Why doesn't God heal homosexuals?

[Andy_82]

No, I’m not denying that different sex acts are by their very nature, different sex acts. I’m arguing that the context in which they occur is the point of this whole conversation. Which, considering your professing to be an instructor in First Principles, makes no sense.

 

[Edward_H]

Go study the Church’s teach on moral theology…you will run across a decomposition of moral actions, and you will see how “intention”, “object of the moral act” and “circumstances” support precisely what I’ve said.

Under no circumstances is SS a good. Opposite sex can be a great good.

Very different animals.

 

[Prodigal_Son]

Go study the Church’s teach on moral theology…you will run across a decomposition of moral actions, and you will see how “intention”, “object of the moral act” and “circumstances” support precisely what I’ve said.

None of these clearly give us the SEVERITY of the sin. Something can be worse in a greater number of ways without being worse all things considered.

 

[Edward_H]

As I said you need to become more familiar with the the rigorous terminology used by the Church to tease out differences between moral actions.

To throw them in the same bucket is a childish act, or one done out of laziness, or worse.

 

[Prodigal_Son]

No, I’m not denying that different sex acts are by their very nature, different sex acts. I’m arguing that the context in which they occur is the point of this whole conversation.

I agree that two men who love each other very much could have sex out of that love. What I deny is that the sex brings them closer. Do you have evidence that it does?

 

[Andy_82]

Yes, here’s a paper wrought from research on that very topic published by the National Institutes of Health: Intimacy and Emotion Work in Lesbian, Gay, and Heterosexual Relationships

 

[Andy_82]

The church herself has only had access to research on this topic for a few years and needs time to digest it. But, as the Pontiff himself has indicated, it has made a mistake: Francis: Christians must apologize to gay people for marginalizing them | National Catholic Reporter

 

[Edward_H]

Sure it does…same sex itself is objectively disordered, closed to life, against the nature of humans.

Under no circumstances could it not be a grave sin.

Think…in the OT there are cases where multiple wives happened…what about that time/conditions/circumstances differed from today. The physical act was ok then.

Never same sex. It’s always a disfiguring of the human.

 

[stupidisasstupiddoes]

Well that act of adultery is different from same sex becuase the act itself is not against the nature of the human. Under different circumstances (marriage) that act of intercourse is a great good.

Under no circumstances is SS a good.

I’m afraid we’re on shaky ground and maybe your view is more representative of the Church who i do not wish to contradict, however we already agreed that people with SSA did not choose it. It is part genetic (small) and then environment factors (large), but the environment factors set in long before they are making life choices with an adult mind. Now the church accepts the principle of mitigating circumstances for sin (forgive me, i forget the technical term but i’m confident it’s there). So i think you are on shaky ground with your arguement because what might be against the nature of the species might not be against the nature of the individual, especially if they were born into circumstances that the Church teaches they shouldn’t (e.g. absent fathers). i know I haven’t worded this well but please let’s not argue semantics. Clearly there is diminished responsibility on behalf of the SSA person and not so on the side of the adulterer and i don’t see this considered in your analysis. No, the SSA person doesn’t need to act on their desires that they did not choose, but nor does the adulterer need to act on their lust either. What are the mitigating circumstances for the adulterer? If we have two moral sins, one with mitigating factors and the other without, how can you say the one without is not equal or less?

 

[Edward_H]

I don’t agree that people with SS “didn’t choose it”.

We’re not automatons, and we have grace.

You basically argue against the mediation of grace…and that’s a big problem.

 

[stupidisasstupiddoes]

I don’t agree that people with SS “didn’t choose it”.

We’re not automatons, and we have grace.

You basically argue against the mediation of grace…and that’s a big problem.

So at what point did they make the choice to acquire SSA given the factors we’ve already agreed upon? What exactly did they do wrong?

 

[Edward_H]

God knows, not you or me, and these people need the help the Church offers through GOOD and regular spiritual direction, generous use of prayer, the Sacraments, and ascetical formation, little of which is ever spoken about here.

 

[Prodigal_Son]

God knows, not you or me, and these people need the help the Church offers through GOOD and regular spiritual direction, generous use of prayer, the Sacraments, and ascetical formation, little of which is ever spoken about here.

Indeed, it isn’t spoken about because as soon as someone says that homosexual sins are not “worse”, people get up in arms and insist that it is a unique perversion that we ought to be very clear to designate as such. Even cannibalism seems normal compared to it!!!

 

[stupidisasstupiddoes]

God knows, not you or me, and these people need the help the Church offers through GOOD and regular spiritual direction, generous use of prayer, the Sacraments, and ascetical formation, little of which is ever spoken about here.

If you don’t know that they chose it, then your arguement that my position is not based on reason falls apart.

 

[Edward_H]

Oh I don’t know…it’s God’s call to size up our sins.

Objectively it seems that same sex is a far worse sin because under no case is male-male coupling ordered to nature, or female female coupling ordered to nature, ordered to give life outside of its “closed” faux unity.

It’s not “perfectible” using the language of Aquinas. Unitive can’t serve procreative.

But I think this whole…viewpoint itself…of hoping that “no sin is least” is disordered itself.

We should be looking at the other end of behavior…which behavior is most ordered to the good, which if practiced, can be done most heroically, with most self-gift…vs. least grotesque.

 

[Edward_H]

I know that many homos (just like heteros) give in to their desires and sin. That’s a choice.

Going to a gay bar is a near temptation to sin. That’s a choice, and should that lead to sin, then going to that place again is a sin.

 

[Prodigal_Son]

Objectively it seems that same sex is a far worse sin because under no case is male-male coupling ordered to nature, or female female coupling ordered to nature, ordered to give life outside of its “closed” faux unity.

It’s not “perfectible” using the language of Aquinas. Unitive can’t serve procreative.

But I think this whole…viewpoint itself…of hoping that “no sin is least” is disordered itself.

We should be looking at the other end of behavior…which behavior is most ordered to the good, which if practiced, can be done most heroically, with most self-gift…vs. least grotesque.

OK, maybe we can agree on this. But it would help if you acknowledge that those who experience greater challenges are greater overcomers, when they refrain from sin – even if they are human, like we all are, and surely they do not obtain perfection.

 

[Prodigal_Son]

I know that many homos (just like heteros) give in to their desires and sin. That’s a choice.

Going to a gay bar is a near temptation to sin. That’s a choice, and should that lead to sin, then going to that place again is a sin.

Why would you think that most people with SSA go to gay bars?

 

[Edward_H]

That makes sense…overcomers is a good way to say it. They respond to grace given to them by God. They could teach the rest of us loads!

I’d say such overcomers are a long way down the road to perfection which for all of us ends when we die, but not a minute before we die!

 

[Edward_H]

I never used the word most…you did. I said many.