Why does God create souls he know will wind up in hell?

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oliver109 said:
We deserve Hell if we do serious sin but it does not mean we should go to Hell without having an immense battle with God, the only souls that should be permitted to go to Hell are those who tell God personally to his face that they find the idea of Heaven tiring.
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Those who go to Hell have irreversely and definitely chosen evil. I think this parable may explain this point:
Luke 16:26 “There was a rich man who was dressed in purple and fine linen and lived in luxury every day. 20 At his gate was laid a beggar named Lazarus, covered with sores 21 and longing to eat what fell from the rich man’s table. Even the dogs came and licked his sores. 22 “The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham’s side. The rich man also died and was buried. 23 In Hades, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. 24 So he called to him, ‘Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.’ 25 “But Abraham replied, ‘Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here and you are in agony. 26 And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been set in place, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.’ 27 “He answered, ‘Then I beg you, father, send Lazarus to my family, 28 for I have five brothers. Let him warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.’ 29 “Abraham replied, ‘They have Moses and the Prophets; let them listen to them.’ 30 “‘No, father Abraham,’ he said, ‘but if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent.’ 31 “He said to him, ‘If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.’”
 
OrbisNonSufficit said:
So while non-existence is individually better than hell, objectively speaking it isn’t?
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I do not understand what you mean with “objectively”
I think that Hell is both the just punishment for the sins of the souls who are in Hell and a means through which God can lead more souls to heaven.
 
On the last day we will be out of our bodies and it will be easier to desire God, we sin because we find existence on earth tiring, I have myself sinned to pass the time, terrible I know, unspeakably bad but I did it because I was bored. In heaven we will find existence so interesting that we will never have want to sin.
 
Yeah, basically I rebelled against God, an awful thing to do but I don’t really regret doing it as I was passing the time and knew that I would never want to do such things in Heaven where the flesh is more perfect.
 
I don’t know much about Satan so I have no idea what made him want to sin, with me it was a case of feeling bored and using the time to imagine having sex with strangers, it was because I felt bored so I sinned.
 
That doesn’t work. God is under no obligation to create anyone. It is a perfectly and absolutely free gift. He would not be “stripping them of free will” if he chose not to create them. The only thing you can say is that in ways known only to him, he saw that greater good would come of allowing it than not. That’s all that can be said. Personally, I don’t see how, but the fathers relegated things to “mystery” a lot for a reason.
 
stpurl said:
That’s why there used to be things like a ‘year’s indulgence’ prayer for remission of ‘time in purgatory’ because, again, people knew eternity didn’t mean ‘not existing’ but they had not fully grasped the idea that God was not limited to Time and Space.
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It didn’t mean “a year in purgatory”, but rather, “a year’s worth of earthly penance” against the temporal punishment due to sin (which otherwise might take place in purgatory).
ThomasMT said:
Justice is what God considers just.
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No; we don’t believe that it’s just merely because “God says so”, but because it actually is just.
Mmarco said:
If God allowed Hitler to do what he did, it is because that was the best choice for the histroy of humanity. The truth is that God has always known eternally that it was the best choice for the history of humanity, and this is the reason why God created Hitler’s soul , knowing all what Hitler would have done.
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No, the Church doesn’t teach that God is creating the “best of all possible worlds” on earth. What’s “the best choice for the history of humanity” doesn’t enter into it.
 
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Gorgias said:
No; we don’t believe that it’s just merely because “God says so”, but because it actually is just.
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Really? If God says it is just, then it IS just. It didn’t occur to me to presume that we may have to independently verify the legitimacy His justice.
 
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Gorgias said:
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Mmarco:
If God allowed Hitler to do what he did, it is because that was the best choice for the histroy of humanity. The truth is that God has always known eternally that it was the best choice for the history of humanity, and this is the reason why God created Hitler’s soul , knowing all what Hitler would have done.
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No, the Church doesn’t teach that God is creating the “best of all possible worlds” on earth. What’s “the best choice for the history of humanity” doesn’t enter into it.
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I didn’t mean “the best of all possible worlds on earth”; the history of humanity includes also our eternal life in heaven, and this is what I meant.

From the Cathechism of the Catholic Church:

[313] “We know that in everything God works for good for those who love him.” The constant witness of the saints confirms this truth:

St. Catherine of Siena said to “those who are scandalized and rebel against what happens to them”: "Everything comes from love, all is ordained for the salvation of man, God does nothing without this goal in mind."181

St. Thomas More, shortly before his martyrdom, consoled his daughter: “Nothing can come but that that God wills. And I make me very sure that whatsoever that be, seem it never so bad in sight, it shall indeed be the best.”

Dame Julian of Norwich: “Here I was taught by the grace of God that I should steadfastly keep me in the faith. . . and that at the same time I should take my stand on and earnestly believe in what our Lord shewed in this time - that ‘all manner [of] thing shall be well.’”

[314] We firmly believe that God is master of the world and of its history. But the ways of his providence are often unknown to us. Only at the end, when our partial knowledge ceases, when we see God “face to face”, will we fully know the ways by which - even through the dramas of evil and sin - God has guided his creation to that definitive sabbath rest for which he created heaven and earth.
 
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I think I am in a lot of trouble. God did come to me and I did struggle for 10 years to change. I also developed a fear. I resisted changing. I didn’t even realize exactly why or what I was doing until it was too late. I was beat down and put down in my life and wound up making bad choices. God wanted to save me and I wanted that and still do but couldn’t fight off evil. I stopped doing the worst sins but had bad habits. I feared being controlled and never knew unconditional love except from my husband. I had developed protective walls and a false self, My mind is weak and I listened to lies. The Lord asked me if I wanted to be healed and I said I was afraid. I failed. One night shortly after that day the Holy Spirit departed from me and I have been suffering for 7 years now. I do want God and I do want to change but Ifear it is too late, I became self protected and self absorbed, a completely fractured person who only knew pain. I don’t want to be an evil person or who I once was but I fear I blew it I want to be good and holy and serve God but I was so foolish. Is there any help for someone like me. I dont want to be selfish anymore but my mind is negative and twisted. I’m so scared. I want Jesus and what is good. I don’t even sleep anymore. So sad and miss Jesus.
 
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There is always hope, so long as you are alive. Talk to a priest.
 
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ThomasMT said:
Really? If God says it is just, then it IS just. It didn’t occur to me to presume that we may have to independently verify the legitimacy His justice.
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It’s more subtle than that. God isn’t a tyrant, such that He says it and we must obey it. (That’s the conception of God in Islam – God as master and humans as mere servants.) In the Christian context, God is a loving Father. So, He is good, and what He says is good, and we do it because it’s good.

Subtle, yet important, difference.
Mmarco said:
I didn’t mean “the best of all possible worlds on earth”; the history of humanity includes also our eternal life in heaven, and this is what I meant.
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👍
Nevertheless, any “optimality” that we might talk about would seem to be more applicable to heaven than earth, and so, Hitler or no Hitler, God would make all things work for the good – without Him interfering or forcing actions here on earth.
 
Julius_Caesar said:
Also true for Christianity, hence Paul calling himself a slave of God.
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Do you follow the daily Mass readings? Check out what Paul says in this past Monday’s reading from Galatians:
It is written that Abraham had two sons, one by the slave woman and the other by the freeborn woman. The son of the slave woman was born naturally, the son of the freeborn through a promise.
Now this is an allegory. These women represent two covenants.
One was from Mount Sinai, bearing children for slavery;
this is Hagar. But the Jerusalem above is freeborn, and she is our mother.
… Therefore, brothers and sisters, we are children not of the slave woman but of the freeborn woman.

For freedom Christ set us free; so stand firm
and do not submit again to the yoke of slavery.
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We’re free, not slaves.

Umm… thanks for the oblique insult?

Here’s the thing: we do it out of love for God. Period, full stop. If we do it only because we’re afraid of a God who punishes offenses… then we’re slaves of a perceived tyrant. Perhaps I’m not the one who needs to rethink their perspective… 😉
 
Gorgias said:
We’re free, not slaves.
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Check Romans 6.

What then? Are we to sin because we are not under law but under grace? By no means! Do you not know that if you yield yourselves to any one as obedient slaves, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin, which leads to death, or of obedience, which leads to righteousness? But thanks be to God, that you who were once slaves of sin have become obedient from the heart to the standard of teaching to which you were committed, and, having been set free from sin, have become slaves of righteousness.
Romans 6:15‭-‬18 RSV-CI

With regards to sin, we are free. But we are slaves of God.

 
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Twisting my words again. You’re really talented!

It’s not tyranny of ‘legislation’, but of a perceived tyrant who punishes those who brook his will. If that’s your perception of God… well, then, I’ll pray that you find His love.

It’s always important to read councils in their context, and not prooftext them, as you’ve done here. In this canon, the Church is responding to those who claimed that moral activity was not a salient issue in salvation (and therefore, what was important was only believing in Jesus, but not performing the actions He commanded). In that context, there’s a distinction being drawn between “faith alone” (which needs no further action or judgment) and “faith and works” (which requires a divine judge).

That’s not the context of our discussion, and therefore, your attempt to ‘prove’ your point falls flat. (Sorry.)
 
Nah… I’ll just ignore the fallacious interpretations of these that some folks offer. 😉

The Church disagrees that “faith alone” is false and “faith and works” is true? I think you’ve twisted yourself into a pretzel so profoundly that you’re having a hard time telling ‘up’ from ‘down’, friend… 😉
 
Ahh… but that’s what the line you lifted as a prooftext from the conciliar document was talking about. 😉

It does! Now I understand that you didn’t realize the context of the conciliar citation!

… but interpreted it incorrectly. Good effort, though.
 
I keep asking that of myself, too. 🤣 ☮️

Is false. And let us look at why.
[/quote]

So… you’re saying that God is a tyrant, then? 🤔

Doesn’t mean what you think it means. You might want to read a good Scripture commentary or two…

Umm… God doesn’t “kill the soul”. (He does have the power to cast into Gehenna, though.)
 
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