine. Evil really does exist. It was Evil that crucified Christ on the Cross.

Yes, God can and does bring good out of evil. But if evil does not exist according to DM - what does God bring good out of ??? Good out of Good? No - Evil really does exist. Christ saved us on the Cross. What did He save us from? Evil

“Lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from Evil”. Our Father

 

[jkiernan56]

Free will is actually the ability to choose, to make any choice we wish. Freewill is not a guarantee that what we choose is actually possible.

This begs the question - how free is our free will? What does it really mean in the scripture that we are slaves to sin (Romans 7) and that Christ has set us free from the bondage and slavery to sin?

 

[grannymh]

This begs the question - how free is our free will? What does it really mean in the scripture that we are slaves to sin (Romans 7) and that Christ has set us free from the bondage and slavery to sin?

Dear jkiernan,

You asked the perfect question–how free is free will? May I rephrase it a little? Given that free will is the ability to choose, what inhibits or enhances it?

Unconsciousness would inhibit the use of free will. In other words, the actual freedom to use free will can depend on circumstances. Receiving Christ in the Holy Eucharist and receiving the Sacrament of Reconciliation on a monthly basis (even when there are no mortal sins) would enhance the use of free will. In other words, using the gifts of grace found in the Catholic Church, does help in making a choice easier.

Personally, I would view the references – 1. being slaves to sin (Romans 7) and 2. Christ has set us free from the bondage and slavery to sin – in the broad context of salvation history.
(note: I am not excluding the other ways of responding to these references.) Since Adam and Eve freely chose to disobey, humanity was bound (enslaved) to the consequences. The ability to choose right or wrong remained. When I was a child, we learned that Christ’s sacrifice on the cross opened the closed doors of heaven. In other words, the “bondage” was gone. The ability to choose right or wrong remains.

Further thoughts. In practical life, a lot of our choices are made by habit. I no longer have to decide which foot to use when I start walking to the fridge. Nor do I take time to choose between the gas pedal and the brake when there is a red light. A yellow light is a different story when I am in a rush.

Maybe we need to stop acting out of habit when it comes to making choices about political issues. Our ability to choose needs to be taken very seriously. Especially, when an absolute truth is at stake which is the fundamental truth that all human life is worthy of profound respect. In other words, all human life is sacred.

Blessings,
granny

 

[jkiernan56]

Since Adam and Eve freely chose to disobey, humanity was bound (enslaved) to the consequences. The ability to choose right or wrong remained.

Hi Granny, I agree that the ability to choose right or wrong remained. What I am trying to get a better grasp of are the words of St. Paul when he states:

"I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do. … For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. For what I do is not the good I want to do; no, the evil I do not want to do—this I keep on doing. Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it. " Romans 7

We do not always choose what is Good according to God (although we have the ability to make choices). I also know that only when our free will always chooses what is Good is when we will be completely FREE (as God is). Right now I am of the mind that we are not yet completely FREE although we have free will.

 

[fhansen]

. Right now I am of the mind that we are not yet completely FREE although we have free will.

I believe our role is to gain the freedom, by grace, to be able to subjugate our wills to Gods’ will, having come to recognize His perfect righteousness and the wisdom of having His will reign rather than ours.

 

[jkiernan56]

I believe our role is to gain the freedom, by grace, to be able to subjugate our wills to Gods’ will, having come to recognize His perfect righteousness and the wisdom of having His will reign rather than ours.

Yes, that is if we want to be completely free and run the race each day. Easier said than done.

 

[grannymh]

Hi Granny, I agree that the ability to choose right or wrong remained. What I am trying to get a better grasp of are the words of St. Paul when he states:

"I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do. … For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. For what I do is not the good I want to do; no, the evil I do not want to do—this I keep on doing. Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it. " Romans 7

We do not always choose what is Good according to God (although we have the ability to make choices). I also know that only when our free will always chooses what is Good is when we will be completely FREE (as God is). Right now I am of the mind that we are not yet completely FREE although we have free will.

Dear jkiernan,

I’m right there with you regarding a more personal understanding of that passage. The shorter version “the spirit is willing, but the flesh is weak” was given to me as a penance in the Sacrament of Reconciliation. Not only was I suppose to meditate on it, I had to find it.

Wish I could remember which sins prompted that penance so I could be a better help with the longer passage.
I probably was whining, again, about not being able to follow some goals which I had set – freely chosen, yet. How does that saying go – Evil exists because good men (and grannies) do nothing. Maybe Paul was referring to some general human tendencies like walking on the easy, safe path of non-action.

Blessings,
granny

 

[fhansen]

Easier said than done.

True. To be one in will with God would be to be perfected in love and apparently few of us will attain that in this life but the race is worth it.

 

[gavanhe]

Hi,

God doesn’t permit evil; evil doesn’t really exist. Every sin that is committed against God, God takes it and works it towards His own good purpose…snip…snip…
I wrote an essay on this, although it was directed as a response to atheist arguments, last week, which I’ve attached to this post if anyone is interested.

I will now take a pass on your essay!!
Gerry

 

[jkiernan56]

God doesn’t permit evil; evil doesn’t really exist. Every sin that is committed against God, God takes it and works it towards His own good purpose.

DM, I don’t think you really meant what you said that evil does not exist. More than likely, you were trying to express a greater truth about God’s power and grace to change the world. In that context, evil is like emmaciated weakling going up against a 300 lb professional wrestler. Evil cannot defeat God’s Goodness.

 

[D_M]

DM, I don’t think you really meant what you said that evil does not exist. More than likely, you were trying to express a greater truth about God’s power and grace to change the world. In that context, evil is like emmaciated weakling going up against a 300 lb professional wrestler. Evil cannot defeat God’s Goodness.

Hi jkiernan,

I certainly hope it’s not heresy! If it is, may the Lord correct me, Amen.

I do mean to express that evil doesn’t really exist, although perhaps not in the manner people would ordinarily interpret when I say so. I don’t know how to express this idea with words, although I think that the alternatives you have offered fail to capture what I mean.

The traditional understanding, as in your first post to me, is that God takes good out of evil and therefore He allows evil to exist… does that make sense though? It does in one manner, however, at another level it seems almost as though we are suggesting that God requires evil to exist in order to work a greater good, and that would seem to imply that God could not have worked that greater good unless the evil existed, and if that were true then God is impotent because then there is something He is unable to do.

God is all-good, however, we all choose to do evil. Crucifying Our Lord is an example of evil which humans have chosen to do, however, God works all things for His own good purpose, and so even though we choose to do evil, He doesn’t actually allow evil to exist, but rather He takes even our sins and works them for His own good purpose. As St Paul states:

Romans 8:28 We know that in everything God works for good with those who love him, who are called according to his purpose.

It is not that He ‘draws good out of evil’ (ie. in the sense that He needs something He doesn’t want in order to get a greater good) but rather He turns what is intended to be evil by us sinners into something which is good and never allows anything to be opposed to His purpose even if those who sinned against Him intended it to be so.

Evil doesn’t really exist then… we choose to do evil, but God doesn’t let that evil come into existence, but works it all for a good purpose which is shared by Him and His saints.

God Bless,

 

[fhansen]

Evil doesn’t really exist then… we choose to do evil, but God doesn’t let that evil come into existence, but works it all for a good purpose which is shared by Him and His saints.

God Bless,

I think what you’re getting at is the concept that evil is simply the negation or absence of good. This is a quote from the Catholic Encyclopdia under “Evil”:

**It is evident again that all evil is essentially negative and not positive; i.e. it consists not in the acquisition of anything, but in the loss or deprivation of something necessary for perfection. **

 

[joemccarron]

I would recommend first determining why evil is challenging this persons faith there are two general ways emotional and cerebral.

Emotional:
Some people who have suffered a tragedy can at times question their faith due to the evil they suffered. In that case I can say I still remember what a priest said at the funeral for my niece. He said its ok to complain to God. In fact there is a whole book of the bible that is about complaining to God- lamentations. God doesn’t mind this and indeed wants us to complain to him many prophets did this. What he doesn’t want is for us to turn away from him. I guess the impact this had on my brother would be more relevant since it was his daughter but I thought it was comforting and helpful for the situation.

Cerebral:
First don’t underestimate this influence on faith. I am quite convinced that when people think the faith is irrational this does indeed contribute if not at times solely cause them to leave. Even if they remain nominally in the faith the background belief that our faith is a bunch of mumbo jumbo can be a real friend to temptation.

If what we have is a philosophical and cerebral objection then I think it calls for a different approach. If you ask why does he think God doesn’t exist because there is evil you will likely get some sort of argument that invokes Gods omnipotence, that he is all good and the creator of everything. The arguments can be laid out different ways but what you will run into is every time you Say God wanted X (free will or whatever) therefore he had to allow that evil might happen, you will get an objection. Why couldn’t God have both if he was omnipotent.

At this point you should ask what he means by omnipotent. (BTW this is based on Alvin Plantinga’s work on this) Specifically, does he mean to say that God can do what is logically impossible? If he says yes then merely point out that, if that’s the case, the logical argument he proposes should not prevent God’s existence.

But if he says no God can’t do the logically impossible, then you have established some limits. So within those limits might God have to allow some evil in order to make the best possible world?

Free will seems to logically imply evil is allowed. This is a common point.

Another point I think is the good that comes from overcoming adversity. One thing about this approach is this argument can apply to “evils” or woes that seem unrelated to free will such as hurricanes that kill thousands etc. To the extent the person you are talking to can see how it’s at least theoretically possible that there is some good in overcoming adversity then he is left with the question how can we have adversity if everything is perfectly good? If we can’t have adversity then we can’t overcome adversity. So if we want the good that comes from overcoming adversity we can’t start with a perfectly good world.

Sorry for the long post and good luck to you.

 

[D_M]

I think what you’re getting at is the concept that evil is simply the negation or absence of good. This is a quote from the Catholic Encyclopdia under “Evil”:

**It is evident again that all evil is essentially negative and not positive; i.e. it consists not in the acquisition of anything, but in the loss or deprivation of something necessary for perfection. **

Hi Fhansen,

I fully agree that evil is the absence of good as St Augustine of Hippo claimed and which the catholic encyclopedia is repeating, although that wasn’t quite what I was getting at in my argument.

Even the absence of good, God uses for His own good purpose and in that way even though it is evil, it isn’t really evil, because God is using that absence for a good purpose.

A person who rejects God’s grace and does not have it (ie. the definition quoted above of evil) is considered to be evil, but at the same time God is still using this person to fulfill a good purpose and in that sense this person isn’t really evil in the ultimate sense of things, although she isn’t herself going to share or know that goodness that she in her sin is being used for.

Proverbs 16:4 The Lord has made everything for its purpose, even the wicked for the day of trouble.

God Bless,

 

[Matariel]

Evil is a necessary possibility because with free-will there exists two possible outcomes: good and evil.

Without free-will the universe would be stagnate, and the creatures God created could not reciprocate with love, since love must, by definition, be a free choice.

So evil was one possible outcome, and it happened.

 

[fhansen]

Hi Fhansen,

I fully agree that evil is the absence of good as St Augustine of Hippo claimed and which the catholic encyclopedia is repeating, although that wasn’t quite what I was getting at in my argument.

Even the absence of good, God uses for His own good purpose and in that way even though it is evil, it isn’t really evil, because God is using that absence for a good purpose.

A person who rejects God’s grace and does not have it (ie. the definition quoted above of evil) is considered to be evil, but at the same time God is still using this person to fulfill a good purpose and in that sense this person isn’t really evil in the ultimate sense of things, although she isn’t herself going to share or know that goodness that she in her sin is being used for.

Proverbs 16:4 The Lord has made everything for its purpose, even the wicked for the day of trouble.

God Bless,

OK, but I don’t see it as workable to say that evil doesn’t exist just because God uses it to bring about good. “God is not the author of sin”, the concept being that He allows but doesn’t create evil. And any victim of evil can tell us that it’s real. Otherwise it would seem unjustifiable for God to hate it and for His justice to address it by eternal separation from the good.

 

[jkiernan56]

Evil is a necessary possibility because with free-will there exists two possible outcomes: good and evil.

Without free-will the universe would be stagnate, and the creatures God created could not reciprocate with love, since love must, by definition, be a free choice.

So evil was one possible outcome, and it happened.

Material, you are so on with your words about free will. Isn’t it amazing that we can truly love God and each other because we do have free will … and we do have a God who wants to give us the grace to do so … !!! Thank you for your thoughts

 

[KLIBERA]

This Is The Thing: God Did Provide The Setting For 2 Choices: Good & Evil. The Eternal Lust For Power Over Another Person Is What Drives All Evil. Why Bad Things Happen To Good People–i Struggle With This Everyday.