Why does the Church object?

[Texas_Roofer]

Hi Kathy
If you re-read Acts (an in a few later books) you will see a few times Paul and Peter disagree, the other Apostles step in and affirm Peter’s authority. Peter was the first Pope all other Popes shoulder the same responsibility. Everyday some one starts a new religion and we are all free to join but no true Catholic goes.

I am guessing you see things in the Catholic Church which appear to conflict with either your logic or past teachings, and thus your question. I would ask you to consider asking a series of questions as “Why does the church teach xxxxxxxx, and what is the base under such a teaching?” Others on the forum can then one by one explain the entire methods Catholics are taught to live by - hope that helps

 

[Writer]

(John 10:14-16) “I am the good shepherd; I know my own and my own know me and I know the Father; and I lay down my life for my sheep. And there are other sheep I have that are not of this fold, and these I have to lead as well. They too will listen to my voice, and there will be only one flock, and one shepherd.

(John 10:27) “The sheep that belong to me listen to my voice; I know them and they follow me.”

(John 12:48) “He who rejects me and refuses my words has his judge already: the word itself that I have spoken will be his judge on the last day.”

Now there is scripture to back up that a person baptized in the Holy Spirit will know Jesus voice and follow and that the Word that Jesus spoke will be that persons judge on the last day. You notice Jesus said the Word not the Church. If a person comes to know Jesus voice, and remember Jesus said that people who belong to him, would know his voice and follow no other. Now if that voice, Jesus, has that person living the Word as it is written. Why would the Church want this person ever to live any other way?

The only other thing I would add is that, if it is simple as you portray it to be, then why do different Protestant denominations believe opposing doctrinal views on so many topics? Does this mean either that they don’t hear Jesus’ voice so clearly as they imagine perhaps–since Jesus could not lead churches in opposite directions. Kind of makes one have a different understanding of the nature and purpose of authority, don’t you think?

 

[KathyH]

The Church does not want people to live any other way. The Christian should listen to Jesus and follow his voice. The question is: where do we hear his voice. Many people make the claim to be following Jesus’ voice, and yet go off and do mutually contradictory things for the sake of the voice. So, unless we believe that Jesus doesn’t know what he’s saying, we must conclude that there are many well-intentioned people who think they are hearing Jesus’ voice, but, in fact, are not.

So the question comes again? How can we be sure that the voice we are hearing is that of Jesus, as opposed to my own, or worse? The Catholic answer to that question is that we think Jesus established his Church for the purpose of making that voice clear. In so doing, the Church has given us the Scriptures, the living Tradition, and it’s interpretation thereof. What other means will ensure the clarity necessary for sure action? I can think of none…

Isn’t a person’s salvation his or her own to be decided by them? If we judge a person by the fruit they produce, then a person led by the Holy Spirit will generate good fruit, and if it isn’t the Holy Spirit they won’t bear good fruit.

I know it is truly God leading me because everything I am taught to do is in his Word and is having me love. Now some how this is the kind of person I want to be, and I don’t think that Satan would teach me to do well.

 

[JaneFrances]

What is the objection of the Church, after it brings someone to know Jesus and getting the person baptized with the Holy Spirit, of letting that person be led by the Holy Spirit to their salvation? Isn’t a person’s salvation his or her own to be decided by them?

Hi Kathy,

Make no mistake about it, the Catholic Church has no objection to anyone following the Holy Spirit. In fact, we believe that the Church, herself, is led by the Holy Spirit. We believe our Savior when he told his disciples:

But the Counselor, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you. John 14:26

We know that Sacred Scripture is the inspired, Holy Spirit breathed Word of God. And because of this we believe Sacred Scripture when St. Paul writes:

If I am delayed, you will know how people ought to conduct themselves in God’s household, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of the truth. 1 Timothy 3:15

Thus, we believe that when our personal will contradicts the holy teachings of Christ’s holy and authoritative Church, we must sumbit our will to the Holy Spirit through “the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of the truth” rather than trying to conform our will to our personal desires, interpretations, and revelations.

 

[HailMary]

Isn’t a person’s salvation his or her own to be decided by them? If we judge a person by the fruit they produce, then a person led by the Holy Spirit will generate good fruit, and if it isn’t the Holy Spirit they won’t bear good fruit.

I know it is truly God leading me because everything I am taught to do is in his Word and is having me love. Now some how this is the kind of person I want to be, and I don’t think that Satan would teach me to do well.

No, that clearly isn’t the case:
Matthew 9:1-2
He entered a boat, made the crossing, and came into his own town. And there people brought to him a paralytic lying on a stretcher. When Jesus saw their faith, he said to the paralytic, “Courage, child, your sins are forgiven.”

In this example, and we see that it was the faith of those who brought the paralytic to Jesus that was the that pardon due to sin was realized on account of the faith and obedience of another
party.

Furthermore: Job 42:7-10
After the LORD had said these things to Job, he said to Eliphaz the Temanite, “I am angry with you and your two friends, because you have not spoken of me what is right, as my servant Job has. So now take seven bulls and seven rams and go to my servant Job and sacrifice a burnt offering for yourselves. My servant Job will pray for you (prefigureation of the intercession of the Saints), and I will accept his prayer and not deal with you according to your folly. You have not spoken of me what is right, as my servant Job has.” So Eliphaz the Temanite, Bildad the Shuhite and Zophar the Naamathite did what the LORD told them; and the LORD accepted Job’s prayer. After Job had prayed for his friends, the LORD made him prosperous again and gave him twice as much as he had before.
In Jobs example, if he, in his free will, decided not to pray for Eliphaz and his two friends, they would be have not been forgiven.

The human race entered into a COVENANT with God and that makes us all family. Recall the curses of God that can go 4 generations deep.

also see, Revelation 5:8, and Revelation 8:3-4. God bless

 

[mlchance]

Isn’t a person’s salvation his or her own to be decided by them? If we judge a person by the fruit they produce, then a person led by the Holy Spirit will generate good fruit, and if it isn’t the Holy Spirit they won’t bear good fruit.

Not necessarily. When Jesus sent the Apostles out to preach, cast out demons, et cetera, Judas Iscariot was one of those sent.

I know it is truly God leading me because everything I am taught to do is in his Word and is having me love.

If you’ve been led to believe anything that contradicts what the Church teaches, you’ve either not been led by the Holy Spirit or else have misunderstood what you were told.

Now some how this is the kind of person I want to be, and I don’t think that Satan would teach me to do well.

Why wouldn’t Satan lure people away from the Truth with something that appears reasonable and good? It’s how he got Eve in the Garden.

– Mark L. Chance.

 

[MariaG]

Matthew 7:15"Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing but inwardly are ravenous wolves.
16 You will know them by their fruits. Are grapes gathered from thorns, or figs from thistles?
17 So, every sound tree bears good fruit, but the bad tree bears evil fruit.
18A sound tree cannot bear evil fruit, nor can a bad tree bear good fruit.
19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.
20 Thus you will know them by their fruits.
21"Not every one who says to me, `Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven,** but he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. **

22 On that day many will say to me, Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?' 23 And then will I declare to them, I never knew you; depart from me, you evildoers.’

Scripture clearly warns us that there will be those who have fooled even themselves into thinking they are Christians yet Christ will not know them.

Christ left us a visible Church to look to. Instructions were left in scripture telling us to entrust the Word with trustworthy men. Is God is big enough to keep His Church teachings true as He promised in Scripture? Is your faith big enough to believe that God kept His scripture 100% true when He said the church is “the pillar and foundation of truth”?

How can one “tell it to the Church” if the Church is not expected to be and remain a visible Church (see scripture below)? Did God misled us? Is His word not a living breathing word? Or were there things written that only apply to the times back then and not valid now?

Matthew 18:16 But if he does not listen, take one or two others along with you, that every word may be confirmed by the evidence of two or three witnesses.
17If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector.

So what is wrong with those who want to follow the “leading of the Holy Spirit” even if they know it contradicts the Church Christ left His Inspired Word in? That person is not doing the will of the Father and Christ will not know them.

God bless,
Maria

 

[Liberian]

Kathy,

While it sounds fine in theory, in practice there are too many pitfalls in the way. People’s capacity for self-delusion is virtually unlimited. For example, back in the late 1970’s Larry Flynt, the publisher of “Hustler” magazine, had a very public conversion to Evangelical Christianity and then announced that God had told him that he should keep publishing his magazine. The idea of “letting an individual be led” by himself will lead to this sort of thing.

• Liberian

 

[Texas_Roofer]

Isn’t a person’s salvation his or her own to be decided by them? If we judge a person by the fruit they produce, then a person led by the Holy Spirit will generate good fruit, and if it isn’t the Holy Spirit they won’t bear good fruit.

I know it is truly God leading me because everything I am taught to do is in his Word and is having me love. Now some how this is the kind of person I want to be, and I don’t think that Satan would teach me to do well.

This is not what the bible contains. The bible is very clear God decides never you. The bible also says your faith and works are the real you but clearly no guarantees

 

[Texas_Roofer]

Hi Again Kathy
Could you be more specific? The Catholic Church is not trying in any way to separate you from the Holy Spirit. There are always new self appointed religious leaders as David Karsh or Jim Jones do you think the Holy Spirit lead them to those mass suicides, or was that a misguided idea. How about Harold Camping, he is probably a well meaning man and a big proponent of your plan, but was he correct when he predicted the end of the world? Are you considering 2000 years of scholar could be correct?

 

[Contarini]

Isn’t a person’s salvation his or her own to be decided by them?

Certainly not. Why would you think this?

What would the Church say if the Holy Spirit told a person not to call anyone father other than God, that it was wrong to store up for their future, that to kill someone for any reason was wrong?

Personally I wouldn’t have a problem with any of those things, and I don’t think the Church Universal would. The Roman Communion (known as the “Catholic Church”) would not object to the latter two things. In fact, monks and nuns traditionally are not supposed to lay up possessions or to kill, and you don’t have to be a monk or nun to live this way (though arguably if you have children or other dependents there’s a problem with not providing for them!). The only one Catholics might have a problem with is the first, and even then as far as I know the terms “Father” or “Holy Father” are only courtesy titles and not matters of dogma. I don’t think priests were usually called “Father” until the seventeenth century, but I could be wrong on this. (Granted, they were called “sir” or “dan” in English, both of these originally meaning “lord,” which you might have a bigger problem with!)

Edwin

 

[levi86]

Isn’t a person’s salvation his or her own to be decided by them?.

No it isn’t! That’s for God to decide.

What you have eluded to here is an intrinsic fault within Protestantism. In that God ceases to be an absolute, instead he becomes a construct of ones own mind.

A person who acts without the guidance of The Church will inevitably begin to worship their own mental constructs; they worship their own ideas, morals and values, not those of God.

We must meet God on his terms not ours.

God bless!
Levi

 

[Milliardo]

What is the objection of the Church, after it brings someone to know Jesus and getting the person baptized with the Holy Spirit, of letting that person be led by the Holy Spirit to their salvation? Isn’t a person’s salvation his or her own to be decided by them?

There is no objection in that, as there have been many saints who have been led by the Holy Spirit. What is objectionable, as Scott said, is when a person thinks that he is so led by the Holy Spirit as to make notions contrary to Catholic teaching. Obviously, as the Church does teach that its teachings are inspired by the Holy Spirit, that it couldn’t be the same Spirit which would lead such a person to contradict the Church.

 

[KathyH]

Well it seems to me most of the people who have posted on this thread, believe Satan is much better at what he does than the Holy Spirit. Also it seems that most of you don’t believe anyone can trust his or her relationship with Jesus. If someone isn’t Catholic it can’t be Jesus who is leading them.

(Mark 9:38 – 40) “John said to Him, ‘Master, we saw a man who is not one of us casting out devils in your name; and because he was not one of us we tried to stop him’. But Jesus said, ‘you must not stop him: no one who works a miracle in my name is likely to speak evil of me. Anyone who is not against us is for us.”

You notice here Jesus tells us we can be with him without belonging to any one group.

I really have a problem with the way Catholics defend their belief in the Catholic teachings. I say Jesus told us to love our enemies and then I’m told that the Catholic Church teaches that also. Yet the Church sponsored the Crusades, supported most of the wars that the U.S. has been in for the last one hundred years. I say Jesus told us not to call another man Father, and then I’m told Paul did so we can. Because someone else does something does not give us the right to do so also. I say Jesus told us not to store, and I’m told to join a convent. Now I’m told that because I’m not Catholic it can’t be God leading me even though I’m living the Word, and as far as I can see the Catholic Church isn’t teaching the Word.

 

[levi86]

Well it seems to me most of the people who have posted on this thread, believe Satan is much better at what he does than the Holy Spirit. Also it seems that most of you don’t believe anyone can trust his or her relationship with Jesus. If someone isn’t Catholic it can’t be Jesus who is leading them.

Well apparently he was powerful enough to lead the entire Christian Church into the heresy of Catholicism?

 

[levi86]

Well it seems to me most of the people who have posted on this thread, believe Satan is much better at what he does than the Holy Spirit. Also it seems that most of you don’t believe anyone can trust his or her relationship with Jesus. If someone isn’t Catholic it can’t be Jesus who is leading them.

Satan must be better at what he does, after all he was able to lead the entire Christian Church into the heresy of Catholicism?

 

[levi86]

Well it seems to me most of the people who have posted on this thread, believe Satan is much better at what he does than the Holy Spirit. Also it seems that most of you don’t believe anyone can trust his or her relationship with Jesus. If someone isn’t Catholic it can’t be Jesus who is leading them.

Satan must be better at what he does, after all he was able to lead the entire Christian Church into the heresy of Catholicism.

 

[Milliardo]

Also it seems that most of you don’t believe anyone can trust his or her relationship with Jesus.

It’s simple mathematics: Catholics have a relationship with Christ; Protestants have a relationship with Christ. Both say they’re led by the Holy Spirit. Can it be true then that the Spirit says one thing to a Catholic, and another to a Protestant? Or let’s go even a bit deeper–30,000 and so Protestant denominations, each claiming to be led by the Holy Spirit, each claiming the Bible to be its authority. Can the Holy Spirit lead 30,000 denominations to say differently to each other? I think that’s a fairly logical way of looking at it.

If someone isn’t Catholic it can’t be Jesus who is leading them.

See my point above; we’ll set aside Catholic/Protestant differences and focus first on different Protestant denominations. Do you think the Holy Spirit convicts one group to teach one thing, and another group is convicted to teach a different one?

(Mark 9:38 – 40) “John said to Him, ‘Master, we saw a man who is not one of us casting out devils in your name; and because he was not one of us we tried to stop him’. But Jesus said, ‘you must not stop him: no one who works a miracle in my name is likely to speak evil of me. Anyone who is not against us is for us.”

This is often used as proof-text to show that non-Catholics must not be against Him; now, out of charity we will not put it into that light, but consider: the Church steadfastly maintains Apostolic Succession, and we can verify this in the Early Church Fathers. If that is so, then can one who is not in the Church, and who teaches contrary to it, then be with Him? This is, incidentally, the point raised by St. Cyprian of Carthage in his treatise, “The Unity of the Catholic Church”.

 

[Elzee]

. I say Jesus told us not to call another man Father, and then I’m told Paul did so we can Because someone else does something does not give us the right to do so also.

Are you saying Paul was wrong, or are you saying the Holy Spirit sets different truths for different people? If so, where does it tell us in Scripture this is how God works? And, if what you are saying is true, why do we need Scripture at all if God is going to provide private and inconsistent truths to each person individually? Does God have more than one truth? If so, the onenees Jesus prayed for in John really throws a wrench in things.

 

[alexaustralia]

Kathy,

Being Catholic I can say that any one can have a relationship with Christ even those that have not heard of the historic Jesus. After all we cannot limit God. So for sure Protestants can and actually do have a relationship with him. However one must always be aware that Jesus did not teach mutually exclusive truths. How and who has the physical authority to tell a fellow Christian…you are mistaken?

The Church was given a mission to spread the truth of the good news. And like many have already stated there can be but ONE TRUTH. For example I have a relationship with Jesus but it aint perfect. I might pray for guidance to know if God is trinity (Father, Son and Holy Spirit are three persons one God). I end up with a deep sense that NO, God is only God the Father. I look at Scripture and find evidence that Jesus portrays himself as inferior to the Father. Therefore Scripture agrees with me.

Ofcourse you would point me to other Scripture that shows Jesus equality in the Godhead. And you will sure point out that one cannot just select passages but that one has to look at the whole message of Christ in context.

In that same spirit I wish to show you a passage from Scripture that shows the term “Father” in itself can be given to people in a spiritual role. Otherwise Paul here would be teaching falsehood.

1 Corinthians 14I am not writing this to shame you, but to warn you, as my dear children. 15Even though you have ten thousand guardians in Christ, you do not have many fathers, for in Christ Jesus I became your father through the gospel.

As for the crusades, please study more on the matter. You have the Crusades to thank for Europe to have remained Christian. Imagine in today’s terms that all Muslim nations decide to expand and take over America, Great Britain and 2/3 of the whole Western world. The only remaining Christian nations are 3rd world countries like Mexico. They have a good heart but not much muscle and all they are fighting for is freedom to be themselves and for that single city that represents all they believe in , Jerusalem. This is not far fetched, you have to remember that Europe back then was the third world. Alexandria, Antioch, Jerusalem were “number 1”. But ofcourse there were people that took advantage of the situation but they do not represent the spirit of the crusades.

Alex