Why does the Church object?

[KathyH]

Of course she does. I have come to expect nothing less that this from most, and note I said most, of the non-Catholics who come here. Indeed, I am pleasantly surprized when someone comes to us with genuine questions and no ulterior motive behind them.

Kathy,
Cute?? Of course I consider myself in the “us” category. Jesus only established one Church. ONE. He built it on Peter, the Rock. The Catholic Church IS this Church. I belong to the Barque of Peter. Are you against us? It certainly looks that way

I know you believe that, but there are many, many good knowledgeable people in the world that don’t. I personally don’t know or care. What determines if we get to heaven is if we hear the Word of the Lord and live it. When a scriptures is quoted where Jesus tell us to do something and people have to search for ways, excuses the get around doing what he says, that tells me that they’re not living the Word of God.

By the way I thought this forum was to challenge and discuss different religious beliefs. So why put down people who are here doing just that? Are you afraid you may be wrong?

 

[KathyH]

Help! Gasp! I can’t breathe!!! What is the “whole” Word of God, KathyH?

Here is some of the Word the Catholic Church doesn’t teach:
(Matthew 5:44) “But I say this to you: love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you
Matthew 12:31) “And so I tell you, every one of men’s sins and blasphemies will be forgiven, but blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven.”

(Matthew 6:19) “Do not store up treasures for yourselves on earth, where moths and woodworms destroy them and thieves can break in and steal.”

(Luke 12:33) “Sell your possessions and give alms. Get yourselves purses that do not wear out, treasure that will not fail you, in Heaven where no thief can reach it and no moth destroy it. For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also.”

(Luke 14:33) “So in the same way, none of you can be my disciple unless he gives up all his possessions.”

(1 John 3: 3 - 9) “Surely everyone who entertains this hope must purify himself, must try to be as pure as Christ. Any one who sins at all breaks the law, because to sin is to break the law. Now you know that He appeared in order to abolish sin, and that in Him there is no sin; anyone who lives in God does not sin, and anyone who sins has never seen Him or known Him. My children do not let anyone lead you astray; to live a holy life is to be holy just as He is holy; to lead a sinful life is to belong to the Devil, since the Devil was a sinner from the beginning. It was to undo all that the Devil has done that the Son of God appeared. No one who has been begotten by God sins: because God’s seed remains inside him, he cannot sin when he has been begotten by God.”

 

[Mickey]

I personally don’t know or care.

That seems evident.

 

[jmcrae]

By the way I thought this forum was to challenge and discuss different religious beliefs. So why put down people who are here doing just that? Are you afraid you may be wrong?

This Forum is named “Catholic Answers” - it’s for people who want to know what the Catholic Church teaches on various subjects.

It would be very confusing if someone were to post non-Catholic answers or even just their personal opinions on “Catholic Answers,” don’t you think?

 

[Mickey]

Here is some of the Word the Catholic Church doesn’t teach:

Matt 7:1,2
Judge not, that you be not judged. For with the judgment you pronounce you will be judged, and the measure you give will be the measure you get.

 

[jmcrae]

Here is some of the Word the Catholic Church doesn’t teach: {…}

All of these subjects are addressed in the Universal Catechism of 1994.

May I recommend that you get yourself an edition that has a good topical index.

 

[Saul.Tentmaker]

Here is some of the Word the Catholic Church doesn’t teach:
(Matthew 5:44) “But I say this to you: love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you

**CCC 1933 **This same duty extends to those who think or act differently from us. The teaching of Christ goes so far as to require the forgiveness of offenses. He extends the commandment of love, which is that of the New Law, to all enemies. Liberation in the spirit of the Gospel is incompatible with hatred of one’s enemy as a person, but not with hatred of the evil that he does as an enemy.

Matthew 12:31) “And so I tell you, every one of men’s sins and blasphemies will be forgiven, but blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven.”

**CCC 1864 **“Therefore I tell you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven.” There are no limits to the mercy of God, but anyone who deliberately refuses to accept his mercy by repenting, rejects the forgiveness of his sins and the salvation offered by the Holy Spirit. Such hardness of heart can lead to final impenitence and eternal loss.

(Matthew 6:19) “Do not store up treasures for yourselves on earth, where moths and woodworms destroy them and thieves can break in and steal.”

(Luke 12:33) “Sell your possessions and give alms. Get yourselves purses that do not wear out, treasure that will not fail you, in Heaven where no thief can reach it and no moth destroy it. For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also.”

(Luke 14:33) “So in the same way, none of you can be my disciple unless he gives up all his possessions.”

**CCC 944 **The life consecrated to God is characterized by the public profession of the evangelical counsels of poverty, chastity, and obedience, in a stable state of life recognized by the Church.

(1 John 3: 3 - 9) “Surely everyone who entertains this hope must purify himself, must try to be as pure as Christ. Any one who sins at all breaks the law, because to sin is to break the law. Now you know that He appeared in order to abolish sin, and that in Him there is no sin; anyone who lives in God does not sin, and anyone who sins has never seen Him or known Him. My children do not let anyone lead you astray; to live a holy life is to be holy just as He is holy; to lead a sinful life is to belong to the Devil, since the Devil was a sinner from the beginning. It was to undo all that the Devil has done that the Son of God appeared. No one who has been begotten by God sins: because God’s seed remains inside him, he cannot sin when he has been begotten by God.”

**
CCC 2065 **Ever since St. Augustine, the Ten Commandments have occupied a predominant place in the catechesis of baptismal candidates and the faithful. In the fifteenth century, the custom arose of expressing the commandments of the Decalogue in rhymed formulae, easy to memorize and in positive form. They are still in use today. The catechisms of the Church have often expounded Christian morality by following the order of the Ten Commandments.

 

[RCCDefender]

I know you believe that, but there are many, many good knowledgeable people in the world that don’t. I personally don’t know or care. What determines if we get to heaven is if we hear the Word of the Lord and live it.

What good is it to be a good, knowledgeable person if you aren’t a member of Christ’s One Flock? You should personally care.

When a scriptures is quoted where Jesus tell us to do something and people have to search for ways, excuses the get around doing what he says, that tells me that they’re not living the Word of God.

MMHmm, oh yes like in John 6 where Jesus tells us over an over to eat His flesh and drink His blood so that He will abide in us. Get around that one by saying that He was only speaking symbolically? Or how about Matthew 16:18, where Jesus establishes the Church on Peter? Or Matthew 18:17 where Jesus says if there is a disagreement to take it to the Church, and if the person won’t listen to the Church to treat him like a tax collector?

By the way I thought this forum was to challenge and discuss different religious beliefs. So why put down people who are here doing just that? Are you afraid you may be wrong?

No, dear, I’m not putting anyone down. It’s when people come here pretending to ask an innocent little question and then try to knock their feet out from under them (unsuccesfully, I might add) with their own personal brand of theology. That’s what I don’t like. Am I afraid I might be wrong? Hardly! Jesus did not lie. He established His Church on Peter and told His Church the gates of Hell would not prevail against it. He sent His Holy Spirit to lead His Church into all Truth. In Christ’s Church I have nothing to fear.

 

[mercygate]

Here is some of the Word the Catholic Church doesn’t teach:
(Matthew 5:44) “But I say this to you: love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you

Excuse me? How do you figure that this is not a Catholic teaching?

KathyH:

Matthew 12:31) “And so I tell you, every one of men’s sins and blasphemies will be forgiven, but blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven.”

Or this? I have to admit, this is not one of the run-of-the-mill accusations we usually get. How do you figure that the Catholic Church teaches that blasphemy against the Holy Spirit is a forgiveable offense?

(Matthew 6:19) “Do not store up treasures for yourselves on earth, where moths and woodworms destroy them and thieves can break in and steal.”

Let me guess. Catholic churches are often beautiful and built at considerable expense because people put “their treasure where there heart is” – in their worship of God, and the Vatican itself is a treasury of great art, so that means the Catholic Church is “storing up for itself treasures on earth” which Catholics think will can save souls?" Is that how you are judging the Church with this verse?

(Luke 12:33) “Sell your possessions and give alms. Get yourselves purses that do not wear out, treasure that will not fail you, in Heaven where no thief can reach it and no moth destroy it. For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also.”

Um. Do you know how many Catholics through the centuries have lived this to the letter? Ever hear of St. Francis of Assisi? Blessed Teresa of Calcutta? Give alms? Catholic charities throughout the centuries and to this very day give more “alms” to the needy than any other single eleemosynary entity.

Kathy: do you live in a house? Did Peter live in a house? Did he have a boat? Do you drive a car? Have a TV?

(Luke 14:33) “So in the same way, none of you can be my disciple unless he gives up all his possessions.”

Last time I looked, these passages had not been removed from the Catholic Bible. Are you saying the Church does not teach that spiritual treasures are greater than material ones? Or that the Church teaches the health & wealth Gospel? If so, then you do not know what the Catholic Church teaches.

(1 John 3: 3 - 9) “Surely everyone who entertains this hope must purify himself, must try to be as pure as Christ. Any one who sins at all breaks the law, because to sin is to break the law. Now you know that He appeared in order to abolish sin, and that in Him there is no sin; anyone who lives in God does not sin, and anyone who sins has never seen Him or known Him. My children do not let anyone lead you astray; to live a holy life is to be holy just as He is holy; to lead a sinful life is to belong to the Devil, since the Devil was a sinner from the beginning. It was to undo all that the Devil has done that the Son of God appeared. No one who has been begotten by God sins: because God’s seed remains inside him, he cannot sin when he has been begotten by God.”

Ah. The Catholic Church has sinners in it. Therefore we do not teach that Christ has come to free us from sin. Is that it? So, if these passages mean that nobody who is in Christ will ever sin, then how is it that John, in that same letter (5:16-17), tells us to pray for those whose sin is not mortal? (Would I be correct in guessing that you believe there is no distinction between mortal and non-mortal sin, despite this Scripture?) And why in the world would Jesus give us a prayer that says, “Forgive us our debts as we forgive . . .” if he thought we would never sin?

You are engaging typical fuzz-ball anti-Catholic verse-picking that we see time and again. You seemed to have begun here in a spirit of earnest dialog. But really, girl! We’ve heard it all before. Some of us used to believe this stuff. and it doesn’t hold up under the full weight of Scripture.

I’m going to come off confrontational here, but if you’re going to attack the Church for not teaching the whole of Scripture, why don’t you start with those books that you took out of your Bible?

 

[Makerteacher]

Here is some of the Word the Catholic Church doesn’t teach:
(Matthew 5:44) “But I say this to you: love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you
Matthew 12:31) “And so I tell you, every one of men’s sins and blasphemies will be forgiven, but blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven.”
QUOTE]

etc etc ----I cut the quote short to save space.

How can you claim the Catholic Church “does not teach” these parts of Scriptures when ALL of the Scriptures (thats 7 more books than in your Bible, BTW) are read aloud at Mass?

What exactly do you mean by “does not teach?”

 

[mlchance]

…my problem with the Church is; it doesn’t teach the whole Word of God.

Untrue. The deficiency is yours, not the Church’s, which was established by Jesus as the pillar and bulwark of truth.

– Mark L. Chance.

 

[Texas_Roofer]

Here is some of the Word the Catholic Church doesn’t teach:…

Hi Kathy
Can you give us a quick run down of the history of your bible? Particularly from Jesus through 1600 AD - thanks

 

[Sir_Knight]

When a scriptures is quoted where Jesus tell us to do something and people have to search for ways, excuses the get around doing what he says, that tells me that they’re not living the Word of God.

And are they living the Word of God when they disobey the teachings found in Heb. 13:7-17 which commands us obey our church leaders?

And let us not forget Matthew 16:19 – “And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.” … which grants the Church absolute authority – I see no “if’s”, “and’s” or “but’s” in that statement from Christ.

 

[Milliardo]

The Bible is the Word of God, and its teachings are of God, but Paul calling himself father wasn’t a teaching.

Plainly Paul is practically telling his audience–I am your father in faith. It was more than just a teaching really; it’s a declaration. He is announcing to them: look at me, learn from me; I am your father in faith. It’s a teaching: he’s teaching his audience to look at him then as their father. Nothing could be much more plainer than that. If I tell my son, “Look at me; I am your father”, I am teaching my son to recognize me as his parent. I am conditioning him to see me in that light. It’s the same with Paul: he’s conditioning them to regard him that way.

Now before Jesus told us not to call any man father, many people were called father. Jesus came here to complete the law and form a new covenant with us, and gave us some new laws, and one of them was not to call any man father. Now Paul my not have understood that meant he couldn’t even call himself father, like I said he wasn’t perfect either.

If you are so literal, then we should not also call people as “teachers”, since in that same passage He forbade it to do so, yet I have yet to see a Protestant actually forbid the title Sunday school teachers. So, is the objection then for the term “Father” actually Biblical in the Protestant sense, or is it merely selective use of one verse in order to make the Catholic faith look untrue? Again, the other terms Jesus forbade are still being used by Protestants; clearly common sense should dictate that they shouldn’t be used as well, since Jesus forbid them.

 

[KathyH]

What good is it to be a good, knowledgeable person if you aren’t a member of Christ’s One Flock? You should personally care.

MMHmm, oh yes like in John 6 where Jesus tells us over an over to eat His flesh and drink His blood so that He will abide in us. Get around that one by saying that He was only speaking symbolically? Or how about Matthew 16:18, where Jesus establishes the Church on Peter? Or Matthew 18:17 where Jesus says if there is a disagreement to take it to the Church, and if the person won’t listen to the Church to treat him like a tax collector?
I .don’t have a problem with any of the scriptures you quoted. We just disagree on what church it is that Jesus established

No, dear, I’m not putting anyone down. It’s when people come here pretending to ask an innocent little question and then try to knock their feet out from under them (unsuccesfully, I might add) with their own personal brand of theology. That’s what I don’t like. Am I afraid I might be wrong? Hardly! Jesus did not lie. He established His Church on Peter and told His Church the gates of Hell would not prevail against it. He sent His Holy Spirit to lead His Church into all Truth. In Christ’s Church I have nothing to fear.

Then you should not get upset. You should be thankful that you have the opportunity to defend what you believe.

 

[KathyH]

Plainly Paul is practically telling his audience–I am your father in faith. It was more than just a teaching really; it’s a declaration. He is announcing to them: look at me, learn from me; I am your father in faith. It’s a teaching: he’s teaching his audience to look at him then as their father. Nothing could be much more plainer than that. If I tell my son, “Look at me; I am your father”, I am teaching my son to recognize me as his parent. I am conditioning him to see me in that light. It’s the same with Paul: he’s conditioning them to regard him that way.

If you are so literal, then we should not also call people as “teachers”, since in that same passage He forbade it to do so, yet I have yet to see a Protestant actually forbid the title Sunday school teachers. So, is the objection then for the term “Father” actually Biblical in the Protestant sense, or is it merely selective use of one verse in order to make the Catholic faith look untrue? Again, the other terms Jesus forbade are still being used by Protestants; clearly common sense should dictate that they shouldn’t be used as well, since Jesus forbid them.

No what Paul is plainly saying is you are my children I gave birth to you in the Faith. His way of emphasizing that fact was saying he was their father. He wasn’t writing his letters to us. I think Paul could have used a better way emphasizing that he gave birth to their faith. In fact it wasn’t Paul who gave birth to their faith it was God. No one can come to Jesus unless the father calls them.

No I’m not a protestant, and I would not call anyone teacher, nor would I call anyone reverend, etc.

 

[JaneFrances]

I know you believe that, but there are many, many good knowledgeable people in the world that don’t. I personally don’t know or care.

That is precisely the difference between “us” and you, then, Kathy. We do care. We care very deeply. We care that you would come to know the Truth of our Savior, Jesus Christ. We care that your heart would be softened to see Him in his Body, the Church. We care that you would stop your anti-Catholic bias and actually have an invested interest in the salvation of souls, rather than propaganda and rhetoric.

We care, Kathy, because we also follow the word of God. We believe His holy Word when St. Paul writes:

Just as each of us has one body with many members, and these members do not all have the same function, so in Christ we who are many form one body, and each member belongs to all the others. (Romans 12:4-5)

We care because we know that if you are, indeed, a member of His Body, the Church, then it is our resposiblity to love you because you belong to us.

What determines if we get to heaven is if we hear the Word of the Lord and live it.

Catholic teaching would not disagree. What is your point?

When a scriptures is quoted where Jesus tell us to do something and people have to search for ways, excuses the get around doing what he says, that tells me that they’re not living the Word of God.

We are also called to to not judge.

Thank you for your concern.

Tell us, Kathy, how exactly do you interpret John 6?

By the way I thought this forum was to challenge and discuss different religious beliefs.

You are absolutely correct. We are trying to give you answers to your challenges. You seem to be more concerned with preaching to us than with discussion.

We have been very explicit in our answers. We have given you a multitude of Scripture to explain our position. Your response has been: “well, maybe Paul was a sinner. Maybe he was wrong.” That is weak. You either believe the word of God or you don’t.

So why put down people who are here doing just that?

I understand that you feel overwhelmed by the defensive responses you have gotten here. You must understand, however, that you came here to offensively challenge the Catholic Faith. You came to us. We are Catholic. We are not putting you down. We are merely defending our faith.

Are you afraid you may be wrong?

There are many here who are searching for answers. Questioning does not equal fear. There is a reason you are here and, believe it or not, it may be for the salvation of your own soul. Stay a while. Simmer down. Put away the shotgun. Don’t pull out every arguement you’ve ever heard all at once. If you truly are interested in why we call our priests “Father,” how about you start a new thread on it.

Give us your Scriptural references. Your historical resources. Your reasoning and interpretations. We’ll discuss it. That’s what we’re hear for.

 

[Milliardo]

He wasn’t writing his letters to us.

If that is so, then why do you follow the other points of Paul but not this one? After all, his letters are for specific communities, whose issues were confined within those communities. In essence then, those letters should not apply to us present-day Christians, yet that does not appear to be what Protestantism teaches. If Paul is then is the father of one, could it be that he is the father of the other communities he wrote to?

In fact it wasn’t Paul who gave birth to their faith it was God.

Yes, but who taught them? In essence then, he gave birth to their faith. Or to make it plainer, God taught through Paul.

No I’m not a protestant, and I would not call anyone teacher, nor would I call anyone reverend, etc.

What are you then? If you would not call someone teacher, what would you call him? For instance, what would you refer to, say, a gradeschool teacher? An educator? Hhmm…but that’s just synonym for the term teacher; same thing then. Professor? Another synonym. Or would you call him by Mr./Ms. so-and-so, which is okay, though it still doesn’t hide the fact that he’s a teacher.

 

[jmcrae]

… I would not call anyone teacher, nor would I call anyone reverend, etc.

This must curtail your ability to communicate, pretty severely. What do you do, call everyone by their first name? What do you do at school reunions when one of your teachers comes up and asks to be introduced to your husband or friend? “This is my …” what?

We have these titles for a reason. When Jesus told people not to use titles for themselves, He did not mean that we had to cut off our ability to discuss our relationships - rather, He was reminding fathers that only God the Father is Father without also being a son. That only God is a Teacher without also being a student, and that only God is Master without also being someone’s servant.

The rest of us need to remember that although we may have positions of authority, we are not God - and in tandem with our positions of authority, we also have positions of service.

Jesus’ commands in that passage could be summed up by saying “Do not think that you are God,” and “Do not try to occupy God’s place in someone else’s life.” Father, remember that you are a son. Teacher, remember that you are a student. Master, remember that you are a servant.

 

[jmcrae]

PS: I heard the funniest story not too long ago - I don’t think it was supposed to be funny, though.

I was having a conversation with a Protestant on this issue of “call no man Father” and he was proudly bragging to me how he had been the MC at some function or other - anyhow there was a Catholic priest in attendance there, and so instead of introducing him as “Father Soandso,” he bragged to me that he had called him “Mr. Soandso,” and he was so proud of himself for doing this. (I don’t know what he thought he actually accomplished - the priest probably just figured he was an idiot.)

I asked him, “Well, doesn’t that passage also forbid calling anyone “Mister” (which is another spelling of Master)? Didn’t you just replace one forbidden title with another one?”

He was silent for about a week, and then when he came back to the topic, he went on a really long song and dance about how “mister” comes from a word meaning “lord” and it’s not bad to call someone “lord” because Sarah called Abraham “lord” - anyhow, I just left him to it, because with all that Bible study, I’m sure he’ll eventually discover that Jesus Himself called people Father, and that the Apostles often used a variety honorific titles for themselves and for each other in their conversations and communicatio - including Father, among others.