Why doesn't God just not create the bad people to keep them from going to hell

[Amandil]

Not the “box” that God owes but maybe the “box” that God cares, but I do not look at God caring for ALL as putting God in a “box”.

That God cares for men where men refuse to care for themselves or salvation doesn’t solve your problem. God’s care opened the door, it cannot force them to walk through.

It could be that God cared enought to have “created and redeemed them regardless whether they want it or not” and just the thought of God doing this sure does make some people extremely upset.

You can’t help yourself and your little jabs can you? That someone would have the gall to upset and contradict your opinions with fundamental logic and Scripture.

Ever thought that God just might be “big enough” to somehow get ALL to “want it” without forcing it on them even tho it may appear to some that some others might not want it?

I understand that you think it pious to brag about how big God is, but it’s hardy pious to stand in contradiction to God on something so clear as this. If “many” will reject God to their destruction, then if follows that God could not “somehow get ALL to want” salvation.

How true the old saying, “God created us in God’s Image and Likeness and we have been trying to return the favor ever since”.

How true indeed. You should heed your own words.

Since God Is a Being of Love, anytime that Love shines thru us, God shines thru us.

So are your attempts of ridicule directed towards me God’s love “shining” through you?

 

[fhansen]

That does not in any way remove his complicity with what has occurred from His creations…If you believe in the Christian God that is.

In the Christian view, whether or not God were to formally acknowledge complicity, He was in any case willing to come and live and suffer and die with us, in the very world He created, and due to the very sin that the gift of free will gave rise to. IOW He deemed it- creation-to be all worthwhile, complete with free will and all that entails, which includes the evil that it entails. Then He demonstrated that sin/evil, as well as death, the final enemy, will be triumphed over. Justice reigns in the end.

Free will is real; God allows us a radical degree of freedom to make choices for good or ill, presumably because, ultimately, He greatly values our free choices for the good. Either way He doesn’t shirk from experiencing the effects of our choices for Himself.

 

[Tom_Baum]

I wrote, "Since God Is a Being of Love, anytime that Love shines thru us, God shines thru us.

You answered:

So are your attempts of ridicule directed towards me God’s love “shining” through you?

This is neither a ridicule toward you nor a speaking of God’s Love shining thru me, what it is, is what it simply says, that whenever anyone has Love shining thru them than God is shining thru them.

Very simple, concise and direct, speaking of all and neither a ridicule of you nor a self-patting of my own back!

You don’t have to agree with it and it doesn’t matter to me if you agree or not but the “Image and Likeness” that Genesis speaks of is LOVE since Love is not a mere attribute of God but Is God’s Very Being.

When I address any of these posts to you, it is not only to you, it is to all.

 

[oldcelt]

In the Christian view, whether or not God were to formally acknowledge complicity, He was in any case willing to come and live and suffer and die with us, in the very world He created, and due to the very sin that the gift of free will gave rise to. IOW He deemed it- creation-to be all worthwhile, complete with free will and all that entails, which includes the evil that it entails. Then He demonstrated that sin/evil, as well as death, the final enemy, will be triumphed over. Justice reigns in the end.

Free will is real; God allows us a radical degree of freedom to make choices for good or ill, presumably because, ultimately, He greatly values our free choices for the good. Either way He doesn’t shirk from experiencing the effects of our choices for Himself.

And, according to Christianity, He just keeps on creating new, imperfect humans. Justice will not reign if that version of god gets his way. Fortunately, I no longer believe that he exists.

 

[fhansen]

And, according to Christianity, He just keeps on creating new, imperfect humans. Justice will not reign if that version of god gets his way. Fortunately, I no longer believe that he exists.

The Christain God is limiting His creation to or within a time period, and perfecting that creation over that time. Good and evil are only allowed to coexist in the meanwhile.

 

[oldcelt]

The Christain God is limiting His creation to or within a time period, and perfecting that creation over that time. Good and evil are only allowed to coexist in the meanwhile.

Somehow that doesn’t improve anything.

 

[Amandil]

I wrote, "Since God Is a Being of Love, anytime that Love shines thru us, God shines thru us.

This is neither a ridicule toward you nor a speaking of God’s Love shining thru me, what it is, is what it simply says, that whenever anyone has Love shining thru them than God is shining thru them.

There are several things which you said and which I can quote where you tried to appeal to ridicule and spite because I had the nerve to contradict you.

Specifically:
Tom Baum:

How true the old saying, “God created us in God’s Image and Likeness and we have been trying to return the favor ever since”.

So were you not implying that because I am contradicting you that you then accused me of “trying to return the favor” by creating a “god” in my image and likeness?

 

[fhansen]

Somehow that doesn’t improve anything.

Makes pain and suffering temporary. What’s the benefit or reason in any case for belief in the God of Deism BTW?

 

[Amandil]

Makes pain and suffering temporary. What’s the benefit or reason in any case for belief in the God of Deism BTW?

As far as I can see nothing. Pain and suffering are pointless. From a deistic perspective I’d be better off not existing than having to deal with pain, suffering, cancer, amputated legs, etc.

 

[oldcelt]

Makes pain and suffering temporary. What’s the benefit or reason in any case for belief in the God of Deism BTW?

Since when is it about benefits? We control our own destiny on this planet…a rather rough place. All human suffering has an end under Deism at the obvious time…death. The Christian God may decide that some deserve to burn forever or some such nonsense.

 

[oldcelt]

As far as I can see nothing. Pain and suffering are pointless. From a deistic perspective I’d be better off not existing than having to deal with pain, suffering, cancer, amputated legs, etc.

No, we accept the world for what it is. We believe that God is not the great discipliner in the sky, but the first cause of creation…and that is plenty. We are a result of the continuance of creation through billions of years of development.
But you are right, we do not think that earthly suffering gains us anything. So, we fight it in any way we can.

 

[Amandil]

No, we accept the world for what it is. We believe that God is not the great discipliner in the sky, but the first cause of creation…and that is plenty. We are a result of the continuance of creation through billions of years of development.
But you are right, we do not think that earthly suffering gains us anything. So, we fight it in any way we can.

Who precisely is “we”?

Is there some Deist “catechism” you can point to? Or are these simply your individual subjective views?

 

[davidv]

And, according to Christianity, He just keeps on creating new, imperfect humans. Justice will not reign if that version of god gets his way. Fortunately, I no longer believe that he exists.

And each new human is capable and equipped to live a perfect life in heaven for eternity.

As my kids’ high school principal used to tell the students each morning, “Have a good day, or not. The choice is yours.”

 

[fhansen]

Since when is it about benefits? We control our own destiny on this planet…a rather rough place. All human suffering has an end under Deism at the obvious time…death. The Christian God may decide that some deserve to burn forever or some such nonsense.

No, I mean what’s the point in the beleif? Strictly scientific interest?

 

[Tom_Baum]

The Christain God is limiting His creation to or within a time period, and perfecting that creation over that time. Good and evil are only allowed to coexist in the meanwhile.

From what is written in the bible, it doesn’t sound like God is “perfecting that creation over that time” but that God will create “new heavens and a new earth” in a continuation of God’s creation but with some kind of total change.

IOW it sounds like to me that what you are saying is that God is gradually perfecting God’s creation, is that what you are trying to say?

Doesn’t seem to me that creation is slowing being perfected, if anything it seems that it is deteriorating whether slowly or more quickly, I do not know, but downhill nevertheless and that it will be God Who makes some major, quick changes in the “new heavens and the new earth” whatever that might mean or entail.

 

[Tom_Baum]

Makes pain and suffering temporary. What’s the benefit or reason in any case for belief in the God of Deism BTW?

Wouldn’t that be “Makes pain and suffering temporary” for some but for other “Makes pain and suffering” not only worse than anything on this planet but for ever, in a way that is beyond our capacity to conceive of.

We may not have the capacity to completely conceive of everylasting torment but we can at least “ponder” it, if we wish.

Even the most degenerate, sadistic human being that has ever been, is or will be is not capable of something such as this since anything that they can do, is at best temporary, since physical death will ultimately claim the person being put thru whatever they are being put thru.

It is my opinion that some people’s opinion of Divine Justice has absolutely nothing to do with Justice and is not in the least bit Divine.

 

[oldcelt]

No, I mean what’s the point in the beleif? Strictly scientific interest?

No, a personal search for God. I was working hard on improving my Catholic faith when things began to not connect with what I observed. To top that, what I was taught did not match with an all-loving god. It looked to me that we were very much on our own here on earth. It isn’t a depressing thought…I was never much on the caretaker god in my 50 years in Catholicism.
So, I guess the point of any belief is a personal search for truth. Not surprisingly, we often arrive at different places.

John

 

[Tom_Baum]

There are several things which you said and which I can quote where you tried to appeal to ridicule and spite because I had the nerve to contradict you.

Specifically:

So were you not implying that because I am contradicting you that you then accused me of “trying to return the favor” by creating a “god” in my image and likeness?

I’ve met Dad and yes it does bother me that some say such wonderful adjectives about God (loving, merciful, kind, and others, many others) but if one reads or listens to what they say about God, it is just disgusting, at least to me.

As far as, “How true the old saying, “God created us in God’s Image and Likeness and we have been trying to return the favor ever since””, this is not the first place that I have either said or wrote it but I do think that it is true and I am not the originator of this phrase.

You should follow God how you feel that you should follow God but I am going to do what I believe God wants me to do not what others think I should do.

As I have said before, I would rather be wrong in trying to follow God how I believe that I should follow God than right in following God how others think that I should follow God.

Jesus did say, “Come follow Me”, He did NOT say, “Come follow a follower of mine”!

I can see a good and godly reason for hell, since the occupant is the builder and God can use hell in a good and godly way since it was God Who made us able to build our own hell for a reason which is part of God’s Plan which God has had since before creation so that God’s Will that ALL be saved will, ultimately, come to Fruition.

However, if someone, anyone, has to be in hell for ever and ever and ever and…, than it is not something that is used in a good and godly way but is something that is totally vindictive and is, to put it mildly, way beyond anything that even comes close to any kind of justice, much less Divine Justice.

We speak of Divine Justice and Divine Mercy, justice without mercy is neither.

 

[Aloysium]

. . . . Even the most degenerate, sadistic human being that has ever been, is or will be is not capable of something such as this since anything that they can do, is at best temporary, since physical death will ultimately claim the person being put thru whatever they are being put thru.

It is my opinion that some people’s opinion of Divine Justice has absolutely nothing to do with Justice and is not in the least bit Divine.

There is Justice and it is Love.
Think of yourself where you have been the victim of an injustice rather than the perpetrator.
Doesn’t the particular situation you were in demand justice.
I know several people who were the victims of government instituted torture.
One of my early memories is of the numbers tatooed on the forearm of my friend’s mother.
We read, if we do not experience it ourselves, every day of the treatment of minorities in oppressive societies.
In such cases, the institutions with the mandate to exert justice in this world, do just the opposite.
For these victims of persecution, there will never justice in this world.
Do you understand this?
It would be a lack of love to ignore their pain, their ruined lives, and the ruined lives of their families and those who love them.
It is not a matter of revenge, nor of deterrence; jusitice will be done in accordance to the will of God. This scripture tells us, includes hell.
God is love; He does not give up. If anyone is in hell, they most assuredly deserve it.
Be careful of where your wishes and fears take you. Do not lose sight of the truth.

 

[fhansen]

From what is written in the bible, it doesn’t sound like God is “perfecting that creation over that time” but that God will create “new heavens and a new earth” in a continuation of God’s creation but with some kind of total change.

IOW it sounds like to me that what you are saying is that God is gradually perfecting God’s creation, is that what you are trying to say?

Doesn’t seem to me that creation is slowing being perfected, if anything it seems that it is deteriorating whether slowly or more quickly, I do not know, but downhill nevertheless and that it will be God Who makes some major, quick changes in the “new heavens and the new earth” whatever that might mean or entail.

It’s the big picture. I think it’s already been quoted on this thread but here’s how the Catechism puts it:

**310 But why did God not create a world so perfect that no evil could exist in it? With infinite power God could always create something better. But with infinite wisdom and goodness God freely willed to create a world “in a state of journeying” towards its ultimate perfection. In God’s plan this process of becoming involves the appearance of certain beings and the disappearance of others, the existence of the more perfect alongside the less perfect, both constructive and destructive forces of nature. With physical good there exists also physical evil as long as creation has not reached perfection.

302 Creation has its own goodness and proper perfection, but it did not spring forth complete from the hands of the Creator. The universe was created “in a state of journeying” (in statu viae) toward an ultimate perfection yet to be attained, to which God has destined it. We call “divine providence” the dispositions by which God guides his creation toward this perfection:
By his providence God protects and governs all things which he has made, "reaching mightily from one end of the earth to the other, and ordering all things well". For "all are open and laid bare to his eyes", even those things which are yet to come into existence through the free action of creatures.**