Why does the Church make unneccesary rules that just creat more challenges or reasons to go to hell?

[mesl4]

What led me to post here is the “Holy Day of Obligation” or “Sunday Obligation” thing, but there are many other things the Church imposes on people the seems like what Jesus criticized the Pharisees for doing (making 600+ laws to th original Mosaic Law and 10 Commandments). It was as St. Paul explained in Romans 7:6-13, (and continued through ch 8:17) that the law produced in him sinful desires (which I guess he says was good in that it put him to death so he could be made alive in Christ and live sinlessly).

But if per 7:8, apart from the law sin is dead, why do we want a law?

What does that mean that sin is dead? Would we just not know how to act right since there’d be no law telling us what is right or wrong?

So, I guess I can see the benefit of the law to point us toward change, but why need the condemnation for the sin if we are in the process of changing it (ie. repentance). I just don’t get Paul’s letter. It sounds like he’s saying we don’t need the law, but he’s also saying we do because it makes us recognize our need for a Savior and trust in Christ and be changed. Very confusing. Sounds like the Bible teaches it’s our heart/Spirit that saves us, but the RCs teach that it’s our actions that can condemn us even when our Spirit is in line w/God.

For example, There’s a nominal Catholic that goes to Mass every SUnday and day of obligation because that’s the thing to do, they outwardly do all the good Catholic should do, but there’s not much passion for God in their heart. They die and go to Heaven. But if I’m practically in constant prayer, with a strong passion for God who thinks of Him always, I go to mass daily, but Sunday comes along and we spend the day w/family visiting instead of going to Mass, or maybe just feel like staying home and having a
home church day. If I don’t go to confession for this and die, I’m going to Hell? That sounds ridiculous! The Bible clearly teaches that God judges us by our Spirit and the reason we do things, not necessarily the things we do. It’s more the why than the what.

This is a big obstacle for me accepting Catholicism. It’s one of the things that makes me fear the Church really isn’t of God and worse, might be a viscious lie to get people to fall into a legalistic trap and away from the true spirit of Christianity. Help! (Sorry for the long rambled post!)

 

[excelsus]

It doesn’t make a difference whether the Church makes these rules or not. The truth is the truth.

 

[jafthompson]

Do you know the Nicene Creed where we say We believe in one holy catholic and apolostic church. That is our obedience of faith to the Church and her rules as Jesus said “hear you hear Me”.

 

[Jennifer_J]

I think, as a protestant, you are looking at the rules the wrong way. I’m a convert, so I say this from experience. Have you ever thought of rules as freeing? The Church gives us the laws and rules out of love for us and our salvation. An “obligation” to attend Church on a Holy Day or Sunday, is just like an “obligation” to attend your children’s birthday or a relatives anniversary. You do it out of love and a sense of “obligation”. Are there consequences to ignoring familial “obligations”? Usually. Well, since God has said we need to honor and praise Him through worship and the Church has defined what that worship is (though the Holy Spirit), then shouldn’t we listen? We don’t HAVE to go to Church, we are priviledged to be in the presence of God.

Likewise, the other rules guide us in living our lives in this complicated world. I think these passages in Romans are a bit difficult. I think what Paul is saying is that we NEED the law to know what is evil, but our sinful nature seeks go against the law, even when we know what is right. Also he goes on to say (in Chapter 8) that those in the Spirit of Jesus follow the law because they are not of the flesh any longer.

One more point. We don’t know the salvation of anyone. If that nominal Catholic truly doesn’t have the Spirit of Christ, there is no guarentee of heaven, no matter the rules they follow. However, they have the same chance as anyone else. Those who die without the Catholic Church ALSO have a chance at salvation, but those who reject the Catholic Church once you KNOW it’s the Truth (that’s the catch, KNOWING it’s the Truth) is a very serious matter. Likewise, to reject the Catholic Church through NOT going to Mass is very serious, IF one knows that the obligation is serious. The obligation should be met out of love and knowledge of Who we worship and Who we receive at Mass. How can just being with family or reading the bible compair to receiving Jesus in the Eucharist?

Keep reading and studying and asking questions! Prayers for you on your journey.

 

[teachccd]

For example, There’s a nominal Catholic that goes to Mass every SUnday and day of obligation because that’s the thing to do, they outwardly do all the good Catholic should do, but there’s not much passion for God in their heart. They die and go to Heaven. **But if I’m practically in constant prayer, with a strong passion for God who thinks of Him always, I go to mass daily, **but Sunday comes along and we spend the day w/family visiting instead of going to Mass, or maybe just feel like staying home and having a
home church day. If I don’t go to confession for this and die, I’m going to Hell? That sounds ridiculous! The Bible clearly teaches that God judges us by our Spirit and the reason we do things, not necessarily the things we do. It’s more the why than the what.

For myself, I do have a strong passion for Christ and pray as much as I can. My love for Jesus Christ allows me to know that His Church is not about rules but about love and consequences of falling out of that love.

When one gets married they commit themselves (or at least they’re supposed to) to the other person. We call this a covenant and it is based on love. But, within that marriage, there are certain “rules”, if you will. For example I cannot just one day wake up and think that I can spend the day with another woman or even worse becoming initmate with her. I cannot one day say that I’m going to quit my job and not provide for my wife. I cannot one day just wake up and watch pornography while my wife is away. These may seem like “rules” or laws but they springboard out of the love that my wife deserves and anticipates on the day of our marriage.

My love and passion for Christ allows me to leave no stone unturned when discerning His Church. I know that the Mass brings us to the foot of the Cross. There is no other place that I would ever rather be. So when I attend Mass every day that I can and every Sunday it is not because I am fulfilling a law. It is because that is where I can become intimate with our Lord. In fact, it saddens me that there have to be “Holy Days of Obligation” since the laity (people) should already recognize the importance of certain solemnities and yearn to be with Christ. Everyday should be a Holy Day of Obligation. We are obligated to be holy always. Saint Paut stresses this in his letters.

Our God is a God of infinite mercy and He knows your heart better than you do. He does not have a checklist where everything is black and white. He knows our struggles and our weaknesses but He also knows, as a parent, how to guide us and lead us to holiness (Himself).

As a parent, we love our children but we must ask certain things of them. Yes, they disobey but we know if they are putting their momentary “fun” ahead of us or whether or not they really wish to have nothing to do with us. And this could happen with one “good-bye” though this would be less likely if there was a foundational relationship already established.

Catholicism is not about laws or entrapments. Jesus made certain explicit commands while on earth and continues these commands through His Church. And all of His commands are of love and His everlasting covenant with us.

Those Christians who claim that they have a personal relationship with Jesus but never have to “do” anything are like those husbands that claim to be married and yet never have to “do” anything. A relationship requires us to “do” something always out of love. Even conception takes place with us “Doing”: something in cooperation with God’s love.

I love Jesus so much that I could not miss Mass on Sunday unless I was sick because there could be no greater love than a Man laying down His life for His friends. I am His friend so I will be there in thanksgiving and praise. Not because of any law.

God Bless you and feel free to PM me if you ever wish…teachccd

 

[teachccd]

I think, as a protestant, you are looking at the rules the wrong way. I’m a convert, so I say this from experience. Have you ever thought of rules as freeing? The Church gives us the laws and rules out of love for us and our salvation. An “obligation” to attend Church on a Holy Day or Sunday, is just like an “obligation” to attend your children’s birthday or a relatives anniversary. You do it out of love and a sense of “obligation”. Are there consequences to ignoring familial “obligations”? Usually. Well, since God has said we need to honor and praise Him through worship and the Church has defined what that worship is (though the Holy Spirit), then shouldn’t we listen? We don’t HAVE to go to Church, we are priviledged to be in the presence of God.

Likewise, the other rules guide us in living our lives in this complicated world. I think these passages in Romans are a bit difficult. I think what Paul is saying is that we NEED the law to know what is evil, but our sinful nature seeks go against the law, even when we know what is right. Also he goes on to say (in Chapter 8) that those in the Spirit of Jesus follow the law because they are not of the flesh any longer.

One more point. We don’t know the salvation of anyone. If that nominal Catholic truly doesn’t have the Spirit of Christ, there is no guarentee of heaven, no matter the rules they follow. However, they have the same chance as anyone else. Those who die without the Catholic Church ALSO have a chance at salvation, but those who reject the Catholic Church once you KNOW it’s the Truth (that’s the catch, KNOWING it’s the Truth) is a very serious matter. Likewise, to reject the Catholic Church through NOT going to Mass is very serious, IF one knows that the obligation is serious. The obligation should be met out of love and knowledge of Who we worship and Who we receive at Mass. How can just being with family or reading the bible compair to receiving Jesus in the Eucharist?

Keep reading and studying and asking questions! Prayers for you on your journey.

Very, Very well stated! …teachccd

 

[Genesis315]

Here’s another example that might put things in perspective:

One of the Commandments is to honor one’s parents. Let’s say one child’s parents make 10 rules for their son to obey where as another set of parents has no rules for their son to obey. We could make the same argument that the parents who have rules are simply making it harder for their child to go to heaven. But if we examine the rules, we see that they are designed with the good of the child in mind. They help him to be disciplined and to do good–this of course helps him get to heaven. The other son who’s parents imposed no obedience, becomes undisciplined and bratty. This does not help him get to Heaven.

The same can be said for the Church’s rules. Being obligated to go to Mass on Sundays is like parents rule that a child must eat his dinner. If the child doesn’t eat his dinner, he may starve to death. One must attend Mass or risk their soul starving. This rule helps us go to Heaven. We should want to do it on our own like a child should want to eat a nutritious dinner on his own, but that is not always the case. Not all of us are spiritually mature enough to want to go to Mass for love of God alone, so we need the imposed obligation to help us grow towards that.

 

[Exalt]

What led me to post here is the “Holy Day of Obligation” or “Sunday Obligation” thing, but there are many other things the Church imposes on people the seems like what Jesus criticized the Pharisees for doing (making 600+ laws to th original Mosaic Law and 10 Commandments). It was as St. Paul explained in Romans 7:6-13, (and continued through ch 8:17) that the law produced in him sinful desires (which I guess he says was good in that it put him to death so he could be made alive in Christ and live sinlessly).

But if per 7:8, apart from the law sin is dead, why do we want a law?

What does that mean that sin is dead? Would we just not know how to act right since there’d be no law telling us what is right or wrong?

So, I guess I can see the benefit of the law to point us toward change, but why need the condemnation for the sin if we are in the process of changing it (ie. repentance). I just don’t get Paul’s letter. It sounds like he’s saying we don’t need the law, but he’s also saying we do because it makes us recognize our need for a Savior and trust in Christ and be changed. Very confusing. Sounds like the Bible teaches it’s our heart/Spirit that saves us, but the RCs teach that it’s our actions that can condemn us even when our Spirit is in line w/God.

For example, There’s a nominal Catholic that goes to Mass every SUnday and day of obligation because that’s the thing to do, they outwardly do all the good Catholic should do, but there’s not much passion for God in their heart. They die and go to Heaven. But if I’m practically in constant prayer, with a strong passion for God who thinks of Him always, I go to mass daily, but Sunday comes along and we spend the day w/family visiting instead of going to Mass, or maybe just feel like staying home and having a
home church day. If I don’t go to confession for this and die, I’m going to Hell? That sounds ridiculous! The Bible clearly teaches that God judges us by our Spirit and the reason we do things, not necessarily the things we do. It’s more the why than the what.

This is a big obstacle for me accepting Catholicism. It’s one of the things that makes me fear the Church really isn’t of God and worse, might be a viscious lie to get people to fall into a legalistic trap and away from the true spirit of Christianity. Help! (Sorry for the long rambled post!)

The Bible is a mess of contradictory rules, teachings and attitudes. People can have very Biblically-defensible positions that Catholics would say are wrong.

Anyway, so I’d recommend listening to your own reason. Do you think God is going to send you to hell for missing New Years Day mass? Would a just God do that?

 

[Genesis315]

The Bible is a mess of contradictory rules, teachings and attitudes. People can have very Biblically-defensible positions that Catholics would say are wrong.

That of course is not true, but that is a topic for another thread (or series of threads, really).

Anyway, so I’d recommend listening to your own reason. Do you think God is going to send you to hell for missing New Years Day mass? Would a just God do that?

“God, I would prefer to lounge around the house/go shopping/watch football/sleep off my hangover/etc. rather than go to Mass for an hour to worship you and honor your mother, and receive you in holy Communion. Those things are just more important to me to even give you that bare minimum time that your Church has required me to worship at your Holy Sacrifice.”

That is the kind of attitude that is not open to communion with God and His transfiguring love. Not being receptive to that ultimate goodness is exactly what causes one’s damnation.

 

[RyanML]

What led me to post here is the “Holy Day of Obligation” or “Sunday Obligation” thing, but there are many other things the Church imposes on people the seems like what Jesus criticized the Pharisees for doing (making 600+ laws to th original Mosaic Law and 10 Commandments). It was as St. Paul explained in Romans 7:6-13, (and continued through ch 8:17) that the law produced in him sinful desires (which I guess he says was good in that it put him to death so he could be made alive in Christ and live sinlessly).

But if per 7:8, apart from the law sin is dead, why do we want a law?

What does that mean that sin is dead? Would we just not know how to act right since there’d be no law telling us what is right or wrong?

So, I guess I can see the benefit of the law to point us toward change, but why need the condemnation for the sin if we are in the process of changing it (ie. repentance). I just don’t get Paul’s letter. It sounds like he’s saying we don’t need the law, but he’s also saying we do because it makes us recognize our need for a Savior and trust in Christ and be changed. Very confusing. Sounds like the Bible teaches it’s our heart/Spirit that saves us, but the RCs teach that it’s our actions that can condemn us even when our Spirit is in line w/God.

For example, There’s a nominal Catholic that goes to Mass every SUnday and day of obligation because that’s the thing to do, they outwardly do all the good Catholic should do, but there’s not much passion for God in their heart. They die and go to Heaven. But if I’m practically in constant prayer, with a strong passion for God who thinks of Him always, I go to mass daily, but Sunday comes along and we spend the day w/family visiting instead of going to Mass, or maybe just feel like staying home and having a
home church day. If I don’t go to confession for this and die, I’m going to Hell? That sounds ridiculous! The Bible clearly teaches that God judges us by our Spirit and the reason we do things, not necessarily the things we do. It’s more the why than the what.

This is a big obstacle for me accepting Catholicism. It’s one of the things that makes me fear the Church really isn’t of God and worse, might be a viscious lie to get people to fall into a legalistic trap and away from the true spirit of Christianity. Help! (Sorry for the long rambled post!)

I’m afraid there may be many Catholics caught in this “legalistic trap” that you are talking about. But, this is not the teaching of Holy Mother Church. The Church is concerned about holiness of life and living out the grace of our baptism. Without Christ’s grace, our works have no spiritual merit. All is grace! The Church, in her experience and wisdom, understands that requiring certain things of her members is most beneficial to their spiritual wellbeing. But we have to bring something to it, we can’t just be passive. It is good for us to remember that Our Lord condemned those who gave him lip service but their hearts were far from Him. God bless!

 

[bpbasilphx]

Re: Why does the Church make unneccesary rules that just creat more challenges or reasons to go to hell?

**Your question assumes that the Church makes unnecessary rules that just create more challenges or reasons to go to hell.

Your assumption is false. She doesn’t.**

 

[tobinatorstark]

Why does the Church make unneccesary rules that just creat more challenges or reasons to go to hell?

it doesn’t

 

[Ender]

Re: Why does the Church make unneccesary rules that just creat more challenges or reasons to go to hell?

**Your question assumes that the Church makes unnecessary rules that just create more challenges or reasons to go to hell.

Your assumption is false. She doesn’t.**

This is the key point: the Church does not decide what is moral, she explains what is moral.

The knowledge which the church offers to man has its origin not in any speculation of her own, however sublime, but in the word of God which she has received in faith. (Fides et Ratio 7)

*As teacher, she never tires of proclaiming the moral norm. … The Church is in no way the author or the arbiter of this norm. *(Veritatis Splendor 95)

The Church does decide some facets of the faith - such as the order of the liturgy and whether priests may marry - but it is not her rule that we are to remember the sabbath and keep it holy; she is simply explaining what God expects of us. That is His law, not hers.

Ender

 

[teachccd]

The Bible is a mess of contradictory rules, teachings and attitudes. People can have very Biblically-defensible positions that Catholics would say are wrong.

Anyway, so I’d recommend listening to your own reason. Do you think God is going to send you to hell for missing New Years Day mass? Would a just God do that?

No you send yourself to the lesser choice that you put ahead of an infinite loving God. And because YOU CHOOSE a lesser pleasure over an infinitely loving God and His gift of Himself in the Eucharist, He will honor that decision and allow you to remain in your choice of that something else. If you die in that choice then God will honor YOUR choice and allow you an eternity without Him to remain instead with your lesser choice. This eternal absence of God which you decided as better is what the Church calls hell.

A just God will honor your free will and we should be thankful for that…teachccd

 

[bpbasilphx]

**
Anyway, so I’d recommend listening to your own reason. Do you think God is going to send you to hell for missing New Years Day mass? Would a just God do that?**

**Your statement here makes several false assumptions, but I’ll deal with just one issue.

God doesn’t send people to hell. God merely affirms the choice that some people make when they would rather turn their backs on Him; He’s such a gentleman that He would not force His presence on those who would not want Him.**

 

[Ruthie]

The OP says,

The Bible clearly teaches that God judges us by our Spirit and the reason we do things, not necessarily the things we do. It’s more the why than the what.

Where is this taught? What about 1 Cor 3:10-15?

Read Mt 19:16-30. Jesus says there that

“every one who has left houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother or children or lands, for my name’s sake, will receive a hundredfold, and inherit eternal life.” (RSV)

Don’t you disobey this when you hang out at home instead of going to Mass, where Christ is present in His very flesh?

I can tell you that, even if I am reluctant (and even resentful) about leaving what I’m doing and going to Mass on Sunday, I *never *feel that way afterward.

Besides, who said that nominal Catholics who go to to “Mass every Sunday and day of obligation because that’s the thing to do, … but there’s not much passion for God in their heart” go to Heaven?

That would be “earning” their way into Heaven. That is not possible. We are often accused of teaching that, but we don’t.

Good works spring out of faith, which we have only by the grace of God. We teach, as James did, “Faith without works is dead.” That does not mean that works without faith will save you. (See James 2, esp. v 18.)

Hope this helps, and God bless you,

Ruthie

 

[mesl4]

. Those who die without the Catholic Church ALSO have a chance at salvation,.

So why would I want to convert to Catholicism if I can be saved as a Protestant without adding all the extra rules? I still seek to be pure and holy as a Protestant, and to obey, but my rules are fewer because we only use the Bible as our guide.

 

[mesl4]

For myself, I do have a strong passion for Christ and pray as much as I can. My love for Jesus Christ allows me to know that His Church is not about rules but about love and consequences of falling out of that love.

When one gets married they commit themselves (or at least they’re supposed to) to the other person. We call this a covenant and it is based on love. But, within that marriage, there are certain “rules”, if you will. For example I cannot just one day wake up and think that I can spend the day with another woman or even worse becoming initmate with her. I cannot one day say that I’m going to quit my job and not provide for my wife. I cannot one day just wake up and watch pornography while my wife is away.

But your are speaking of actions that become a way of life and I’m speaking of something that is an occasional action that does not cause a change in the person’s love or faith in God.

 

[mesl4]

. There is no other place that I would ever rather be. So when I attend Mass every day that I can and every Sunday it is not because I am fulfilling a law. It is because that is where I can become intimate with our Lord.

Whether you want to obey that law or not, it is still a law. I like going the speed limit, or obeying other civil laws, but if I break them I’m still fined/jailed. So, the church makes laws and we can choose to obey or disobey. The point is, why does it have to be a law? If your whole identity in being a Christian is wrapped up in going to Church or receiving the Eucharist every wk, than I can understand I guess, but our identity as Christians should be much bigger than that. He came to dwell IN us! Our body is the temple. I don’t need to GO to a certain place to be with him. He is with me ALWAYS. Whether it is in the bathroom, bedroom, work, church building, or even in the valley of the shadow of death. He is there. That’s why I don’t understand why the RCs want to make it like we’re abandoning him if we don’t GO to a certain building at a certain time. Especially if we are there more than not, and then just happen to not go on a cetain day. The Bible speaks of it not mattering what day we go.THe church contradicts this.

 

[Tantum_ergo]

The ‘day we go’ happens to be whatever date the Church, in its wisdom and Holy-Spirit-guided authority has given us to come together to receive the Risen Lord Body and Blood, Soul and Divinity, and to participate with Him in the once-for-all sacrifice at Calvary.

The preceding typology is the Jewish Sabbath --likewise a law, given by God to Moses and for all Jews to follow. Now, God is unchanging. . .so why would He institute this law for His chosen people, and then suddenly in the New Covenant decide, “hey, it doesn’t matter when, where, how often you come to receive Christ who died for you and whose body and blood you must receive to have eternal life within you”. . .

Now, it seems the ‘objection’ is to the (extremely few) Holy Days of Obligation that occur ‘in addition’ to Sundays. . . as though this ‘onerous burden’ is too pharisitical or man-made to accept.

Well, the main problem here is with authority. It’s like saying, "Well, yes, I accept that the Catholic faith has the fullness of faith. I accept that the Real Presence is truth. I accept the Scriptures. I accept, in fact, everything about Catholicism. . .

except. . .

except. . .

Its authority. I reject that. I want to have what I want on my terms. I refuse to give obedience to the Church on anything I think is not ‘Scriptural’, on anything I think doesn’t or shouldn’t apply to me at any given time.

I want to have all the ‘perks’. . .but none of the responsibilities. I want to feel like I’m on the fast track to salvation. . .but not actually ‘take up my yoke and follow Christ in obedience’ because hey, I’m an individual with rights and MY reason, MY ideas, MY life is more important than some fusty, musty rules that I don’t want and I don’t TRUST because they don’t ‘suit’ me."

Mind you, this is not a personal attack on YOU, Mes!!! I’m not saying YOU are thinking this!!! I am only saying that a lot of ‘resistance’ to authority comes down to this type of thinking, often not ‘consciously’ realized by the person to whom ‘thinking for myself’ has become so entrenched as being ‘good’ and ‘obedience to authority’ has become hopelessly passe, a sign of STUPIDITY, of lemming-like passivity, a positive evil.