Who am I to say Paul was wrong? What Paul did he must have thought didn’t fit under the word that Jesus gave. He may have thought that calling himself father was OK as long as no one else did. Besides Paul wasn’t perfect either. Because Paul may have made a mistake doesn’t give us the right to make the same mistake.Are you saying Paul was wrong, or are you saying the Holy Spirit sets different truths for different people? If so, where does it tell us in Scripture this is how God works? And, if what you are saying is true, why do we need Scripture at all if God is going to provide private and inconsistent truths to each person individually? Does God have more than one truth? If so, the onenees Jesus prayed for in John really throws a wrench in things.
Do you really believe that the end justifies the means? Do you think that anyone has the right to disobey God? We are to hear his Word and live it, to follow him and let his will be done. His will is to live his Word.Kathy,
Being Catholic I can say that any one can have a relationship with Christ even those that have not heard of the historic Jesus. After all we cannot limit God. So for sure Protestants can and actually do have a relationship with him. However one must always be aware that Jesus did not teach mutually exclusive truths. How and who has the physical authority to tell a fellow Christian…you are mistaken?
The Church was given a mission to spread the truth of the good news. And like many have already stated there can be but ONE TRUTH. For example I have a relationship with Jesus but it aint perfect. I might pray for guidance to know if God is trinity (Father, Son and Holy Spirit are three persons one God). I end up with a deep sense that NO, God is only God the Father. I look at Scripture and find evidence that Jesus portrays himself as inferior to the Father. Therefore Scripture agrees with me.
Ofcourse you would point me to other Scripture that shows Jesus equality in the Godhead. And you will sure point out that one cannot just select passages but that one has to look at the whole message of Christ in context.
In that same spirit I wish to show you a passage from Scripture that shows the term “Father” in itself can be given to people in a spiritual role. Otherwise Paul here would be teaching falsehood.
1 Corinthians 14I am not writing this to shame you, but to warn you, as my dear children. 15Even though you have ten thousand guardians in Christ, you do not have many fathers, for in Christ Jesus I became your father through the gospel.
As for the crusades, please study more on the matter. You have the Crusades to thank for Europe to have remained Christian. Imagine in today’s terms that all Muslim nations decide to expand and take over America, Great Britain and 2/3 of the whole Western world. The only remaining Christian nations are 3rd world countries like Mexico. They have a good heart but not much muscle and all they are fighting for is freedom to be themselves and for that single city that represents all they believe in , Jerusalem. This is not far fetched, you have to remember that Europe back then was the third world. Alexandria, Antioch, Jerusalem were “number 1”. But ofcourse there were people that took advantage of the situation but they do not represent the spirit of the crusades.
Alex
That makes no sense; it could mean then that Paul didn’t believe in what Jesus said so he made his own notion of it. Doesn’t seem like that at all though.What Paul did he must have thought didn’t fit under the word that Jesus gave.
Again, that couldn’t be right, either, since then like above he’d be making his own notion apart from Christ. But we know he didn’t. So in light of that, what did Jesus mean then? It couldn’t be that Paul is saying one thing, and Jesus another. Remember, the Bible is one glorious harmony that flows.He may have thought that calling himself father was OK as long as no one else did.
Doesn’t make sense; now you’re assuming he made a mistake. Isn’t it that the Bible is supposed to be free from error?Because Paul may have made a mistake doesn’t give us the right to make the same mistake.
And what is the will of God?Do you really believe that the end justifies the means? Do you think that anyone has the right to disobey God? We are to hear his Word and live it, to follow him and let his will be done. His will is to live his Word.
Interesting that in order to uphold your believes you call Paul a liar and you declare the Bible, the Word of God to have error in its message. You are stating it is preferable to doubt an apostle than to doubt your interpretation…interesting to say the least. If Paul got it wrong there…what about the rest of his epistles…what about other apostles?Who am I to say Paul was wrong? What Paul did he must have thought didn’t fit under the word that Jesus gave. He may have thought that calling himself father was OK as long as no one else did. Besides Paul wasn’t perfect either. Because Paul may have made a mistake doesn’t give us the right to make the same mistake.
Good posts so far everyone…Who am I to say Paul was wrong? What Paul did he must have thought didn’t fit under the word that Jesus gave. He may have thought that calling himself father was OK as long as no one else did. Besides Paul wasn’t perfect either. Because Paul may have made a mistake doesn’t give us the right to make the same mistake.
Obviously, St. Paul has made no mistake. Respectfully, I would suggest that the mistake is in the popular Protestant reaction to the Catholic Church’s practice of calling our spiritual leaders, “Father.”Who am I to say Paul was wrong? What Paul did he must have thought didn’t fit under the word that Jesus gave. He may have thought that calling himself father was OK as long as no one else did. Besides Paul wasn’t perfect either. Because Paul may have made a mistake doesn’t give us the right to make the same mistake.
Therefore I sent to you Timothy, my beloved and faithful child in the Lord. . . (1 Cor. 4:17),
To Timothy, my true child in the faith. . . (1 Tim. 1:2),
To Timothy, my beloved child. . . (2 Tim. 1:2),
This charge I commit to you, Timothy, my son. . . (1 Tim. 1:18),
You then, my son, be strong in the grace that is in Christ Jesus. . . (2 Tim. 2:1),
St. Paul refers to others in this way, too.But Timothy’s worth you know, how as a son with a **father **he has served with me in the gospel (Phil. 2:22).
To Titus, my true child in a common faith (Titus 1:4),
I appeal to you for my child, Onesimus, whose father I have become in my imprisonment (Philem. 10).
Timothy, Titus, Onesimus, and all of those in the Church at Galatia arent St. Paul s biological children, yet he still is very comfortable calling them his children and calling himself their father.My little children, with whom I am again in travail until Christ be formed in you! (Gal 4:19)
We also see St. Peter and St. John referring to themselves in the same way. St. Peter writes about Mark,**I became your father in Christ Jesus through the gospel **(1 Cor. 4:15).
St. John says,She who is at Babylon , who is likewise chosen, sends you greetings; and so does my son Mark (1 Pet. 5:13).
andMy little children, I am writing this to you so that you may not sin. . . (1 Jn. 2:1)
And St. John even addresses the elders in the congregation as Fathers (1 Jn. 2:13-14).No greater joy can I have than this, to hear that my children follow the truth (3 Jn. 4).
You took the words right out of my mouth. If one author of the bible could have been mistaken, then other authors of the bible could have also been mistaken. Even quotes attributed to Christ could have mis-quoted and MIGHT be in error.Interesting that in order to uphold your believes you call Paul a liar and you declare the Bible, the Word of God to have error in its message. You are stating it is preferable to doubt an apostle than to doubt your interpretation…interesting to say the least. If Paul got it wrong there…what about the rest of his epistles…what about other apostles?
“He who hears you hears Me.”If a person comes to know Jesus voice, and remember Jesus said that people who belong to him, would know his voice and follow no other.
An evangelical pastor once said, "We cannot say, ‘I like the words of Jesus but I do not like the words of Paul,’ or “I follow the words of Jesus but I do not follow the words of Paul,’ anymore than we can say, ‘I obey God the Father, but not Jesus.’”Who am I to say Paul was wrong? What Paul did he must have thought didn’t fit under the word that Jesus gave. He may have thought that calling himself father was OK as long as no one else did. Besides Paul wasn’t perfect either. Because Paul may have made a mistake doesn’t give us the right to make the same mistake.
No. No one in this thread believes that Satan is better at what He does than what the Holy Spirit does.Well it seems to me most of the people who have posted on this thread, believe Satan is much better at what he does than the Holy Spirit. Also it seems that most of you don’t believe anyone can trust his or her relationship with Jesus. If someone isn’t Catholic it can’t be Jesus who is leading them.
Jesus also said the following.(Mark 9:38 – 40) “John said to Him, ‘Master, we saw a man who is not one of us casting out devils in your name; and because he was not one of us we tried to stop him’. But Jesus said, ‘you must not stop him: no one who works a miracle in my name is likely to speak evil of me. Anyone who is not against us is for us.”
You notice here Jesus tells us we can be with him without belonging to any one group.
Ok, KathyH I’ll bite. How are we to judge a person? You may say that if they are going against scripture that’s how we judge, but how do you know your understanding is correct? How do we know they are producing good fruit? One thing may look good to me, but bad to you. Another thing may appear good to you but not to me. So who is to decide if it is good fruit or not? You will probably say, “Well, I will look to scripture and the Holy Spirit to guide me”. But still the question remains, as to how do I know that I’m interpreting scripture correctly and how am I sure it is the Holy Spirit guiding me?” Are we to go by our “feelings”. That is what I believe is wrong with many protestants. They go by their “feelings”. Jesus said that it is “….the church… the pillar and foundation of truth” and also “…he who hears you hears Me, and the one to sent Me”. So if there is conflict, we go to the Church that Jesus founded to learn the “Truth”. If we go against the Church, that certainly is not bearing good fruit.Isn’t a person’s salvation his or her own to be decided by them? If we judge a person by the fruit they produce, then a person led by the Holy Spirit will generate good fruit, and if it isn’t the Holy Spirit they won’t bear good fruit.
You said “everything I am taught”, so who is doing the teaching? And how do you know without a shadow of a doubt that what you have been taught is correctly interpreted? You said everything you were taught to do is in his Word. Do you receive His Body and Blood as Jesus commanded in John 6? Now you will probably say that Jesus was just speaking metaphorically. Well, how do you know your interpretation or whoever taught you is correct? Is this what you were taught? If so, is that what has been taught by the Church since its inception, even before we had the Bible?I know it is truly God leading me because everything I am taught to do is in his Word and is having me love. Now some how this is the kind of person I want to be,
Think again and look at 2 Cor 11:14. as Satan can disguise himself as an angel of light. At times, he will have you do something good so that he can more easily entrap you later on. The thing is we must test all spirits, and if that spirit is telling us something contrary to what the Church has taught for 2000 years then we know that it is not the Holy Spirit. We do not test the spirits by going through the bible on our own and finally finding something that makes us “feel” good and then claim we are correct. We arrogantly put ourselves above God by telling Him “I don’t need the Church. I know my interpretation is correct.”and I don’t think that Satan would teach me to do well.
You’ll note, of course, that no one said that. What was said was that, if people are doing contradictory things in the name of Jesus, clearly someone is wrong.If someone isn’t Catholic it can’t be Jesus who is leading them.
Yes, she did. And, despite the excesses, there were valid historical reasons for that. Like: 1) Catholic Europe was being overtaken by Muslim hordes. 2) Jerusalem, the Holy City of Christendom, had been taken away from Christendom. Etc. Too much and too varied and too complicated to discuss in 2 sentences, though.I say Jesus told us to love our enemies and then I’m told that the Catholic Church teaches that also. Yet the Church sponsored the Crusades,
Uh. What? Certainly, the ones that were just, such as WW1 and WW2. The others, you might have to go dig up some documentation.supported most of the wars that the U.S. has been in for the last one hundred years.
What we’re saying is that Paul obviously understood Jesus’ stricture differently than you do.I say Jesus told us not to call another man Father, and then I’m told Paul did so we can. Because someone else does something does not give us the right to do so also.
Uh. Wanna run that by me again. I said no such thing. I merely pointed out that there are many people within Catholicism who have given all their material possessions away. In other words, Catholics are free to give away their goods.I say Jesus told us not to store, and I’m told to join a convent.
What? Do you agree that, of two people, one who thinks the bible teaches the Eucharist is only symbolic, and another that teaches that it is more than symbolic, one of them is wrong? Or that one who thinks abortion is OK and another who doesn’t are both right? The point is, Jesus doesn’t contradict himself.Now I’m told that because I’m not Catholic it can’t be God leading me even though I’m living the Word, and as far as I can see the Catholic Church isn’t teaching the Word
You seem to be assuming Jesus was a pacifist. Am I correct?Do you really believe that the end justifies the means? Do you think that anyone has the right to disobey God? We are to hear his Word and live it, to follow him and let his will be done. His will is to live his Word.
Okay Kathy, I have a few questions for you. But first, I need to share a little with you about my salvation.What is the objection of the Church, after it brings someone to know Jesus and getting the person baptized with the Holy Spirit, of letting that person be led by the Holy Spirit to their salvation? Isn’t a person’s salvation his or her own to be decided by them?
From CA Library Call No Man Father?
So What Did Jesus Mean?
Jesus criticized Jewish leaders who love “the place of honor at feasts and the best seats in the synagogues, and salutations in the market places, and being called ‘rabbi’ by men” (Matt. 23:6–7). His admonition here is a response to the Pharisees’ proud hearts and their grasping after marks of status and prestige.
He was using hyperbole (exaggeration to make a point) to show the scribes and Pharisees how sinful and proud they were for not looking humbly to God as the source of all authority and fatherhood and teaching, and instead setting themselves up as the ultimate authorities, father figures, and teachers.
Christ used hyperbole often, for example when he declared, "If your right eye causes you to sin, pluck it out and throw it away; it is better that you lose one of your members than that your whole body be thrown into hell" (Matt. 5:29, cf. 18:9; Mark 9:47). Christ certainly did not intend this to be applied literally, for otherwise all Christians would be blind amputees! (cf. 1 John 1:8; 1 Tim. 1:15). We are all subject to “the lust of the flesh and the lust of the eyes and the pride of life” (1 John 2:16).
Since Jesus is demonstrably using hyperbole when he says not to call anyone our father—else we would not be able to refer to our earthly fathers as such—we must read his words carefully and with sensitivity to the presence of hyperbole if we wish to understand what he is saying.
So unless you are typing one handed or claim to have never sinned with your hand, clearly you did not take Jesus literally when he said to cut off your hand if it sins. This is the same thing.Jesus is not forbidding us to call men “fathers” who actually are such—either literally or spiritually. (See below on the apostolic example of spiritual fatherhood.) To refer to such people as fathers is only to acknowledge the truth, and Jesus is not against that. He is warning people against inaccurately attributing fatherhood—or a particular kind or degree of fatherhood—to those who do not have it.
KathyH, are you Robert Heibel back for another round?What would the Church say if the Holy Spirit told a person not to call anyone father other than God, that it was wrong to store up for their future, that to kill someone for any reason was wrong?