Why does it say to "worship Mary" in an encyclical?

[Bradleyc]

andrea3710, by what I am reading of your comments, I think you are one very confused person. If there was no authority to interpret the scriptures, then how does one interpret it? By their own understanding of it? Wouldn’t that open up the possibility of misinterpretation?

By what authority do you interpret scriptures? how well do you know scriptures may be a better question though. Our authority is the Holy Spirit, not a mere man.
I think what you are getting at is the infallibility of the pope, is that it?

Just thought I would also mention that you only have your bible thanks to the Catholic Church. Do your research.

can you provide your research? what evidence do you have?
If the Bible is a Catholic book, why does it nowhere mention the Catholic Church? Why is there no mention of a pope, a cardinal, an archbishop, a parish priest, a nun, or a member of any other Catholic order? If the Bible is a Catholic book, why is auricular confession, indulgences, prayers to the saints, adoration of Mary, veneration of relics and images, and many other rites and ceremonies of the Catholic Church, left out of it?

If the Bible is a Catholic book, how can Catholics account for the passage, “A bishop then, must be blameless, married but once, reserved, prudent, of good conduct, hospitable, a teacher…He should rule well his own household, keeping his children under control and perfectly respectful. For if a man cannot rule his own household, how is he to take care of the church of God?” (1 Tim. 3:2, 4-5). The Catholic Church does not allow a bishop to marry, while the Bible says “he must be married.” Furthermore, if the Bible is a Catholic book, why did they write the Bible as it is, and feel the necessity of putting footnotes at the bottom of the page in effort to keep their subject from believing what is in the text?

It seems from your posts that you consider your interpretation to be the correct one. I would rather listen to the church that has produced countless saints. “by their fruits ye shall no them”.

Which saints did they produce? What is a saint? Are there saints on earth? because a church claims to produce saints based on their criteria that makes them an authority? By what fruits are you referring to?

You seem obsessed with demonic activity that maybe you should ask if you are the one being misled. You keep kicking against Jesus’ church. Jesus said that he would send the Holy Spirit to guide and protect the church and that church is the Catholic Church. Maybe you should stop kicking against it and learn what it really teaches. Put away that pride that you are showing with your comments and learn what the church really teaches.

Why would you say that it is the Catholic Church that the Holy Spirit guides? Is that why such a large percentage of Catholics support abortion, are liberal in their political views, do not live holy lives?
I grew up Catholic and I would say that I have met a very small percentage of Catholics that I would say model their lives after holy scripture…(the same hold true for many “christian denominatins”) do you model your life after God’s own heart?
ok, what does the Catholic church teach? is it prideful to follow traditions such as the Pharisees who held fast to their traditions and denied their prophets and what was written in holy Scripture?

 

[andrea3710]

andrea3710, by what I am reading of your comments, I think you are one very confused person. If there was no authority to interpret the scriptures, then how does one interpret it? By their own understanding of it? Wouldn’t that open up the possibility of misinterpretation?

Just thought I would also mention that you only have your bible thanks to the Catholic Church. Do your research. It seems from your posts that you consider your interpretation to be the correct one. I would rather listen to the church that has produced countless saints. “by their fruits ye shall no them”.

You seem obsessed with demonic activity that maybe you should ask if you are the one being misled. You keep kicking against Jesus’ church. Jesus said that he would send the Holy Spirit to guide and protect the church and that church is the Catholic Church. Maybe you should stop kicking against it and learn what it really teaches. Put away that pride that you are showing with your comments and learn what the church really teaches.

Thank you for the "nice"words. It is always like that,when one does have no answer he calls you demon obsessed but fail to see who is blinding your very own eyes so you cannot read the verses God gave you . 2 Timothy 4:3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;
2 Timothy 4:4 And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.
The Bible is inspired and has authority, not because a church declared it so, but because God made it so. God delivered it by the inspiration of the Holy Spirit and declared that it would abide forever. “All scripture is inspired of God…” (2 Tim. 3:16). “…Holy men of God spoke as they were moved by the Holy Spirit.” (2 Pet. 1:21). “Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will not pass away.” (Matt. 24:35). “The grass withered, and the flower has fallen–but the word of the Lord endures forever.” (1 Pet. 1:24-25). The Catholics are wrong, therefore, in their assumption that the Bible is authoritative only because of the Catholic Church. The Bible does not owe its existence to the Catholic Church, but to the authority, power and providence of God. It would seem unnecessary for the Catholic Church to make the boastful claim of giving the Bible to the world when both it and so-called Protestantism accept the Bible as a revelation from God. However, it is an attempt to weaken the Bible as the sole authority and to replace it with their man-made church. If it is true that we can accept the Bible only on the basis of the Catholic Church, doesn’t that make the Catholic Church superior to the Bible? This is exactly what Catholic officials want men to believe. Their only problem is that their doctrine comes from their own human reasoning rather than from God. Their logic is a classic example of their “circle reasoning.” They try to prove the Bible by the church (can accept the Bible only on the basis of the Catholic Church) and prove the church by the Bible (“has ever grounded her doctrines upon it”). Such is absurd reasoning which proves nothing. Either the New Testament is the sole authority or it is not. If it is the New Testament, it cannot be the church, and if it is the church, it cannot be the New Testament.The Roman Catholic Church was not fully developed until several hundred years after the New Testament was written. It is not the same institution as disclosed in the New Testament. The New Testament books were written by members of the Lord’s church, but they are not its author. God Himself is the author of the New Testament.The Catholic officials above claim that without the Catholic Church there would be no Bible; they argue that mankind can accept the Scriptures only on the basis of the Catholic Church which gathered the books and determined which were inspired. Surely the Catholic Church cannot claim that it gave us the Old Testament Scriptures. The Old Testament came through the Jews (God’s chosen people of old) who had the holy oracles entrusted to them. Paul said, “What advantage then remains to the Jew, or what is the use of circumcision? Much in every respect. First, indeed, because the oracles of God were entrusted to them.” (Rom. 3:1-2; see also Rom. 9:4-5; Acts 7:38).If the Bible is a Catholic book, why does it nowhere mention the Catholic Church? Why is there no mention of a pope, a cardinal, an archbishop, a parish priest, a nun, or a member of any other Catholic order? If the Bible is a Catholic book, why is auricular confession, indulgences, prayers to the saints, adoration of Mary, veneration of relics and images, and many other rites and ceremonies of the Catholic Church, left out of it?If the Bible is a Catholic book, how can Catholics account for the passage, “A bishop then, must be blameless, married but once, reserved, prudent, of good conduct, hospitable, a teacher…He should rule well his own household, keeping his children under control and perfectly respectful. For if a man cannot rule his own household, how is he to take care of the church of God?” (1 Tim. 3:2, 4-5). The Catholic Church does not allow a bishop to marry, while the Bible says “he must be married.” Furthermore, if the Bible is a Catholic book, why did they write the Bible as it is, and feel the necessity of putting footnotes at the bottom of the page in effort to keep their subject from believing what is in the text? If the Bible is a Catholic book,

* 1. Why does it condemn clerical dress? (Matt. 23:5-6).
* 2. Why does it teach against the adoration of Mary? (Luke 11:27-28).
* 3. Why does it show that all Christians are priests? (1 Pet. 2:5,9).
* 4. Why does it condemn the observance of special days? (Gal. 4:9-11).
* 5. Why does it teach that all Christians are saints? (1 Cor. 1:2).
* 6. Why does it condemn the making and adoration of images? (Ex. 20:4-5).
* 7. Why does it teach that baptism is immersion instead of pouring? (Col. 2:12).
* 8. Why does it forbid us to address religious leaders as "father"? (Matt. 23:9).
* 9. Why does it teach that Christ is the only foundation and not the apostle Peter? (1 Cor. 3:11).
* 10. Why does it teach that there is one mediator instead of many? (1 Tim. 2:5).
* 11. Why does it teach that a bishop must be a married man? (1 Tim. 3:2, 4-5).
* 12. Why is it opposed to the primacy of Peter? (Luke 22:24-27).
* 13. Why does it oppose the idea of purgatory? (Luke 16:26).
* 14. Why is it completely silent about infant baptism, instrumental music in worship, indulgences, confession to priests, the rosary, the mass, and many other things in the Catholic Church?

You have the Bible read it yourself if you are allowed by your church to do so,but saying that someone is demon obsessed for warning you is sad,read Revelation-the last book of the Bible,maybe you will call it demon possessed too for it talks about demonic powers and great trap this planet is about to fall into. Bible teaches us that our warfare is with powers of darkness… by not giving some Biblical verses that support your beliefs will fall on your head still you are ever ready to attack the very words from the Bible that you can check out for yourself…For those who are wise will see through this cunning style when one has nothing to say he attacks. The old method inquisitors used as well.

 

[Bradleyc]

Thanks for those verses, Bradley, but those DO NOT prohibit me from asking the saints in heaven to pray for me.

so am i to believe that even though scripture say not to do it, you are going to anyway?
Here are more scriptures to back it up: (can you provide ANY scripture to SUPPORT your actions?)
First of all, it is within the right of Jesus to interact with the dead, he is God, but it is not our right, scriptures WARN us from doing it:
Isaiah 8:19 When men tell you to consult mediums and spiritists, who whisper and mutter, should not a people inquire of their God? **Why consult the dead on behalf of the living? **1Ti 2:5 For God is one, **and there is one Mediator of God and of men, the Man Christ Jesus, **Heb 4:14 Since then we have a great High Priest who has passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our profession.
Heb 4:15 For we do not have a high priest who cannot be touched with the feelings of our infirmities, but was in all points tempted just as we are, yet without sin.
Heb 4:16 Therefore let us come boldly to the throne of grace,that we may obtain mercy and find grace to help in time of need.
Deu 18:11 or a charmer, or a consulter with familiar spirits, or a wizard, or one who calls to the dead.
Deu 18:12 For all that do these things are an abomination to Jehovah. And because of these abominations Jehovah your God drives them out from before you.

It is CLEAR, that scriptures warn us from talking to the dead, we are instructed to talk to ONE being only and that is Jesus Christ. Notice, that the scriptures tell us to go to Christ directly.

So, I assume that you’ve entertained the possibility that your interpretations of Scripture could be wrong?

all the time, but we are to test the scriptures within the context and to find other scriptures to see if they support on another… we are Human, we are fallable, that is why we need the Holy Spirit.

Indeed, it is, when he is speaking *ex cathedra *on the issue of faith and morals.

so that would suggest that there would be no corruption from him then? is that a true assessment?

And you still haven’t answered the question about what we do when 2 different Christians differ on their individual interpretations of Scripture?

that is why it is important to know your scripture and make sure that man and traditions do not lead you astray.

 

[andrea3710]

Thank you for the "nice"words. It is always like that,when one does have no answer he calls you demon obsessed but fail to see who is blinding your very own eyes so you cannot read the verses God gave you . 2 Timothy 4:3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;
2 Timothy 4:4 And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.
The Bible is inspired and has authority, not because a church declared it so, but because God made it so. God delivered it by the inspiration of the Holy Spirit and declared that it would abide forever. “All scripture is inspired of God…” (2 Tim. 3:16). “…Holy men of God spoke as they were moved by the Holy Spirit.” (2 Pet. 1:21). “Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will not pass away.” (Matt. 24:35). “The grass withered, and the flower has fallen–but the word of the Lord endures forever.” (1 Pet. 1:24-25). The Catholics are wrong, therefore, in their assumption that the Bible is authoritative only because of the Catholic Church. The Bible does not owe its existence to the Catholic Church, but to the authority, power and providence of God. It would seem unnecessary for the Catholic Church to make the boastful claim of giving the Bible to the world when both it and so-called Protestantism accept the Bible as a revelation from God. However, it is an attempt to weaken the Bible as the sole authority and to replace it with their man-made church. If it is true that we can accept the Bible only on the basis of the Catholic Church, doesn’t that make the Catholic Church superior to the Bible? This is exactly what Catholic officials want men to believe. Their only problem is that their doctrine comes from their own human reasoning rather than from God. Their logic is a classic example of their “circle reasoning.” They try to prove the Bible by the church (can accept the Bible only on the basis of the Catholic Church) and prove the church by the Bible (“has ever grounded her doctrines upon it”). Such is absurd reasoning which proves nothing. Either the New Testament is the sole authority or it is not. If it is the New Testament, it cannot be the church, and if it is the church, it cannot be the New Testament.The Roman Catholic Church was not fully developed until several hundred years after the New Testament was written. It is not the same institution as disclosed in the New Testament. The New Testament books were written by members of the Lord’s church, but they are not its author. God Himself is the author of the New Testament.The Catholic officials above claim that without the Catholic Church there would be no Bible; they argue that mankind can accept the Scriptures only on the basis of the Catholic Church which gathered the books and determined which were inspired. Surely the Catholic Church cannot claim that it gave us the Old Testament Scriptures. The Old Testament came through the Jews (God’s chosen people of old) who had the holy oracles entrusted to them. Paul said, “What advantage then remains to the Jew, or what is the use of circumcision? Much in every respect. First, indeed, because the oracles of God were entrusted to them.” (Rom. 3:1-2; see also Rom. 9:4-5; Acts 7:38).If the Bible is a Catholic book, why does it nowhere mention the Catholic Church? Why is there no mention of a pope, a cardinal, an archbishop, a parish priest, a nun, or a member of any other Catholic order? If the Bible is a Catholic book, why is auricular confession, indulgences, prayers to the saints, adoration of Mary, veneration of relics and images, and many other rites and ceremonies of the Catholic Church, left out of it?If the Bible is a Catholic book, how can Catholics account for the passage, “A bishop then, must be blameless, married but once, reserved, prudent, of good conduct, hospitable, a teacher…He should rule well his own household, keeping his children under control and perfectly respectful. For if a man cannot rule his own household, how is he to take care of the church of God?” (1 Tim. 3:2, 4-5). The Catholic Church does not allow a bishop to marry, while the Bible says “he must be married.” Furthermore, if the Bible is a Catholic book, why did they write the Bible as it is, and feel the necessity of putting footnotes at the bottom of the page in effort to keep their subject from believing what is in the text? If the Bible is a Catholic book,

* 1. Why does it condemn clerical dress? (Matt. 23:5-6).
* 2. Why does it teach against the adoration of Mary? (Luke 11:27-28).
* 3. Why does it show that all Christians are priests? (1 Pet. 2:5,9).
* 4. Why does it condemn the observance of special days? (Gal. 4:9-11).
* 5. Why does it teach that all Christians are saints? (1 Cor. 1:2).
* 6. Why does it condemn the making and adoration of images? (Ex. 20:4-5).
* 7. Why does it teach that baptism is immersion instead of pouring? (Col. 2:12).
* 8. Why does it forbid us to address religious leaders as "father"? (Matt. 23:9).
* 9. Why does it teach that Christ is the only foundation and not the apostle Peter? (1 Cor. 3:11).
* 10. Why does it teach that there is one mediator instead of many? (1 Tim. 2:5).
* 11. Why does it teach that a bishop must be a married man? (1 Tim. 3:2, 4-5).
* 12. Why is it opposed to the primacy of Peter? (Luke 22:24-27).
* 13. Why does it oppose the idea of purgatory? (Luke 16:26).
* 14. Why is it completely silent about infant baptism, instrumental music in worship, indulgences, confession to priests, the rosary, the mass, and many other things in the Catholic Church?

You have the Bible read it yourself if you are allowed by your church to do so,but saying that someone is demon obsessed for warning you is sad,read Revelation-the last book of the Bible,maybe you will call it demon possessed too for it talks about demonic powers and great trap this planet is about to fall into. Bible teaches us that our warfare is with powers of darkness… by not giving some Biblical verses that support your beliefs will fall on your head still you are ever ready to attack the very words from the Bible that you can check out for yourself…For those who are wise will see through this cunning style when one has nothing to say he attacks. The old method inquisitors used as well.

I see Bradleyc already spoke my mind and answered the great deal of what I too mentioned.

 

[Bradleyc]

Hi Leif,
sorry, i had to do a lot of paraphrasing, it was just too long to post the entire discussion.

This is why the prayers of those in Heaven are more potent than ours. They In Heaven, they have conquered and sit on the throne with the complete authority of Christ

Righteousnes is in scripture over 240 times, most of which are referring to people that are alive on earth… the Righteous shall inheret the kingdom of heavan, we are made righteous through Jesus Christ.
Mat 25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into everlasting life.
Rom 5:19 For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of One (Jesus) shall many be made righteous.
1Jn 2:29 If you know that He (Jesus) is righteous, you know that everyone who does righteousness has been born of Him. (saved)

there ARE clear and repeated references in the book that make clear the author is talking about saints’ authority after their deaths. For instance, Rev. 20:4-6…
The fact that these elders are holding the prayers of the saints as incense shows that there is interaction, and their role in facilitating the prayer of those on Earth. For they offer this incense to God; prayers go to God, and the elders carry the bowls.

It is not the saints who are holding our prayers, but the elders… but who or what are the elders? (and this is not suggesting that we pray to them)
You will see 24 elders and 4 beasts singing and they are holding the Golden vials that are filled with the prayers of the saints (this is not suggesting that we need to pray to them)
Could it be that the Elders are much like the Beasts who are created beings (like angels) or possibly even a chief angel: Dan 10:13 But the ruler of the kingdom of Persia withstood me twenty-one days. But lo, Michael, one of the chief rulers, came to help me; and I remained there with the kings of Persia.
The word “Chief” here comes from the Hebrew word: “presbuteros” which means: elder, of age,
a.the elder of two people
b.advanced in life, an elder, a senior
c.a term of rank or office
if you look at Revelation 8:3 that would indicate that to be the case:
Rev 8:3 And another** angel **came and stood at the altar, having a golden censer. And many incenses were given to him, so that he should offer it with the prayers of all saints on the golden altar before the throne.
AND if the Saints that Revelation 5 and 8 where in Heaven with the elders, then why do the Elders have their prayers?

As for evidence that these elders are in Heaven, the Scripture is quite clear on this point. First of all, you need to see Rev. 3:21, which says that those who overcome will receive the honor of sitting on the throne. verse is one of the last two verses of chapter 2, directly leading into the discussion of the elders. A mere 5 verses after that verse, we hear about the elders seated on the thrones.

He is talking about the elders, not the saints… The Elders are in Heaven because they are the 24ea appointed head angels. (why is there only 24ea?)

Chapter 2:26 says that he who overcomes is he who “does my will to the end.”
… We have not yet done Christ’s will to the end, so we have not yet overcome (2:26).

In Revelation 2:26 he is talking about the church in Thyatira, which is still on Earth…

The language of all the preceeding chapters leads into this description, John goes up into Heaven and there sees them around the throne in Heaven, themselves on thrones, and Jesus Himself said that they would receive authority as He did from the Father and must overcome as He did- … There is not a single reference in Revelation to them being men still on Earth; all references to them show uninhibited unity and authority with Christ the Lord.

Those are the Saints that overcame, that is what makes them saints, the people that accept the atonement are saints.

If you need additional evidence, you can see that one of these elders spoke directly with John in Heaven, another scriptural incident of direct communication between saints in Heaven and Christians on Earth (Rev. 7:13-17), in addition to that of the Transfiguration.

Saints and elders are not the same, that is why John was specific to label them differently… (see above)

Rev 11:18 And the nations were full of wrath, and Your wrath came, and the time of the judging of the dead, and to give the reward to Your servants the prophets, and to the saints, and to the ones fearing Your name, to the small and to the great, and to destroy those destroying the earth.

I have given you scriptures warning us to NOT pray to the dead:
Isaiah 8:19 When men tell you to consult mediums and spiritists, who whisper and mutter, should not a people inquire of their God? **Why consult the dead on behalf of the living? **
1Ti 2:5 **For God is one, and there is one Mediator of God and of men, the Man Christ Jesus, **
Heb 4:14 Since then we have a great High Priest who has passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our profession.
Heb 4:15 For we do not have a high priest who cannot be touched with the feelings of our infirmities, but was in all points tempted just as we are, yet without sin.
Heb 4:16 Therefore let us come boldly to the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy and find grace to help in time of need.
Deu 18:11 or a charmer, or a consulter with familiar spirits, or a wizard, or one who calls to the dead.
Deu 18:12 For all that do these things are an abomination to Jehovah. And because of these abominations Jehovah your God drives them out from before you.

It is CLEAR, that scriptures warn us from talking to the dead, we are instructed to talk to ONE being only and that is Jesus Christ.

 

[Axion]

First of all, lets have the complete quotation, not the protestant bowdlerised version:

“I urge then, first of all, that requests, prayers, intercession and thanksgiving be made for everyone - for kings, for all those in authority, that we may lead a quiet and peaceful life in all godliness and holiness. This is good and pleases God our Saviour, who wants all men to be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man, Christ Jesus.” 1Timothy 2:1-5

Jesus is the one Mediator of our salvation. But He is not our only intercessor. The whole passage above clearly indicates, Christians should pray for each other. And why is this prayer needed?

James 5: 16-18 " …The fervent prayer of a righteous person is very powerful. Elijah was a human being like us; yet he prayed earnestly that it might not rain, and for three years and six months it did not rain upon the land. Then he prayed again, and the sky gave rain and the earth produced its fruit."
Holiness strengthens prayer, so the holier and more righteous the person who prays for us, the better. Most of us don’t know an Elijah personally. That is why we ask the Heavenly Saints to share in our prayers. And as we can see from Revelation and Maccabees, they do.

Revelation 4.4: Surrounding the throne were twenty four other thrones, and seated on them were twenty four elders. They were dressed in white and had crowns of gold on their heads.
Revelation 5.8: …and the twenty four elders fell down before the Lamb. Each one had a harp and they were holding golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints.

2Maccabees 15:13-14 Judas then saw an impressive white-haired man of great dignity and authority. Onias said: “This is God’s prophet Jeremiah, who loves the Jewish people and offers many prayers for us and for Jerusalem, the holy city.”
All Christians wherever they may be, form one undivided body in Christ. All members of that body, rejoice or suffer together

1 Corinthians:12.12 For just as the body is one and has many members, **and all the members of the body, though many, are one body, so it is with Christ. 13 For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body–Jews or Greeks, slaves or free–and all were made to drink of one Spirit. 14 For the body does not consist of one member but of many…
25 that there may be no discord in the body, but that the members may have the same care for one another. 26 If one member suffers, all suffer together; if one member is honored, all rejoice together. **27 Now you are the body of Christ and individually members of it.

However some would try to divide the Body of Christ by denying that those in heaven can share the sufferings and rejoicings of fellow members of Christ’s body on earth.

 

[PRmerger]

Does that make them mediators? No it does not.Only the One without a spot,only the One who had no sin that was passed through Adam’s seed to all men and women, could be the Lamb to die for our sins and be the mediator. Nobody else can be that.I gave the texts from the Bible where Bible itself says that there is only one mediator,Jesus Christ.I do not see that God said Mary was mediator along with Jesus,do you?

Amen! Jesus Christ is our one and unique Mediator!

To some extent, however, we are all “co-mediators” with Christ. Indeed, we are commanded to be mediators by our intercessory prayers. "First of all, then, I urge that entreaties and prayers, petitions and thanksgivings, be made on behalf of all men 1 Tim. 2:1. Mary, the most Blessed Among Women, participates in this intercession most perfectly and fully.

 

[PRmerger]

By examples given you here of the teaching that is not according to Bible I would be on a high alert and think,and study to see the truth for myself not what others serve me. I really do not want to fight anyone here or play smart or proud. I really,sincerely,wish you would take the Bible and study yourself.Make notes,check what both sides tell you but let your mirror be the Bible.

Just curious, Andrea, about what your church teaches about divorce. Does it teach that if you divorce someone and marry another you’re committing adultery?

 

[PRmerger]

Well that was my question for you. If the judgment day is going to be according to the Bible when Jesus comes and if according to Catholic doctrine many are already in hell and in purgatory so then when Jesus comes are this already sentenced people to hell be raised back to life and then face the judgment day and then be judged to hell again? They were in hell without being previously judged,for I repeat the judgment day is when Jesus comes?? Please explain that to me for I do not understand.

I suggest you look to the Catechism to learn about what Catholics believe God has revealed about our judgement.

Here’s a little bit of info for you:
When we die, we undergo what is called the particular, or individual, judgment. Scripture says that “it is appointed for men to die once, and after that comes judgment” (Heb. 9:27). We are judged instantly and receive our reward, for good or ill. We know at once what our final destiny will be. At the end of time, when Jesus returns, there will come the general judgment to which the Bible refers, for example, in Matthew 25:31-32: “When the Son of man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne. Before him will be gathered all the nations, and he will separate them one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats.” In this general judgment all our sins will be publicly revealed (Luke 12:2–5).
catholic.com/library/Purgatory.asp

 

[PRmerger]

Well you are welcome to prove me something else from the Bible if you can. If there is life after death then resurrection is not required. Purgatory- for example.It is said that Jesus will come and then He will judge people.So He would raise those who are in purgatory and hell then He would judge them after years and years in hell and sand back to Hell? Where is the logic in that theory. It would look that God is confused,well He is not.So you can “yike” all you want but cannot prove your theory from the Bible.Jesus never prayed to dead people or communicated with them nor Apostles did.That would be against very Bible teaching.I just pointed out that when He talked to Elijah and Moses they were not dead people.If Bible teaches that dead do not praise God and they know nothing so could they intercede for us? Someone lies,either Catholic doctrines or the Bible. There is possibility that those who got out of their tombs when Jesus died on the cross went to heaven,but if they did they were alive then,in the body. After that point Bible never mentioned anyone went to heaven.
Think why would some of the church saints be in heaven and David would not?! For He is still dead and waits for resurrection. Acts 2:29,34 Men and brethren,let me speak freely to you of the patriarch David,that he is both dead and buried,and his tomb is with us to this day. For David did not ascend into the heavens…
Acts 13:36 For David after he had served his own generation by the will of God ,fell asleep,was buried with his fathers,and saw corruption/decay.

Andrea, as a courtesy, would you mind using paragraphs in your posts? I’m not meaning to offend, but it really helps make posts more readable.

 

[PRmerger]

My response would be all men sinned but Jesus who was that lamb without any blemish or spot. Hebrews 9;14 How much more shall the blood of Christ who through the eternal Spirit offered Himself WITHOUT SPOT TO GOD,purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God? And for this reason He is the mediator of the new covenant,by means of death,for the redemption of the transgressions under the first covenant that those who are called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance.

If Jesus had even a little sin He would not be raised from the dead and there would be no Salvation or atonement for sin for the mankind.The whole sacrificial ceremony along with the temple were shadow of what had to be in the future,everything pointed to Jesus. The lamb they would choose to sacrifice had to be without any defect.

1.John 3;5 And you know that He was manifested to take away our sins and in Him there is no sin.
1.John 2:1 My little children,these things I write to you,that you may not sin.And if anyone sins,we have an Advocate with the Father,Jesus Christ the righteous…
Bible does not mention here any other person,no Saint no Mary,only Jesus-the only door to Salvation-the only Advocate who can fight for us against Satan.

Romans 5:9,12,21 Much more then having now been justified by His blood we shall be saved from wrath THROUGH HIM.
Therefore,just as through one man sin entered the world and death through sin,and thus death spread to all men.
…even so grace might reign through righteousness to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

In whose name we pray to Father in heaven
John 16:23,24 Most assuredly ,I say to you,whatever you ask the Father in My name He will give you.Until now you have asked nothing in My name .Ask and you will receive that your joy may be full.
What a wonderful promise from our Savior. Also here He taught His desciples that we pray to Father in the name of Jesus Christ,our Advocate,Mediator,nobody else,if there was someone else He would teach us so. Mary my friend is our dear sister who had that honor to give birth to our Savior,all these who do the will of our Father in Heaven and His Son Jesus Christ are our brothers and sisters in Christ. Peter was our brother too not some superior whom we have to bow down and kiss his feet. Peter denied any such thing when people tried to praise him as someone higher than others…Do you see how different the character and doctrine is. It is so simple but people complicated it for their own purpose. Jesus and Apostles were simple men. They did not live in golden mansions,they dressed simple,they were not proud…I do not wish anyone would see me as the one who hates any religion,I really do not.If I hated you or anyone of you I would not write as much especially not after my night shift.I really care about you all and I really wish we would inherit the promised glory when our dear Jesus Savior and Prince come to take us where He is. He said that He has to go to prepare the place for us and then He shall come with His angels and take us to eternity,no more death,tears,pain…I really wish You would come directly to Jesus and believe He is there for you. Nobody loves us as much He does for who can love us more than the One who gave His life for us and who can deserve more to be called and prayed to but the One who bled for us. Amen.

Well, of course I’m not going to argue with you that Jesus was a sinner!

My point was simply that quoting the verse “ALL have sinned” as a way of proving that Mary sinned backfires on Christians. We would then have to include Jesus as a sinner. Obviously, Jesus was an exception. And, so was Mary!

 

[PRmerger]

How is that a good foreshadowing of Mary’s assumption?

It shows that Elijah was “assumed” into heaven. A foreshadowing of Mary’s assumption.

what scriptural reference do you have for this claim?

Several Bible passages offer implicit evidence that Mary was assumed into heaven. Both Enoch and Elijah were assumed into heaven (Heb. 11:5, 2 Kgs. 2:11). Also, in Matthew 27:52-53 one can read about saints whose bodies left the grave after the Resurrection of Christ. The early resurrection of these saints anticipated the rising of those who die in faith, all of who will be assumed one day to receive their glorified bodies. Belief in the assumption of Mary is simply the belief that God granted her this gift early, as he appears to have done for others in Matthew 27:52-53.

The Scriptures also promise that those who suffer with Christ will be glorified with him (Rom. 8:17), so it is fitting that she whose heart was pierced through her Son’s suffering would receive her glorification in a unique manner. Paul calls Christians “God’s co-workers” (1 Cor. 3:9), and there was no co-worker of Christ who was linked so intimately in the work of salvation as was Mary.http://www.catholic.com/thisrock/2001/0105sbs.asp

It is CLEAR, that scriptures warn us from talking to the dead, we are instructed to talk to ONE being only and that is Jesus Christ.

Ok. But those in heaven are ALIVE in Christ!

As far as the transfiguration, that was to prove to the Jews that Jesus was ABOVE moses and Elijah…

I’m not going to argue right now with you about what the purpose of the Transfiguration was–because, frankly, but with all respect, who are you? Are you infallible in your understanding of Scripture? And if we disagree, who do we turn to? (Oh, yeah, we turn to the Church, the final authority–not the Bible!)

My point is that we have an explicit example in Scripture of someone praying to those in heaven.

 

[PRmerger]

Where in scripture does it tell us that Mary lived without sin, or without blemish?

Luke 1:8, when the Angel Gabriel calls Mary “full of Grace”.

The traditional translation, “full of grace,” is better than the one found in many recent versions of the New Testament, which give something along the lines of “highly favored daughter.” Mary was indeed a highly favored daughter of God, but the Greek implies more than that (and it never mentions the word for “daughter”). The grace given to Mary is at once permanent and of a unique kind. Kecharitomene is a perfect passive participle of charitoo, meaning “to fill or endow with grace.” Since this term is in the perfect tense, it indicates that Mary was graced in the past but with continuing effects in the present. So, the grace Mary enjoyed was not a result of the angel’s visit. In fact, Catholics hold, it extended over the whole of her life, from conception onward. She was in a state of sanctifying grace from the first moment of her existence. http://forums.catholic-questions.org/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=5167079

but scriptures are pretty clear that all man have sinned

What you mean is that you’ve added *this *to Romans 3:23, “*All have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God, except for Jesus, but it does mean Mary, and we mean original sin, not actual sin, because we include infants and those children before the age of reason and those with Down syndrome when we say ALL!” * And people talk about Catholics adding to Scripture!

by what authority do you speak?

Well, when I post here, I post by my own authority. When I cite Catholic teaching, I cite the authority of Our Lord who has revealed His Word to the Church, which is the authentic guardian and interpreter of the entire deposit of faith.

 

[PRmerger]

HI PRmerger,
Can you provide scripture reference for this?

Matthew 27:52–53

Luke 16:22, 23:43;

Heb. 11:1–40;

1 Pet. 4:6)

 

[phoenix3212]

The difference is that nor Jesus nor Apostles did that and they should be the example or we may end up on the other side and share the fate of Satan and his angles.This is serious thing.
God does not change. He once said: Isaiah 8:19,20 And when they say to you,Seek those who are mediums and wizards,who whisper and mutter,should not people seek their God? Should they seek the dead on behalf of the living?
To the law and to the testimony! If they do not speak according to this word it is because there is no light in them.
Ecc 9:10 Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do,do it with thy might,for there is no work,nor device,nor knowledge,nor wisdom in the grave whither thou goest.
Psalm 115:17 The dead praise not the Lord,neither any that go down into silence.

My friend,I am directing you to Jesus,and Jesus only.You should question those who point you to anyone else.The only door to Salvation is through Christ,Our redeemer.Satan knows that fact and his only task it to make you go away from Jesus and make you require things from someone else.He wants to demean Jesus and His ever precious gift-His sacrifice.Satan will unfortunately succeed in his task by deceiving many. He will perform miracles and wonders,apparitions of the saints and Mary. But Jesus warned us about that.He said not to believe that,for Satan is not coming as Satan but as an angel of light,performing miracles to devour whom he can,even the elected ones. Satan does many things but he does not sleep and watch peacefully people thrive in relationship with God and His Son. He will try to penetrate any possible shield we may have,even the greatest of the people of the past fell in some way.Our only greatest shield is the Word of God and through it we get the wisdom of the Holy Spirit who will teach us and direct us and protect us. Jesus is the only door to knock,if you knock to any other door you may get an answer but that will be the one of a Satan covered up behind a Saint. He will give you 95% truth and the rest of it is a lie,so in general what you see it will look like the right thing but it will not be. I am not sure can you understand what I mean. The big battle is right before us,please be ready,I really do not wish you be tricked into something that will cause you loose the grace only Jesus can give. Once again-please read the Bible and grow in wisdom. My friend’s priest said to her for you is the rosary and for us-priests is the Bible. Wrong and dangerous statement. If you do not know the Bible yourself how can you know what the lie is and how can you protect yourself from being deceived? Will you truly rely on the church leader to direct you? What if he is deceived? It says in the Revelation…for they are the spirits of the demons,performing signs,which go out to the KINGS OF THE EARTH and of the WHOLE WORLD…

So you think the Catholic Church, which Christ founded and guaranteed “the gates of hell shall not prevail against,” has been deceived by Satan? That’s unfortunate. Before attacking Catholicism, please first learn what it stands for and believes. In one of your other posts you referred to Catholic “adoration of Mary” despite the fact that such adoration is explicitly forbidden by the Church as idolatry. Go, learn about Catholicism, and if you insist on attacking the Church by that point you can at least do so with integrity.

If you claim we should not seek the intercession of the saints, then it is intellectually inconsistent for you to ask friends for prayers. We ask the saints to pray for us in the same way we ask those on Earth to pray for us. It makes no difference if such individuals are physically present on Earth or not. We’re not contacting the dead; rather, we’re contacting those who are truly alive in Christ.

On another note, you seem to believe the Church has some kind of vendetta against the Bible. Do you know that the Bible itself was compiled by the Catholic Church during the Synod of Hippo? How can you say that the Church is incorrect regarding its interpretation of scripture when it decided what counted as Scripture in the first place?

I shall continue to rely and trust the infallible Church founded by God himself. I truly do appreciate your genuine concern for my spiritual life, but it does sadden me that you hold such misconceptions about Catholicism.

 

[PRmerger]

Our authority is the Holy Spirit

Which Holy Spirit do you mean, Bradley? The one that “inspired” the over 40,000 bible-believing churches, each interpreting the bible in its own way, yet claiming to be inspired by the Holy Spirit?

**taylor2 said:**Just thought I would also mention that you only have your bible thanks to the Catholic Church. Do your research.
and Bradley responded: can you provide your research? what evidence do you have?

Click here. So every single time you quote Scripture, you’re attesting to the authority of the Holy Catholic Church!

 

[PRmerger]

I am glad to see that you find God’s Word important, but i notice that scripture is not widely used by some of the Catholics defending their faith… is it because they are not familiar with scripture?

I guess the answer is some Catholics are, some are not as familiar with Scripture as they should be.

Anyone who goes to Mass at least once a week is just immersed in Scripture for an hour. So I don’t know how even a nominal Catholic wouldn’t be familiar with Scripture.

if that is true then why is it that some revert back to the teachings from Catechism (which is something we attended in grade school),

This is an odd question. Are you asking why some people leave the Catholic Church?

If we have the “authority” on scripture we should know it and know it well, would you agree?

Indeed!

Can we believe that since we were baptized as a Catholic, honor the sacraments, attend mass weekly… yet we know nothing about God’s holy word, we are NOT generous with our tithes and offerings, we do not evangelize as commanded in scripture, we don’t live holy lives… that we are going to be saved?? Just because we are Catholics we are going to be saved?

No, Bradley. There’s probably quite a few Catholics burning in hell, and quite a few Protestants alive in heaven (and praying for us, no doubt! :extrahappy.

When was this revealed to you? in Mass?

When was the fullness of faith revealed to me? Well, I’m still learning every day. And, yes, it happens at Mass. It happens most especially in the Eucharist and before the Blessed Sacrament. And during the Sacrament of Penance. During retreats. Praying with the Scriptures. Meditating on the Passion. Reciting the Rosary. Singing the Chaplet of Divine Mercy. Reading the lives of the saints. What great gifts we’ve been given as Catholics–God’s grace pouring out in oceans of love!

 

[ricko]

This is a very long thread for one just coming in. I looked through most of it and could not find any statements that anyone has actually read the encyclical from the link. I tried the link and it just goes to the Vatican site, but no letter.

I used to visit CARM, an anti-Catholic forum and the same thing came up there. I reasearched it because I had more information to go on and actually found the letter from the Pope about Mary, only the phrase with “worship” was not in the original. The anti-Catholics had added that phrase with worship and were circulating the doctored document on their web site.

This situation sounds like the same fraud going around again.

Again, has anyone actually seen the document FROM the Vatican website?

 

[PRmerger]

If the Bible is a Catholic book, why does it nowhere mention the Catholic Church?

That’s funny that you use the word “Bible” in this question. The word “Bible” is no where mentioned in Scripture, either, is it? How do you come to use that term?

Come to think of it, no where in the Bible does it tell us what books are to be placed in the Bible.

Oh! And where in Scripture does it say to go by Scripture alone?

I grew up Catholic and I would say that I have met a very small percentage of Catholics that I would say model their lives after holy scripture…(the same hold true for many “christian denominatins”)

So, what’s your point?

 

[PRmerger]

This is a very long thread for one just coming in. I looked through most of it and could not find any statements that anyone has actually read the encyclical from the link. I tried the link and it just goes to the Vatican site, but no letter.

I used to visit CARM, an anti-Catholic forum and the same thing came up there. I reasearched it because I had more information to go on and actually found the letter from the Pope about Mary, only the phrase with “worship” was not in the original. The anti-Catholics had added that phrase with worship and were circulating the doctored document on their web site.

This situation sounds like the same fraud going around again.

Again, has anyone actually seen the document FROM the Vatican website?

Yes, I read it on the Vatican website. Do a search on the website for encyclical, pius x, immaculate conception.