Why does it seem like evil is stronger than good?

[St_Francis]

So hell is not a punishment?

Hell, like many punishments, is a *consequence *of one’s actions and attitudes. When the consequence is imposed, like a jail sentence, then it is known as punishment.

If this is true, then I assume there is no suffering there then, if hell is JUST a separation from God,

Well, for one thing, separation from God is a suffering for those who have died.

then for those people, hell will basically just be an extension of their earthly lives, and if they did not suffer in their lives, why would they suffer in the afterlife…after all, they decided to live without God freely, and if no negativity came from it in their earthly lives, Im assuming it will be the same in the afterlife…why would it be any different for them?

Why would it not be different? Your logic seems odd here.

Consider this: a man kills his parents but the murder is not proved for a few years. In the meantime, he “doesn’t suffer;” he lives on his inheritance and everything is fine.

Then his guilt is discovered; he is prosecuted and sentences to prison. Now he suffers! Why? Because he has been caught and now has to face the consequences of his act.

In the same way, the bad man will suffer once he has “been caught,” tried, and sentences by God. But *God *did not make the man evil; the man *chose *to commit evil and so twist his soul to evil.

The difference between our earthly parents and God is (according to come christians), most loving parents will ALWAYS be there and wish the best for their child, no matter what they have done, or even if they have not asked for help or forgiveness…earthly parents are not concerned with that, they will always be there for their child, even if they dont ask. Plus, once we die, in Gods opinion, our chances are done, NO earthly parent would ever give any kind of ‘deadline’ after which, nothing they do will matter! I dont care if the child has been dead for 30 years, that parent would STILL forgive that child and welcome them back with open arms.

Well, that’s a little confusing… but… no. A *truly *lovng parent, in considering what is best for his child, will *set limits. *You may have met a child whose parents set no limits and let him walk all over them… like that drunk driving case where the boy was ruled to be suffering from “affluenza” and sentenced to probation after killing 4 people and injuring 2 while driving with a .24 blood alcohol level.

So, sure parents will *forgve *their children, but it is the parents’ *job *to set limits. A parent may *forgive *a child for stealing everything he owns or trying to kill him, but that does not mean that the parent has to ever let the child within arms reach of him again, does it?

This is one reason why I personally dont believe our earthly death matters that much to God, he says his love is much greater than a parent for their child, so if this is true, then God would go to even greater lengths for his children, giving someone a deadline is not something any parent would ever do.

Ahhhh, but we see that what you think makes for a good parent is not precisely accurate.

And the interactions between parents and children do reduce as time goes on. A parent can tell an adult child that he must leave the nest, right? A parent does not have to accept a child’s living off the parent forever with no good reason, does he?

In the same way, there comes a point at which things between God and a person may end, and that point is death.

At death, we leave time and enter into eternity. The feature of time is that change can occur in it–in fact, that things are constantly changing. The feature of eternity is that change does not occur–so when humans enter eternity, they cannot change. The time for their changing is over, just as a child’s time for childhood is over once the child becomes an adult.

At the moment of death, the soul goes to his particular judgement. The destination of the soul will be decided by the state of the soul, which God judges with perfect knowledge, perfect justice, and perfect mercy. IOW, the sentence will be completely fair. No one will get what they do not deserve.

A couple of points: 1. Christ also taught us while He was here. It is not as if we are asked to run blindly through this vale of tears. Bit He also knew that Some would reject His message–remeber what He told His Apostles about towns which would not listen? To leave and to shake the dust of that town from their feet.

And the second point is that this is why it is so important for us to evangelize in whatever way we can–by our actions or by our words. This is why we are supposed to be the salt of the earth, the leaven (yeast) in the dough. I can mix 1/8th teaspoon of yeast into 6 cups of flour and 2 cups of water, and the yeast will multiply and rise the dough and make a perfect loaf (if I also add salt ). Just that miniscule amount of yeast with all that dough.

It is just so much easier to attain Heaven if we actually have the “map” (knowledge) and car filled with gas (grace) that Christ gave to us!

 

[Robertanthony]

I ran across this thread this morning…and immediately thought of this discussion.

If the elderly couple in the linked thread had died, or if someone had grabbed her purse - or some other evil had befallen them - instead of someone helping them - it would have been on the news, or in the paper. But - because they were all right, because they were helped, because nothing evil occurred, The world will never hear of this.

Such good, loving, things happen millions of times every day all over the world. A person holds a door, helps an older person to their car, gets something off of a high shelf, cut the grass (without pay) of someone who can’t anymore buys a sandwich for someone hungry, gives to a charity and/or volunteers…the list goes on…

Just thought I’d share…

Peace
James

I concur. Had an interesting discussion with someone a while back, i basically told her that what you read in the paper or watch on the news is not reality. Reality is a mixture of good and bad, the media in general is a concentrated dose of everything that went wrong or that could go wrong. That’s the nature of the beast. And the lie about keeping us informed. We all know (or at least suspect) that it’s about ratings and sensationalism and very little else. There are far more concerning situations than the missing airplane from Malaysia, yet in the last couple of weeks, I could not watch CNN once without hearing about it or seeing a reporter stand on a sea map (on the floor) and have an expert tell him about this or that. Generally speaking, the media love to keep away from edifying, uplifting stuff, anything and everything that attack the value, worth or dignity of a human being is welcome with both arms and a huge grin. Don Henley even had a song about that in the 80s called Dirty Laundry. Also, I think fear sells.

 

[mikekle]

At death, we leave time and enter into eternity. The feature of time is that change can occur in it–in fact, that things are constantly changing. The feature of eternity is that change does not occur–so when humans enter eternity, they cannot change. The time for their changing is over, just as a child’s time for childhood is over once the child becomes an adult.

At the moment of death, the soul goes to his particular judgement. The destination of the soul will be decided by the state of the soul, which God judges with perfect knowledge, perfect justice, and perfect mercy. IOW, the sentence will be completely fair. No one will get what they do not deserve.

A couple of points: 1. Christ also taught us while He was here. It is not as if we are asked to run blindly through this vale of tears. Bit He also knew that Some would reject His message–remeber what He told His Apostles about towns which would not listen?

Of course change happens in the afterlife, look at the major event of when Satan fell and took 1/3 of the angels with him…this incident took ‘time’ to occur, at one moment, Satan was an angel, then at another point, he was telling God he would not serve, at ANOTHER TIME, Satan was convincing the other angels to follow him, this was a major change in the afterlife, so Im sure other changes CAN occur too.

I understand what you are saying in response to my post, but in the end it comes down to us having free will, and if it were truly free, there would be no ‘wrong choice’. It would be totally up to us if we wanted to have a relationship with our creator or not…Sure some people are going to live in the world and for the world, but that is their decision, and it is up to them how they want to live their lives, as long as they dont harm anyone else or effect someone elses will or choices, then, I dont see anything wrong with this choice.

If our ‘quality of existence’ in the afterlife solely depends on our relationship with God, then, God basically gave us ‘somewhat free’ will, in that he said, sure, go ahead and make your own choices in life, BUT, if you choose a life without me in it, you will suffer for eternity…!!! That is not free will imo.

 

[tonyrey]

Hell, like many punishments, is a *consequence *of one’s actions and attitudes. When the consequence is imposed, like a jail sentence, then it is known as punishment.

Well, for one thing, separation from God is a suffering for those who have died.

Why would it not be different? Your logic seems odd here.

Consider this: a man kills his parents but the murder is not proved for a few years. In the meantime, he “doesn’t suffer;” he lives on his inheritance and everything is fine.

Then his guilt is discovered; he is prosecuted and sentences to prison. Now he suffers! Why? Because he has been caught and now has to face the consequences of his act.

In the same way, the bad man will suffer once he has “been caught,” tried, and sentences by God. But *God *did not make the man evil; the man *chose *to commit evil and so twist his soul to evil.

Well, that’s a little confusing… but… no. A *truly *lovng parent, in considering what is best for his child, will *set limits. *You may have met a child whose parents set no limits and let him walk all over them… like that drunk driving case where the boy was ruled to be suffering from “affluenza” and sentenced to probation after killing 4 people and injuring 2 while driving with a .24 blood alcohol level.

So, sure parents will *forgve *their children, but it is the parents’ *job *to set limits. A parent may *forgive *a child for stealing everything he owns or trying to kill him, but that does not mean that the parent has to ever let the child within arms reach of him again, does it?

Ahhhh, but we see that what you think makes for a good parent is not precisely accurate.

And the interactions between parents and children do reduce as time goes on. A parent can tell an adult child that he must leave the nest, right? A parent does not have to accept a child’s living off the parent forever with no good reason, does he?

In the same way, there comes a point at which things between God and a person may end, and that point is death.

At death, we leave time and enter into eternity. The feature of time is that change can occur in it–in fact, that things are constantly changing. The feature of eternity is that change does not occur–so when humans enter eternity, they cannot change. The time for their changing is over, just as a child’s time for childhood is over once the child becomes an adult.

At the moment of death, the soul goes to his particular judgement. The destination of the soul will be decided by the state of the soul, which God judges with perfect knowledge, perfect justice, and perfect mercy. IOW, the sentence will be completely fair. No one will get what they do not deserve.

A couple of points: 1. Christ also taught us while He was here. It is not as if we are asked to run blindly through this vale of tears. Bit He also knew that Some would reject His message–remeber what He told His Apostles about towns which would not listen? To leave and to shake the dust of that town from their feet.

And the second point is that this is why it is so important for us to evangelize in whatever way we can–by our actions or by our words. This is why we are supposed to be the salt of the earth, the leaven (yeast) in the dough. I can mix 1/8th teaspoon of yeast into 6 cups of flour and 2 cups of water, and the yeast will multiply and rise the dough and make a perfect loaf (if I also add salt ). Just that miniscule amount of yeast with all that dough.

It is just so much easier to attain Heaven if we actually have the “map” (knowledge) and car filled with gas (grace) that Christ gave to us!

Inexorable logic!

 

[Charlemagne_III]

Evil is certainly destructive and self-destructive but sometimes it is the result of months or even years of meticulous planning and preparation - as in the case of the Holocaust…

Yes, certainly in the case of the holocaust there was considerable effort put into creating the mechanisms (concentration camps and gas chambers) for annihilating the Jews. But the annihilation itself was relatively easy. Had the Jews organized and fought for their lives, forming an underground and engaging in guerilla warfare, it would not have been so easy to annihilate so many of them. The Nazis had long before ceased to believe that there was any salvation for their race except by ridding themselves of the Jews. The easiest and most evil solution was the holocaust. But, as it turned out, the devouring of the Jews was almost simultaneous with the devouring of the Nazis. The illusion of the “easy way out” was really the hard way to self-destruction.

 

[tonyrey]

They are not punished for anything! They punish themselves as the result of filial ingratitude. In this world those who ignore their parents are regarded as despicable because are not grateful for the love and care bestowed on them during their childhood. Why should it be different with our Creator to whom we owe everything

Hell is a state of self-inflicted misery.

If this is true, then I assume there is no suffering there then, if hell is JUST a separation from God, then for those people, hell will basically just be an extension of their earthly lives, and if they did not suffer in their lives, why would they suffer in the afterlife…after all, they decided to live without God freely, and if no negativity came from it in their earthly lives, Im assuming it will be the same in the afterlife…why would it be any different for them?

In the afterlife we see ourselves as we really are with all our vices. We are publicly confronted with all the unnecessary suffering we have caused throughout our life on earth unable to escape into “the bliss of solitude”. Yet we are doomed to inner isolation if we alienate everyone with our pride and selfishness. Our lust for power succeeds in giving us the pleasure and satisfaction of being totally independent - at the cost of everyone else’s friendship and love. To reject God and worship ourselves is the greatest mistake we can ever make because our own imperfection will be a source of constant irritation:

Thou hast made us for thyself, and our heart is restless until it finds its rest in thee.”

St Augustine - Confessions

The difference between our earthly parents and God is (according to come christians), most loving parents will ALWAYS be there and wish the best for their child, no matter what they have done, or even if they have not asked for help or forgiveness…earthly parents are not concerned with that, they will always be there for their child, even if they dont ask. Plus, once we die, in Gods opinion, our chances are done, NO earthly parent would ever give any kind of ‘deadline’ after which, nothing they do will matter! I dont care if the child has been dead for 30 years, that parent would STILL forgive that child and welcome them back with open arms.

God’s infinite love and mercy are rejected by those who are fully determined to have their own kingdom and owe allegiance to no one.

This is one reason why I personally dont believe our earthly death matters that much to God, he says his love is much greater than a parent for their child, so if this is true, then God would go to even greater lengths for his children, giving someone a deadline is not something any parent would ever do.

There is no deadline. We never lose our free will but it is a two-edged sword. If we are capable of loving God and others forever we must also be capable of loving ourselves forever - to the exclusion of everyone else. There is plenty of evidence of diabolical evil in this world, let alone the next…

 

[St_Francis]

Of course change happens in the afterlife, look at the major event of when Satan fell and took 1/3 of the angels with him…this incident took ‘time’ to occur, at one moment, Satan was an angel, then at another point, he was telling God he would not serve, at ANOTHER TIME, Satan was convincing the other angels to follow him, this was a major change in the afterlife, so Im sure other changes CAN occur too.

Yes, but that was a special moment in eternity, like a miracle. Normally it’s not like that.

I understand what you are saying in response to my post, but in the end it comes down to us having free will, and if it were truly free, there would be no ‘wrong choice’.

Could you explain your logic here? All our actions and decisions have consequences, if only that we exclude other decisions and actions by making a choice. And with each decision we forge a path in one direction or another and that path is a certain way, which is the consequences.

Someone who chooses to be evil thinks that having to be surrounded by goodness is a bad consequence; that’s why they make the choice they do.

We choose our consequences along with the action or direction. We make that choice because we think it’s the best one, because we don’t want or want less the consequences of the other choices. A burglar chooses to burgle because he doesn’t like the consequences of working for a living sufficiently that he is willing to risk jail time to avoid it.

Things are the way they are, not consequence-free. Even those who choose to follow Christ suffer “negative consequences” like persecution and martyrdom.

It would be totally up to us if we wanted to have a relationship with our creator or not…

And is it not totally up to Him how He will react to our refusal to act justly toward Him?

Sure some people are going to live in the world and for the world, but that is their decision, and it is up to them how they want to live their lives, as long as they dont harm anyone else or effect someone elses will or choices, then, I dont see anything wrong with this choice.

But you are not in charge, are you? I see a problem with that, Joe sees another problem with it; and Sarah sees yet another problem with it–all these are mere opinions: whose opinion should count? Why should the fact that you see no problem with people taking all they have been given and giving nothing back to the One Who gave it to them have any standing?

If our ‘quality of existence’ in the afterlife solely depends on our relationship with God, then, God basically gave us ‘somewhat free’ will, in that he said, sure, go ahead and make your own choices in life, BUT, if you choose a life without me in it, you will suffer for eternity…!!! That is not free will imo.

I don’t understand your logic here. Are you saying that people should not reap consequences?

 

[Robertanthony]

If our ‘quality of existence’ in the afterlife solely depends on our relationship with God, then, God basically gave us ‘somewhat free’ will, in that he said, sure, go ahead and make your own choices in life, BUT, if you choose a life without me in it, you will suffer for eternity…!!! That is not free will imo.

I don’t understand your logic here. Are you saying that people should not reap consequences?

Human beings and angels are placed in a peculiar predicament. They’re created, had, obviously, no say in that creation, and are basically forced to love and obey their creator. God has not provided a viable alternative in the afterlife for those who don’t love him. There are people around me I can’t stand, there are personalities (esp. loud and in-your-face type) that I will do everything in my power not to be around. There are foods that disgust me, others that I find very palatable. **I’m as free not to love and obey God as you are free to not give away your wallet if a thief grabs hold of your 4 year old daughter/granddaughter and threatens to slash her throat ** That’s hardly freedom. Conclusion: God is no gentleman and handles rejection very badly. God may claim to love me, but I don’t like how that “love” manifests itself, God may be a father, but I feel he’s more a neglectful, absent father than a commited, invested father who truly cares about his child(ren). Life may be a gift, for many I’m positive it is, for me, God did give me life in the same way someone would give someone else poison. I’m not alone in that predicament, feeling life is more like something I have to endure than anything else, feeling lost, not particulalry cherished and wanted. Forums for people with social anxiety, for instance, are filled with despair. I could have written many posts myself as we share many things from our worldview to our problems relating to fellow humans. So I had no say in my being created, realized God, prescient, gave me life, I aslo realized very early that life is not for me, resent God for giving me life, actually resent God for not healing me of the emotional cancer that’s been eating me my whole life, in doing so, and since he claims to be both loving and almighty, he has officially disqualified himself as someone I would consider an ally, he’s more like an enemy, not pushing my head under water to see me drown but watching me drown nonetheless. The whole thing is wrong. Annihilation of the damned after a more or less lengthy period of punishment in a temporary hell, then the soul ceases to exist. Only God’s elects live on with their master that they love so much. Annihilation is the only reasonable option for a loving God worth his salt. I have no way of getting out of God’s gift without meeting him and spending eternity with only him on my mind (either way, heaven or hell, God occupies your mind). Annihilation would rid souls from the thought of God, rid them from God altogether. God would eventually get over having been rejected AND not having the righteous satisfaction of seeing the souls eternally miserable and tormented. Hell is about God’s satisfaction. Actually, nothing is ever about us. I was created for God’s pleasure, not for my own sake. I was created only with what I could contribute to God. To me all that is tyrannical, my father was a tyrant in his own right, but God does have tyrannical traits. Life gave me enough heartbreak, disappointment, anxiety, worry, torment, I think after having put up with God’s gift for 80 years, I should be allowed to my eternal rest, which is to see my soul, my self cease to exist. God gives us life, he seems to think we are indebted to his uncreated majesty because we had the awesome privilege of being created by his uncreated majesty. We owe him everything by simple virtue of having been created. At his core, God is both jealous and tyrannical. And narcissic (but that goes beyong the scope of this thread). Eternal punishement is simply not reasonable, the idea itself emerged from a blood-thirsty mind. Annihilation would have been a win-win alternative to the insane cruelty of hell. “If you want to live on and be eternally happy, bow to God, if you don’t wnat to bow to God for 1001 reasons, you will surely die, you will simply cease to exist”. Perfectly sensible and reasonable. God doesn’t think he can handle eternity without millions of people and angels being tortured. Let us all tell him he can. May look daunting and challenging, but it can be done. Go God!

 

[tonyrey]

Human beings and angels are placed in a peculiar predicament. They’re created, had, obviously, no say in that creation, and are basically forced to love and obey their creator.

Your implicit demand to have a choice in whether to be created is clearly absurd!

God has not provided a viable alternative in the afterlife for those who don’t love him.

Hell is a viable alternative which has its compensations.

There are people around me I can’t stand…

To expect to have everything your own way is unreasonable.

**I’m as free not to love and obey God as you are free to not give away your wallet if a thief grabs hold of your 4 year old daughter/granddaughter and threatens to slash her throat **

A peculiar analogy… Not loving God is far more like not loving your father and mother - which is cruel, callous and incurs its punishment.

That’s hardly freedom. Conclusion: God is no gentleman and handles rejection very badly.

So you expect God to ignore the needless cruelty and injustice in the world - and let evil monsters go scotfree?

God may claim to love me, but I don’t like how that “love” manifests itself, God may be a father, but I feel he’s more a neglectful, absent father than a commited, invested father who truly cares about his child(ren).

Do you expect God to treat us all like children and compel us to behave decently? Then you would complain we can’t live as we choose…

Life may be a gift, for many I’m positive it is, for me, God did give me life in the same way someone would give someone else poison.

You’re not compelled to stay alive…

I’m not alone in that predicament, feeling life is more like something I have to endure than anything else, feeling lost, not particulalry cherished and wanted.

Negativity also incurs its own punishement.

Forums for people with social anxiety, for instance, are filled with despair… So I had no say in my being created, realized God, prescient, gave me life, I aslo realized very early that life is not for me, resent God for giving me life, actually resent God for not healing me of the emotional cancer that’s been eating me my whole life, in doing so, and since he claims to be both loving and almighty, he has officially disqualified himself as someone I would consider an ally, he’s more like an enemy, not pushing my head under water to see me drown but watching me drown nonetheless. The whole thing is wrong.

The vast majority of people in this world would disagree with you.

Annihilation of the damned after a more or less lengthy period of punishment in a temporary hell, then the soul ceases to exist.

God is not a Destroyer but a Creator - and hell has its compensations…

Only God’s elects live on with their master that they love so much.

We are the ones who elect to live either for ourselves or for others. If we don’t love others we cannot love God.

Annihilation is the only reasonable option for a loving God worth his salt. I have no way of getting out of God’s gift without meeting him and spending eternity with only him on my mind (either way, heaven or hell, God occupies your mind).

On the contrary those who are in hell are obsessed with themselves and their little kingdom.

Annihilation would rid souls from the thought of God, rid them from God altogether.

Your concept of God as a detestable Being is irrational.

God would eventually get over having been rejected AND not having the righteous satisfaction of seeing the souls eternally miserable and tormented.

God has nothing to get over!

I was created only with what I could contribute to God.

Sheer nonsense! We are created to make life better for others and ourselves, not to be negative and destructive.

To me all that is tyrannical, my father was a tyrant in his own right, but God does have tyrannical traits.

Only in your imagination.

Life gave me enough heartbreak, disappointment, anxiety, worry, torment, I think after having put up with God’s gift for 80 years, I should be allowed to my eternal rest, which is to see my soul, my self cease to exist.

If you cease to exist you won’t see anything! You are also assuming you won’t be compensated for what you have had to endure…

God gives us life, he seems to think we are indebted to his uncreated majesty…

We are indebted whether you like it or not!

We owe him everything by simple virtue of having been created.

That is true.

At his core, God is both jealous and tyrannical…

Your notion of God is distorted because it is based on a jaundiced view of life.

Eternal punishement is simply not reasonable, the idea itself emerged from a blood-thirsty mind.

Only in your imagination. Don’t you think we should get what we deserve? Or is justice a human fantasy?

Annihilation would have been a win-win alternative to the insane cruelty of hell.

The only insane cruelty is to be found on this planet - and perhaps on other planets - in the way people exploit, enslave, torture and murder their brothers and sisters.

“If you want to live on and be eternally happy, bow to God, if you don’t wnat to bow to God for 1001 reasons, you will surely die, you will simply cease to exist”.
Perfectly sensible and reasonable.

Entirely reasonable - for a nihilist…

God doesn’t think he can handle eternity without millions of people and angels being tortured. Let us all tell him he can. May look daunting and challenging, but it can be done. Go God!

You are obviously deriving much pleasure and satisfaction from your diatribe but it is directed at an imaginary and ludricrous caricature of the Creator. It is not evil or pernicious because it is so irrational!

I wish you well.

 

[ChevalierdeJohn]

So hell is not a punishment? If this is true, then I assume there is no suffering there then, if hell is JUST a separation from God, then for those people, hell will basically just be an extension of their earthly lives,

This is like saying, if I offer someone the chance not to have their arms and legs hacked off, and they refuse it, and choose to have their limbs hacked off, they will not suffer.

You are misconstruing what completely informed and absolute separation from God is. Nobody in this world suffers anything close to that. It is no more an extension of earthly life than is Heaven (which is not at all an ‘extension’ of anything.)

Hell is not a punishment. The purpose of punishment is to teach a lesson. There is no lesson to be learned from Hell, because there is nothing “after” Hell. Perhaps the difficulty is in wrapping your mind around the concept of “eternity”.

 

[ChevalierdeJohn]

There are many good replies to this question here, worthy of careful reflection. However it ought to be pointed out that one possible answer to “Why does it seem evil is stronger than good,” is “You obviously don’t have a clue what ‘stronger’ means.”

This isn’t even a comparison that can be made. By its nature, by definition, “evil” cannot be “stronger” than “good”, since “stronger” in this useage obviously is the preferred option.

Any time you find yourself making an argument that “evil” is the absolutely, objectively preferred option over “good”, you’ve mixed up your definitions.

 

[hakop]

God is just and perfect in all His ways. We cannot possibly fathom or understand His infinitely good and righteous ways. What is of importance, is we have a choice on whom we will be yoked to and to serve. Either the dark and wretched evil one, which leads to eternal damnation, or the righteous, kind,merciful, glorious and almighty One, which leads to eternal delight and pleasing things.
What we are talking here, is immortality. If we decide to neglect the Father and His gift of immortality through Christ our Lord, then we have shunned Him and have made a very lowly and weak and unfathomably bad choice. Now many men and women have done just this, and they will have to reap the consequences of their choices in this earthen life. They get immortality too, but since they didn’t walk the good and narrow and true path of salvation and obedience, meriting through Christ our Lord eternal happiness, then realize that God does not wish for them to enter into eternal bliss and happiness, what good things have they done towards God by being disobedient towards Him? What merit could they possibly have conceived in order to achieve immortal and eternal bliss by turning their backs towards Him? No, no, they righteously earn what their actions and rejection of Christ on earth gives them, eternal condemnation, by refusing what to earn by Jesus Christ’s sufferings and rejecting His holy redeeming and righteous ways and teachings, they earn for themselves what is rightfully theirs, the condemnation and result of their choices.

 

[VincentChristop]

Anymore I feel like evil just rules the world and that God either doesn’t care or isn’t powerful enough to stop it. I honestly don’t understand why God even allows evil to exist in the first place. Is there any reason for evil? Also if God is the supreme being why didn’t he just stop satan in the first place and annihilate him? I know it’s probably out of love for him, but it seems weak and lazy to me to allow evil to thrive. I want my God to be a warrior fighting battles for us but instead it seems like he’s just sitting back letting the devil win until the final trumpet blast which seems unfair to me. But does this mean God is lazy or is Satan stronger than God (on earth at least I know that when the world ends he will be defeated)

Evil rules the world because man’s desires are strong. We have limited beliefs which makes it hard for us to fine peace with the world we live in today. We strive for our desires when the desires that have been created through the deception of man will never grant us peace.

God allows everything. Good or Bad. You are punishing yourself by that way of thinking.

God does not punish the world. The world punishes each other.

 

[Robertanthony]

This is like saying, if I offer someone the chance not to have their arms and legs hacked off, and they refuse it, and choose to have their limbs hacked off, they will not suffer.

You are misconstruing what completely informed and absolute separation from God is. Nobody in this world suffers anything close to that. It is no more an extension of earthly life than is Heaven (which is not at all an ‘extension’ of anything.)

Hell is not a punishment. The purpose of punishment is to teach a lesson. There is no lesson to be learned from Hell, because there is nothing “after” Hell. Perhaps the difficulty is in wrapping your mind around the concept of “eternity”.

Yes hell is a punishment. A perfectly reasonable eternal punishment for people who lived a ludicrous number of years compared to eternity. You can tell the idea of hell came from the loving heart of a father. Joking aside, hell is indeed a punishment. I may be wrong but i think hell is there as part of God’s retributive justice, i.e. punishing for the sake of punishing, with no intention to teach a lesson, apart from “God will not be mocked”. God I wish I had God’s self esteem. God’s love of his own justice overrides the happiness of millions of his creatures. He’s perfect in all his ways. Eternal hell was a grand idea. I’d rather not exist, hate life, so by extension I hate the giver of life, but rather than let me forget all about him when I die, God will be constantly on my mind throughout eternity. You can’t get more oppressive than that. Stuck with God, no escape possible. I’M truly blessed and lucky.

 

[Robertanthony]

God is just and perfect in all His ways. We cannot possibly fathom or understand His infinitely good and righteous ways. What is of importance, is we have a choice on whom we will be yoked to and to serve. Either the dark and wretched evil one, which leads to eternal damnation, or the righteous, kind,merciful, glorious and almighty One, which leads to eternal delight and pleasing things.
What we are talking here, is immortality. If we decide to neglect the Father and His gift of immortality through Christ our Lord, then we have shunned Him and have made a very lowly and weak and unfathomably bad choice. Now many men and women have done just this, and they will have to reap the consequences of their choices in this earthen life. They get immortality too, but since they didn’t walk the good and narrow and true path of salvation and obedience, meriting through Christ our Lord eternal happiness, ** then realize that God does not wish for them to enter into eternal bliss and happiness,** what good things have they done towards God by being disobedient towards Him? What merit could they possibly have conceived in order to achieve immortal and eternal bliss by turning their backs towards Him? No, no, they righteously earn what their actions and rejection of Christ on earth gives them, eternal condemnation, by refusing what to earn by Jesus Christ’s sufferings and rejecting His holy redeeming and righteous ways and teachings, they earn for themselves what is rightfully theirs, the condemnation and result of their choices.

I didn’t think there was anyone on this forum who could very plainly say that God does cast people out into outer darkness. God himself keeps the fires of hell lit throughout eternity. Some seem to think hell happens in spite of God. In his love and magnanimity, he sustains the damned so that they can never forget the loving father they dared to not like.

 

[Robertanthony]

Your implicit demand to have a choice in whether to be created is clearly absurd!
Hell is a viable alternative which has its compensations.
To expect to have everything your own way is unreasonable.

A peculiar analogy… Not loving God is far more like not loving your father and mother - which is cruel, callous and incurs its punishment.
So you expect God to ignore the needless cruelty and injustice in the world - and let evil monsters go scotfree?

Do you expect God to treat us all like children and compel us to behave decently? Then you would complain we can’t live as we choose…

You’re not compelled to stay alive…
Negativity also incurs its own punishement.
The vast majority of people in this world would disagree with you.
God is not a Destroyer but a Creator - and hell has its compensations…
We are the ones who elect to live either for ourselves or for others. If we don’t love others we cannot love God.

On the contrary those who are in hell are obsessed with themselves and their little kingdom.
Your concept of God as a detestable Being is irrational.
God has nothing to get over!Sheer nonsense! We are created to make life better for others and ourselves, not to be negative and destructive.
Only in your imagination.
If you cease to exist you won’t see anything! You are also assuming you won’t be compensated for what you have had to endure…

We are indebted whether you like it or not!
That is true.
Your notion of God is distorted because it is based on a jaundiced view of life.
Only in your imagination. Don’t you think we should get what we deserve? Or is justice a human fantasy?

The only insane cruelty is to be found on this planet - and perhaps on other planets - in the way people exploit, enslave, torture and murder their brothers and sisters.
Entirely reasonable - for a nihilist…

You are obviously deriving much pleasure and satisfaction from your diatribe but it is directed at an imaginary and ludricrous caricature of the Creator. It is not evil or pernicious because it is so irrational!

I wish you well.

Thanks for your sympathy. Life is not for me, hate life, hate the giver of life. However you want to misrepresent what I’m saying, it is satanic of God to give life to someone like me, knowing the whole of their life will be lived in torment, fear, anxiety, despair, rage, and a desire to not be. God is prescient, as you know, so I assume you understand how convinced I am that he loves me for giving me life. If it had been up to Satan, i wouldn’t be alive. I wish I could go to sleep and never ever have to think about God, like you forget a nightmare. But none of these things will break through to that impenetrable shield of yours made up of the “loving and perfect God” propaganda. Since God is loving and perfect, then it follows that Robertanthony is necessarily wrong, has got everything wrong. If you think raw snake is a delicacy, you’ll probably have a hard time wrapping your mind around the fact that not everyone shares your peculiar taste. Cursed be the time in eternity when I entered God’s loving mind*. I am trapped. Thank you God.

*That’s a metaphor. But think about all the time “perfect” God had to come to his senses and realize creating me was cruel, unnecessary and stupid. God is so intense. Such a drama queen.

 

[tonyrey]

Your implicit demand to have a choice in whether to be created is clearly absurd!
Hell is a viable alternative which has its compensations.
To expect to have everything your own way is unreasonable.

1. Do you hate the man and woman who brought you into the world?
2. Do you hate yourself?
3. Do you hate **everything **that has happened to you?
4. Do you begrudge the gift of life to everyone else?
5. Do you see no good in the world at all?

However you want to misrepresent what I’m saying, it is satanic of God to give life to someone like me, knowing the whole of their life will be lived in torment, fear, anxiety, despair, rage, and a desire to not be.

1. Do you think you’re not responsible for any of your misfortunes?
2. Do you think you have been compelled to be tormented, fearful, anxious, despairing and negative throughout the whole of your life?

God is prescient, as you know, so I assume you understand how convinced I am that he loves me for giving me life. If it had been up to Satan, i wouldn’t be alive. I wish I could go to sleep and never ever have to think about God, like you forget a nightmare. But none of these things will break through to that impenetrable shield of yours made up of the “loving and perfect God” propaganda.

“propaganda” begs the question! With equal facility it could be said that you have an impenetrable shield of anti-God doctrine and propaganda.
8. Are you compelled to think about a God you don’t believe in?!

Since God is loving and perfect, then it follows that Robertanthony is necessarily wrong, has got everything wrong. If you think raw snake is a delicacy, you’ll probably have a hard time wrapping your mind around the fact that not everyone shares your peculiar taste. Cursed be the time in eternity when I entered God’s loving mind*. I am trapped. Thank you God.

Your irony merely reflects your irrational venom and bitterness.
9. What is the point of cursing a fantasy?

*That’s a metaphor. But think about all the time “perfect” God had to come to his senses and realize creating me was cruel, unnecessary and stupid. God is so intense. Such a drama queen.

1. Why bother to vent your spleen on a Catholic forum?

 

[St_Francis]

Robert Anthony,
You are like a person who is very ill but doesn’t know it, and who therefore refuses medical help. You claim the Doctor is no more than a sadist who lies to people so he can torture them.

Christ is a doctor of the soul. Yes, the treatment for a soul which is ill is very painful, but it has as its purpose the restoration to health.

You refuse God because He did not do what you wanted Him to do. That would be like a man who needs a transplant complaining because the doctor wouldn’t cure him by giving him pills, only by subjecting him to an operation.

And to be honest, with what you have described about the state of your mind towards God, I would not be surprised if you have not been seriously affected by an infection of the soul caused by demons. You know the demons can influence our imaginations, and if we fall into that trap, we can end up seeing things in a very skewed way, as if we wore someone else’s glasses for a while.

If you wanted to feel better, I would suggest that you find a really good priest, possibly one accustomed to helping people with strong demonic temptations, a priest who could help you learn to fight against these temptations and overcome the sorrow you feel about your life.

 

[Robertanthony]

Robert Anthony,
You are like a person who is very ill but doesn’t know it, and who therefore refuses medical help. You claim the Doctor is no more than a sadist who lies to people so he can torture them.

Christ is a doctor of the soul. Yes, the treatment for a soul which is ill is very painful, but it has as its purpose the restoration to health.

You refuse God because He did not do what you wanted Him to do. That would be like a man who needs a transplant complaining because the doctor wouldn’t cure him by giving him pills, only by subjecting him to an operation.

And to be honest, with what you have described about the state of your mind towards God, I would not be surprised if you have not been seriously affected by an infection of the soul caused by demons. You know the demons can influence our imaginations, and if we fall into that trap, we can end up seeing things in a very skewed way, as if we wore someone else’s glasses for a while.

If you wanted to feel better, I would suggest that you find a really good priest, possibly one accustomed to helping people with strong demonic temptations, a priest who could help you learn to fight against these temptations and overcome the sorrow you feel about your life.

Spot on about every single thing. I did dabble in the occult, i tend to be hot or cold with people, same with God, I’ve always been angry with God, but “angry” does not begin to tell what it felt like when i realized God wasn’t going to come thru the way I’d expected and dreamed he would. Year was 1997. But let me make it clear, there is some kind of curse on my stupid life, i’ve known life wasn’t for me for a long time. No potential, a blocked future, bleak future, anxiety, always battling despair, “more loneliness than any man can bear”, especially in my teens. Not cut out for life. Pleas for help ignored by our loving God. Jesus said it best, sometimes it’s best not to be born or not be created. My dad was/is a religious nut, I’ve been around priests. Winning is what I need, for things to look up, for this curse to be lifted, but no matter how well things could go, I’ll always remember two things 1-the past 2-that God is the God of Job. Money is the only thing that can free me to the extent where i want to be free. Without money, no matter how much God loves you and calls you blessed on Sunday, when Monday comes around, back to boring job and the absence of a temporal future. The glorious suck-it-up-now-live-it-up-in-heaven. I’m basically just telling God in no uncertain terms jus what i think of his gift of life, it’s certainly not a “gift” the way sane people view what a gift is. A poisoned gift. But it’s maddening to think i did not have to exist*, it’s not I would have missed out on anything, of course not having existed it wouldn’t have mattered anyway. I think God started the ball rolling with my creation, and Satan or other demon(s) took over where God had left off. I feel good about the thought of not existing, if God had a heart he’d have 2nd thoughts about my creation, but if he can live with the thought of damned souls trapped in hell for eternity, I’m sure he can handle my misery and despair. Bu there is no way for me, if i take up God, I will commit a social suicide and lose the bit of social acceptance I have managed to secure for myself at my work. Robertanthony is not going to revisit the dark places of the past and has his herat trampled underfoot again. But as Tony implies, I had everything going for me at birth, God has been very gracious and liberal with me, if i’m feeling the way I feel, it’s nobody’s fault but mine. The best solution is to not exist, but here I am, so I am screwed. But sin does make life livable, so thank God for sin.

*And people die everyday who want nothing but to live. God is glorious. A God of the absurd. He likes to frustrate some people, give them veggies when they’re meat lovers, and meat when they’re vegans. Perfect and loving? No way.

 

[Robertanthony]

1. Do you hate the man and woman who brought you into the world?
2. Do you hate yourself?
3. Do you hate **everything **that has happened to you?
4. Do you begrudge the gift of life to everyone else?
5. Do you see no good in the world at all?
6. Do you think you’re not responsible for any of your misfortunes?
7. Do you think you have been compelled to be tormented, fearful, anxious, despairing and negative throughout the whole of your life?
   “propaganda” begs the question! With equal facility it could be said that you have an impenetrable shield of anti-God doctrine and propaganda.
8. Are you compelled to think about a God you don’t believe in?!
   Your irony merely reflects your irrational venom and bitterness.
9. What is the point of cursing a fantasy?
10. Why bother to vent your spleen on a Catholic forum?

You’re obviously much more skilled thanI am at editing posts, so this format is easier for me.
1- Objectively, my parents are two losers who have essentilly failed their marriage, failed at being parents, failed at instilling in us a love of God (1/2 of their offspring are hardcore atheists), failed at raising us to be mentally balanced, happy productive members of society, failed to provide for us a nurturing, safe, stimulating and loving environment. Everytime I see them/hear them, which is infrequently, i am reminded that they are the unfortunate reasons i am here. If you define love by willing someone 's salvation, then i love them. I go thru the motion: flowers for mother’s day, staying polite, kiss when I see her, essentially faking my way through it. But i never lose sight of the fact that i had to endure being me for 40 odd years for a single act of procreation. Dad is half crazy nowadays, small talk always, I listen to him saying how politicianss are corrupt, how the 9/11 bombing was an inside job, and other nonsense. I’m being a good little boy just like God demands of me.

2- Being me has brought essentially only bad things. I’m a stupid loser with adhd, brain incapable of learning, forget about being good at a job and being competent, so yes I hate myself. I am ashamed of who I am and wish I wasn’t around.

3- Nothing is quite right about anything my life. Nothing brings me unadulterated pride and satisfaction. Money would have made things right. But from God’s standpoint, giving me money would lift most of the weight on my life, so that would kind of defeat his initial purpose.

4-Non

5-Au contraire. The world is an awesome place. Awesome. Only caveat: awesome if/when you are properly equipped. An adhd introvert wth a slow, inefficient brain does not qualify for “properly equipped”. I suck at life. Suck at pretty much evevrything thta counts.

6-I honestly think i did the best i could given the lovely family environment i had, the way i was brought up and the cheap, subpar material which God created me with. Give me Jesus’ grey matter, and I’m not where I am right now. promise.

7-I’m anxious by nature, temperament, for some reaosn I’m not popular, never been an all out outcast, never been popular either. Deep seated inferiority, inadequacy and shame have pretty much clipped my wings. Life was spent fearing others and the future. I knew life was gonna crush me given my lack of potential, i had not much going for me. I knew everyone was going to make it somehow, build great lives for themselves, build a little fortune, have fulfilling careers, i knew i was gonna be the dumb loser who is left behind with a crummy job. God is so good. I feel so cherished by God.

8- i believe in the existence of God i don’t think God is loving or perfect, which places me on equal footing with the devil! I’m cheaply made, I tend to obsess over things, I could not stop thinking about God if I wanted to. Unconsciously, i hope God will come thru powerfully one day and change my life in a good way, not because he is likely to do it, but simply because I always had/have to cling to different ideas and hopes to keep me from falling into despair. I’m superstitious in that way, i suppose.

9-I curse God who created me the way you would give vinegar to someone who is parched. I don’t care how you slice it, you don’t do it out of sheer goodness for the sake of the other. I’m like a farmer needing additional manpower and procreating for that reason. It’s not about the baby. Same with me, if God allows a miserable human being to be created, he certainly doesn’t do it for the sake or the good of the person.I can no longer fake loving God and keeping the rage in check, God was cruel enough to let me be born an inferior man destined for misery down here, but he also failed to come thru when it would have been very easy, child play easy for him to come thru. But God revels in things being hard and tragic.

10-Which prophet (Jeremiah?) felt like the word of God was like a fire, he felt compelled to speak it even though he knew he was going to get negative feedback from people. As someoen with adhd, wordiness is a problem. Perhaps my magical thinking makes me think someone here will offer an explanation, i will receive an epiphany etc. Perhaps i want to challenge people’s ideas about God. I’d rather not discuss with my mom what i feel about her and her giving me life. A forum is best for me because writing stuff gives me time to think, i don’t have to come up with something on the spot like when you see people face to face. An atheist forum? I’M not an atheist. Forum for God haters? I hate God, but i’m not one-dimensional, there are things about theology, morality etc. etc. that i like to discuss and see discussed. Plus there are awesome people here. But not feeling would be awesome. LIfe can freaking crush you. What a female dog(from the saying "life’s a *****)).