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louisquinze
Guest
Because we are the cause of evil - human beings - there is no-one else to blame (wouldn’t that be nice?) and what God is waiting for is for us to be part of the reign of God - not the reign of our egos.
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phaleonopsis
Guest
I would like to say that I certainly know that the devil, the fallen angel Lucifer, is indeed the source of all evil. It is through his incredible jealousy that he wishes us not to go to heaven. He knows what heaven is like, indeed he staged a war with God in order to rule heaven! Heaven will NEVER be his. He is trying to stop everyone else from going there!
may we pray every day that we are able to see the wondrous joys that God has to offer us for our pains, trials and tribulations in his name!
God bless you and us all.
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louisquinze
Guest
Hi
There is always a problem when we take allegorical stories literally - the war is the war we wage on our self-centredness -working at being able to love ourselves, others and the rest of creation as God loves them. To do this we need to hound the evil of self out of our self. The story quoted is picture language and designed to explain the provenance of evil - typical of prescientific ways of describing the world we live in - not wrong at the level at which it is designed to work which is not the literal level.
It is much easier to live with ‘the devil made me do it’ idea - that’s just an excuse. The reality is, we give into our worst motives and self-centredness ( me,me,me!!!) in order to win, whatever the issue.
There is always a problem when we take allegorical stories literally - the war is the war we wage on our self-centredness -working at being able to love ourselves, others and the rest of creation as God loves them. To do this we need to hound the evil of self out of our self. The story quoted is picture language and designed to explain the provenance of evil - typical of prescientific ways of describing the world we live in - not wrong at the level at which it is designed to work which is not the literal level.
It is much easier to live with ‘the devil made me do it’ idea - that’s just an excuse. The reality is, we give into our worst motives and self-centredness ( me,me,me!!!) in order to win, whatever the issue.
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phaleonopsis
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phaleonopsis
Guest
Not really sure that i understand what you are trying to say?
perhaps your answer could be broken down in 2 parts,
part 1 being perhaps the literal interpretation of our liturgy, and here I must ask you, therefore, whether you believe that angels do exist?
and part 2, ‘the devil made me do it?’
I think that as Catholics, we are VERY good at blaming ourselves about EVERYthing, we have a guilt factor inbedded in our conscience, but we do seem to be diverting from the title somewhat.
I thank you for your insight.
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ateista
Guest
I am not “grasping” at anything, since I stand firmly on the grounds of facts and reason.
These go hand-in-hand. If you say that I am not supposed to (based on reason and logic) assert that God is not benevolent, then you also cannot assert (based on reason and logic) that God is benevolent.
You accepted this when you proclaimed that you accept this assertion based upon faith in a divine revelation. Which is fine. But your claim is not based on facts and logic, and as such it is irrelevant.
Based upon purely facts and logic your hypothesis (that God is benevolent) is just as unsupported as mine. Actually it is much less supported, since the available “test results” contradict your hypothesis.
Reality is different. There is no “universal” moral code. However, for the sake of this discussion I will accept it, since in this thread I base my argument on the teachings of the CC.
That is not accurate. There is no “universal” moral code which happens to coincide with the Church’s teachings on sexual issues (even if there “might” be one otherwise). As a matter of fact a sizable portion of Christians - and specifically Catholics - vehemently disagree with the CC’s teaching on birth control (for example). Therefore into their “soul” it is not engraved that some sexual practices are “sinful”.
Why would I have to produce a “specific” example? The Church declares the general “guidelines”, and does not bother with the specific instances.
To recap the agrument:
- The CC declares that it is the heir of Jesus, and its techings are inerrant in the questions of faith and morals.
- The CC also declares that there are certain mortal sins (some of them like artificial birth control, abortion and certain sexual practices). Most of these are not considered “sinful” by non-Christians, as a matter of fact they consider the stance of the CC quite unacceptable and “sexually deviant”. (Therefore it is not written on their “soul” as sinful practices).
- The CC also declares that if one dies in the state of unrepented mortal sin then the person will go to hell.
- From these it logically follows that my example holds. It is obvious that some people will die in the state of unrepented mortal sins, since they
b) never would have thought that some of their practices are deemed “sinful”
c) therefore they will never “ask” for “pardon”
d) consequently they will go to hell.
Your argument: namely that we are never privy to the fate of a specific indivual is just a cop-out - and quite a modern one at that. In older ages such a wishy-washy declaration would have been impossible.
Either the Church is in the position to inerrantly declare such important issues, or not. If it is, than my argument holds. If it is not - as you claim - then what is the relevance of any of the Church’s utterings?
Your position is not easy. To argue against the fate of certain individuals undermines the relevance of the Catholic Church. Why should anyone care what the Church’s teachings are, if its teachings cannot be relied on? If there is possible “salvation” for unrepentant sinners outside the Church then why should anyone even contemplate the Church as a source of information on matters of faith and morals? Just because the Church says so?
When push comes to shove - as in this thread - allegedly the Church will backpedal and admit that its teachings are not inerrant.
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grampswayne
Guest
Expand on the illogical and irrational polemics and religious world-view of many Christians who undoubtedly would endorse an All-Loving God yet subscribe to a belief that this one and same God also created or allowed for his opposite to emerge in the form of an embodiment of evil, the Devil or Satan: Upon which all the forces of good must fight while they assign this evil to the non-believers as they define them and have throughout history by instilling fear and hatred of others who they see as different from themselves-in other words, not children of God. He is either All Loving or he is not-He can’t be the embodiment of evil as well. We are all then His children or we are not. If we are then we are also all loving, being so made of the same stuff as He. The only mitigating circumstance then is His gift or curse of Free Will which then allows us to choose His way or some other. His opposite cannot exist as a “separate entity” for all things must be of Him and thus all loving as well. If evil actions do exist in the world, as they surely do, they therefore cannot be of an entity that is evil, for nothing but God exists. Evil then is a consequence of His children not “knowing” they are of this All loving stuff of God. Most Christians acknowledge God as All-loving and that He gave us all free will. In other words the ability to choose His love or choose not to be loving is a choice made of God’s gift of free will which “allows” men to do evil as a consequence of that freedom of choice and will. Our conscious choice then is the means by which the evil actions of men enter into this deliberate world of opposites which is essential for learning. There can be no learning without a discernment of right and wrong actions or good and bad ends. No learning without the ability to choose from a variety of options and situations. No learning without consequences for “falling away from (sinning)” a loving way of being. Free choice/will then is the means by which learning/knowledge and ultimately wisdom are accrued.
In all of the 2000 plus subjects who have now recalled their life between lives to Dr. Michael Newton and those he has trained (see his 2-volume work, “Journey of Souls” and “Destiny of Souls: Case Studies of Life Between Lives”), not one has yet reported that any soul is inherently evil or has any evil intent, on the contrary, they all suggest that this is not possible.
When we observe or witness, from the vantage point of our True Self beyond mind, the insidious nature of our false mind generated ego-self, the pretender to our identity, we can begin the process of re-identification with that which we are. The following is the latest understanding of our true spiritual nature and identity based upon 35 years of research and over 7000 hypnotic regressions with some 2000 subjects (Dr. Michael Newton’s discovery that we all have memories of our life between lives reported in his two volume work cited above) in which his subjects report their activities as discarnate souls.
Here are a few of the key findings he calls the “Way of Souls”: Earth is a place of great beauty and joy but also harbors ignorance, hate, and suffering that are man-made combined with natural planetary disasters over which we have little control. Coping with these positive and negative elements on Earth is by design. This planet is a testing ground for souls rather that being a place of evil, demonic influence from outside our world. Spiritual malevolence does not exist within the divine order of love and compassion that comprises our spiritual origins. With over 2000 mostly Christian clients reporting, all have confirmed that their are no evil spirits or “Devil or Satan” anywhere in the Spirit World (extradimensional realm/heaven) with unbroken consistency and not one has contradicted the other…or themselves with subsequent confirming regressions.
Personal enlightenment emanates from within each of us and endows humans with the capability to reach our own divine power without intermediaries.
And finally, no earthly religious deities are seen in the spirit world by returning souls. A soul’s closest connection with the divine is with their personal spirit guide and members of a council of benevolent counselors who monitor the affairs of each soul. Souls from earth feel and sense the presence of a god-like Oversoul or Source emanating from above the wise beings who make up individual councils.
If you would like to know more about the Spirit World of our birth and man’s eternal spiritual nature from his over 2000 case studies (all recorded and catalogued over 40 years), please let me know or email me directly at grampswayne@hotmail.com. More case studies are coming from his students around the world.
Your Brother in Spirit,
Wayne
Code:
In addition to blindly accepting what is written and interpreted in the biblical texts regarding a so-called “fallen” being of darkness who seduces man into doing evil in the world, people who are unable to accept their choices in deviating from what they know to be contrary to right action or divine will or who are simply unable to control their baser urges or desires as a result of either their life experience, subconscious conditioning, reactive mind or abnormal mental state/disease are therefore naturally and deceivably drawn to an “exterior” source of influence beyond their “control” as an exculpatory excuse for not taking responsibility for their own actions. As not only fallible human beings but also imperfect souls we are all capable of erring from even our own code of ethics. We all can be tempted by or drawn to indulgences of any of the so-called Seven Deadly Sins and others. What is important for us as both a spiritual and human being is the acceptance of responsibility for our own actions and the willingness to pay the consequences that inexorable follow from them. When we attribute or assign our own ignorance and weaknesses to anything or anyone outside ourselves we abrogate our responsibility to Him and the hierarchy of souls who sent us.When we observe or witness, from the vantage point of our True Self beyond mind, the insidious nature of our false mind generated ego-self, the pretender to our identity, we can begin the process of re-identification with that which we are. The following is the latest understanding of our true spiritual nature and identity based upon 35 years of research and over 7000 hypnotic regressions with some 2000 subjects (Dr. Michael Newton’s discovery that we all have memories of our life between lives reported in his two volume work cited above) in which his subjects report their activities as discarnate souls.
Here are a few of the key findings he calls the “Way of Souls”: Earth is a place of great beauty and joy but also harbors ignorance, hate, and suffering that are man-made combined with natural planetary disasters over which we have little control. Coping with these positive and negative elements on Earth is by design. This planet is a testing ground for souls rather that being a place of evil, demonic influence from outside our world. Spiritual malevolence does not exist within the divine order of love and compassion that comprises our spiritual origins. With over 2000 mostly Christian clients reporting, all have confirmed that their are no evil spirits or “Devil or Satan” anywhere in the Spirit World (extradimensional realm/heaven) with unbroken consistency and not one has contradicted the other…or themselves with subsequent confirming regressions.
Personal enlightenment emanates from within each of us and endows humans with the capability to reach our own divine power without intermediaries.
And finally, no earthly religious deities are seen in the spirit world by returning souls. A soul’s closest connection with the divine is with their personal spirit guide and members of a council of benevolent counselors who monitor the affairs of each soul. Souls from earth feel and sense the presence of a god-like Oversoul or Source emanating from above the wise beings who make up individual councils.
If you would like to know more about the Spirit World of our birth and man’s eternal spiritual nature from his over 2000 case studies (all recorded and catalogued over 40 years), please let me know or email me directly at grampswayne@hotmail.com. More case studies are coming from his students around the world.
Your Brother in Spirit,
Wayne
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Q_Bee
Guest
Is inerrancy really the issue? If the Holy Spirit is available as guide to any person who sincerely prays and wherever two or more are gathered in Christ’s name, then every believing person has the same pipeline to the Holy Spirit.
We can look at history and see that when the church felt it was losing ground it instituted new doctrines and upped the ante in stating its power so as to keep people inline.
WE are ‘the church’, but there is no venue for the voice of the general population to be heard, so the true voice of the Spirit is being left out of the equation so there can be so true Sensus Fidelium. There’s a lot of theory, but in actual practice, how does it operate?
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ateista
Guest
That only applies to Christians. It does not apply to Muslims, pagans, heathens or atheists (or a whole lot of other non-Christians). In my example I posited someone, who dies in pain and who is in unrepented mortal sin - according to the teachings of the CC.
Since the basic argument is that God only allows “necessary” pain and suffering, when the position of this hypothetical person is analyzed it is obvious that his painful way of expiration does not give him a “greater reward” in this life.
It is also the Church’s teaching that he will go to hell, therefore there is no “greater reward” for him in the afterlife. As such his extra suffering is not compensated for him by any kind of reward - therefore his pain is not necessary (to achieve some unspecified greater good). Finally, if the pain is “rewarded” by giving someone else some “reward”, then this person is dehumanized into a “teaching tool”, which is contradicted by the other teaching of the Church, namely that every human being has a basic dignity.
The consequence of this example is that there is unnecessary pain and suffering, thus contradicting the assumption that God is benevolent.
If there is a way to salvation for unrepentant sinners, then another basic teaching of the Church is in jeopardy. There is no way out of this dilemma. Either the Church is wrong (in the question of faith and morals), or God is not benelovent. Pick your choice.
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Q_Bee
Guest
There are three words in the Bible that are all equally translated as “hell”:That only applies to Christians. It does not apply to Muslims, pagans, heathens or atheists (or a whole lot of other non-Christians). In my example I posited someone, who dies in pain and who is in unrepented mortal sin - according to the teachings of the CC.
Since the basic argument is that God only allows “necessary” pain and suffering, when the position of this hypothetical person is analyzed it is obvious that his painful way of expiration does not give him a “greater reward” in this life.
It is also the Church’s teaching that he will go to hell, therefore there is no “greater reward” for him in the afterlife. As such his extra suffering is not compensated for him by any kind of reward - therefore his pain is not necessary (to achieve some unspecified greater good). Finally, if the pain is “rewarded” by giving someone else some “reward”, then this person is dehumanized into a “teaching tool”, which is contradicted by the other teaching of the Church, namely that every human being has a basic dignity.
The consequence of this example is that there is unnecessary pain and suffering, thus contradicting the assumption that God is benevolent.
If there is a way to salvation for unrepentant sinners, then another basic teaching of the Church is in jeopardy. There is no way out of this dilemma. Either the Church is wrong (in the question of faith and morals), or God is not benelovent. Pick your choice.
The Hebrew word Sheol - [the place where the dead sleep] or ‘in the earth’
Gehenna - [Valley of Hinnom] the garbage dump outside Jerusalem’s city wall where the corpses of dead animals were incinerated to prevent pestulence, and
Hades - the Greek mythological place of everlasting torment.
Which of these three concepts is really in play?
When Jesus spoke of Gehenna, he seemed to be saying that those who live like animals, refusing to live ‘in the spirit’, choose to live on the animal plane and will, like animals, be disposed of as corporeal waste since they have not chosen a higher human/spiritual existance.
I really can’t see how a Greco-Roman Hades is really under consideration. I don’t see where Jesus was taking about such a place since he was Jewish.
How can this variance be reconciled to RC teachings on everlasting “hell”?
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ateista
Guest
I am not the one who can answer your question.
But the teaching of the RCC is that humans have an “immoral soul” which even God (with his omnipotence) cannot destroy. Jesus also spoke of the place where the fire is not quenched. Today, in this “politically correct” age, it is customary to “downplay” the graphical description of hell (which is found in the Bible) and it is more usual to talk about it as a place of “separation” from God - which is of course contradicted by the assertion of God’s omnipresence.
I am also not sure how this helps the original question of this thread.
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Q_Bee
Guest
Sure, you can answer! The RCC can only create doctrinal statements concerning “hell” if there is biblical precedent on which to base it. So, the three words, Sheol, Gehenna, and Hades are the references from which any doctrine must be formed.
I’d say that the only “dogma” we are bound to is what is found in the Nicene Creed (which we might write differently today, since some of the issues of 325 CE are no longer in play); all else is left to matters of conscience. We just need to dig in on some scholarly research in order to have informed conscience.
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rinnie
Guest
Oh Ateista you are back, glad to see you had a safe trip.
I did learn alot when you were gone, On ewtn Father was talking about if you don’t have FAITH, you will never understand the ways of Christ.
He said that if people don’t have faith they could never even begin to comprehend the teaching’s of Christ.
All they do is take the truth of Christ’s teaching and twist it around, and take all the true meaning away, for they will never understand the teachings of the Church.
He said they will twist the word of Christ around and try to make it fit into their line of reasoning, because they can not understand it. Nor ever will.
So I can see now (no offense) you will never ever understand the teaching of Christ no matter how long or hard you study. Because what comes easy to us, you will never see. And no matter what we do or say you will twist, and confuse it to make sense to you. That is why he said people take the word of Christ and question it, and take the true meaning away. Because the true meaning just cannot become clear without faith. So i see now no matter what we say or do will be senseless because without faith forget it. IT IS IMPOSSIBLE. WITHOUT FAITH NOTHING IS POSSIBLE FOR A PERSON WHO DOES NOT BELIEVE IN CHRIST. So as much as you say you want to believe, or try you really dont, because if you were sincere, God would help you. And its like Father is reading your threads because i swear everything he said is true. You take one thing someone says and try to give it another meaning, I really believe that you cant help it, and i really can see now that you really dont believe. And will try to take people that do, and trick them, and comfuse them, because you know no other way. But again I can see that maybe you are really trying but it won’t work, it impossible. Bottom line you CHOOSE to not believe, and you Choose to do this, and only you know the real reason why. But I will pray that somehow someway you can see what we see, Because it would only bring more Joy and Happiness in your life.
I did learn alot when you were gone, On ewtn Father was talking about if you don’t have FAITH, you will never understand the ways of Christ.
He said that if people don’t have faith they could never even begin to comprehend the teaching’s of Christ.
All they do is take the truth of Christ’s teaching and twist it around, and take all the true meaning away, for they will never understand the teachings of the Church.
He said they will twist the word of Christ around and try to make it fit into their line of reasoning, because they can not understand it. Nor ever will.
So I can see now (no offense) you will never ever understand the teaching of Christ no matter how long or hard you study. Because what comes easy to us, you will never see. And no matter what we do or say you will twist, and confuse it to make sense to you. That is why he said people take the word of Christ and question it, and take the true meaning away. Because the true meaning just cannot become clear without faith. So i see now no matter what we say or do will be senseless because without faith forget it. IT IS IMPOSSIBLE. WITHOUT FAITH NOTHING IS POSSIBLE FOR A PERSON WHO DOES NOT BELIEVE IN CHRIST. So as much as you say you want to believe, or try you really dont, because if you were sincere, God would help you. And its like Father is reading your threads because i swear everything he said is true. You take one thing someone says and try to give it another meaning, I really believe that you cant help it, and i really can see now that you really dont believe. And will try to take people that do, and trick them, and comfuse them, because you know no other way. But again I can see that maybe you are really trying but it won’t work, it impossible. Bottom line you CHOOSE to not believe, and you Choose to do this, and only you know the real reason why. But I will pray that somehow someway you can see what we see, Because it would only bring more Joy and Happiness in your life.
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Q_Bee
Guest
Who is the “you” this post is addressing?
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rinnie
Guest
Ateista
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Q_Bee
Guest
Isn’t faith a gift? If one doesn’t receive this gift or doesn’t feel its presence, then, it seems to me, all the talk in the world might not bring it forth.
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rinnie
Guest
Exactly, but it is also a gift given freely by Our Lord, All you have to do is believe, and ask and it will be given to you. But there is no way you can have God prove his Love for you if you dont believe. Of course Our Lord does prove his love for us everyday. But it can not and will not be demanded of him. That is something Ateista cant understand, He will only believe in God in his words (on his terms) and it just does not work that way.
There is no way that he will understand our feelings and deep feelings that we have for God, because he has no faith.
But Yes I agree Faith is a gift, but there is no one in this world who cannot receive it if he truely wants it. God does not want anyone to be without this gift. It is our choice to accept this free gift or reject, and Ateista chooses to reject it, and because he chooses to deny it, he deny’s it exists for others. He wants proof, and we will or cannot give it to him. All we can do is pray that someday he somehow, someway, see’s the light which he also denies that we have, He want’s us to prove something that we feel, if he can’t see it, It is not there. So the only thing he can do is turn thing’s around which are the words and way’s of our faith, because he knows that Faith cannot be seen.
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Schnitz
Guest
“Faith is not something to grasp, it is a state to grow into.”
-Mohandas Gandhi
-Mohandas Gandhi
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ateista
Guest
Thank you for your kind words. Yes, the trip was great, I enjoyed it very much.
Well, there are no teachings of “Christ”, however there are teachings of humans (Christians and Catholics) and that is quite a different matter. I don’t need faith to evaluate those “teachings”. And the evaluation is negative. These teachings make no sense.
It is pretty “insulting” to say that I “twist” the meanings… (though I am sure you did not intend it to be insulting). I use words and expressions according to their commonly accepted meanings. For example one is benevolent if he acts in the best interest of others. What could be more “in the best interest” of humans (according to Catholicism) then to help them to get “saved”? And God does nothing to help them - as we can observe. He does not interfere when someone makes a bad choice, for example. No special “warning” is given.
Nonsense. I cannot “choose” to believe in what you say, just as you cannot “choose” to believe in the Flying Spaghetti Monster". Beliefs are not subject to volitional decisions.
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ateista
Guest
On the contrary, it is not “given” to me. To “ask” for faith presupposes that one already has “faith”. What you say is a “circulous viciosus” - a circular reasoning.
My “terms” are nothing special. I do not try to “corner” God. I ask for (or “demand” if you prefer) the same method, whether you assert something about God or another human being.
Actually, I understand it quite well, I just don’t share it.
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