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JapaneseKappa
Guest
Did you will yourself into existence?
Why doesn't God just not create the bad people to keep them from going to hell
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MacQ
Guest
Not that I know of. But I fail to see how that’s relevant.
The whole question assumes God created “bad” people…which is also an odd concept IMO.
But I reckon this is one of those questions that IMO had a really “well duh” answer, but will nevertheless fascinate people no end and spawn long pseudointellectual diatribes.
J
JapaneseKappa
Guest
Because if people don’t will themselves into existence then God’s refusal to create people wouldn’t be a contradiction of their will.Not that I know of. But I fail to see how that’s relevant.
The whole question assumes God created “bad” people…which is also an odd concept IMO.
But I reckon this is one of those questions that IMO had a really “well duh” answer, but will nevertheless fascinate people no end and spawn long pseudointellectual diatribes.
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MacQ
Guest
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JapaneseKappa
Guest
So you’re saying you prefer answers that only make sense as long as you don’t think about them?
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MacQ
Guest
No, I didn’t say that.
I’d put it this way: some things are a mystery, and I’m fine with that.
Obsessing ad nauseam about them doesn’t make them any less of a mystery.
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oldcelt
Guest
How can you overthink your possible eternal life?
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MacQ
Guest
How does overthinking it influence or change it in any way?
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Amandil
Guest
1 Tim 2:
3] This is good, and it is acceptable in the sight of God our Savior,
[4] who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.
God provides a certain way for souls to be saved from hell so that they not wind up there that doesn’t require Him to violate neither His nature nor theirs.
Again, the only souls who wind up in hell are their by their own desire, not God’s.
Nobody has.
What we know is that there are “many”, and this is known on the basis of Jesus. Since God is a Father and a God of Love, not the cruel and indifferent utilitarianist you suggest He be, for any parent one child lost to self-destructive behavior is too “many”.
What we also know that there is more rejoicing in heaven over one sinner who repents than over 99 others who never needed to repent(Luke 15).
So your comment doesn’t follow from what is known or taught about God, but from your misunderstanding.
“Reasonable” only to a habitual sinner who wants to blame God for his sinfulness. Who not only wants to sin but also to get away with sinning.
It may be valid but it is not sound. If it was sound God would have done it. Clearly what IS is not what you propose, therefore it could not be done.
You’re really citing “Google” as a source for a philosophical or theological definition of “eternity”?
How about you try something slightly more sophisticated?
What I do know is that eternity is not “endless time” or and “infinite timeline” but instead an “a state of being unbounded by time”.
The problem is that God and eternity are too dynamic to be reduced to mathematical formulas or diagrams. Thus your understanding will always fall short because you cannot move past the need to measure God according to the rule with which you have to measure Him.
Your attempts to bring God down to your level via mathematics is about as prideful as it is vain. So there is really nothing “concrete” about your understanding at all, only your misunderstanding that a Being such as God can be concretized into mathematical axioms.
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Tom_Baum
Guest
Another translation is:
3This is good and pleasing to God our savior,
4who wills everyone to be saved and to come to knowledge of the truth.
In the translation that I provided, it is not just God’s desire but is GOD’S WILL.
Jesus did teach us to pray, “…They Kingdom come, Thy WILL be done…”, could be that praying for God’s Will, rather than just saying the words, just might be the most powerful thing that God has put into our hands.
Could be that God’s Will will, ultimately, come to Fruition and that God had this in God’s Plan even before creation even if we think that God is incapable of having God’s Will Be Done!
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Tom_Baum
Guest
I happen to believe that time and eternity are two different things, not two different ways of looking at the same thing.
Eternity just is and time was created.
This is why I spoke of time and eternity on other posts and I do not think that it was “talking in a circle” to say that they are different.
A legitimate question is: Will time last forever or will God uncreate time?
I do not “know” the answer.
However, I do have some thoughts on this, “ponderings”, one might say.
Another “ponderable”, if time is everlasting, will God somehow do away with eternity?
I happen to believe that there are many things concerning God that we can NOT figure out even tho there seem to be those that seem to think that either they or someone else can figure out everything about God.
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Tom_Baum
Guest
Mathematicians are not the only ones who try to put God in a “box”.
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Amandil
Guest
The NAB is not a good translation but rather leaves much to be desired in terms of accuracy. Much of the process of translation included too much influence in translation from protestantism.
Specifically with regards to the use of “wills” in 1 Timothy 2, and your faulty interpretation of it, how do you square your interpretation with this verse from Romans 9:
From the NAB:
18 Consequently, he has mercy upon whom he wills, and he hardens whom he wills.
(RSV)
18] So then he has mercy upon whomever he wills, and he hardens the heart of whomever he wills.
There’s an apparent contradiction in your thought process. Either God “wills” all to be saved, or God “hardens whom He wills.”
So how do you explain this?
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Amandil
Guest
You mean like the “box” that God somehow owes everyone a ticket to heaven just because He created and redeemed them regardless whether they want it or not?
Is that the box you are referring to?
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Amandil
Guest
Tom Baum:
Is eternity the same thing as God?
Tom Baum:
Eternity just “is”?
Is eternity the same thing as God?
Tom Baum:
Is there or is there not a “Last Day” mentioned in Scripture?
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tonyrey
Guest
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Tom_Baum
Guest
Is this one of the reasons why the NAB is the bible translation on the USCCB website?
Since God Is God, could be that God has a good reasons to do what God does.
What do you mean either or?
Ever heard of both and!
God does both and God does both for very good reasons.
Since I am not God, I do not “know” why but it could be that those that God “hardens”, God isn’t hardening them so that they can go to hell for ever and ever and…, but ultimately for just the opposite.
Do you or anyone else think that God hardening someone’s heart means that that someone is going to go to hell for ever and ever or could it be that God hardening someone’s heart is for a reason that God knows, so that, ultimately, God’s Will for ALL to be saved, will come to Fruition?
Could be that since God Is God, God knows what God is doing and God becoming One of us and dying for All of us in not in vain.
You speak of contradiction and contradictory quite often, however, it could be that things that appear contradictory to us are complimentary to God.
Just as it is written, “My Ways are not your ways and My Thoughts are not your thoughts”.
Only God knows just how everything fits together.
“They have eyes but do not see, they have ears but do not hear”.
Just when so many seemed to think that they had Jesus all figured out, He went to the cross anyway, didn’t He?
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Tom_Baum
Guest
Not the “box” that God owes but maybe the “box” that God cares, but I do not look at God caring for ALL as putting God in a “box”.
It could be that God cared enought to have “created and redeemed them regardless whether they want it or not” and just the thought of God doing this sure does make some people extremely upset.
Ever thought that God just might be “big enough” to somehow get ALL to “want it” without forcing it on them even tho it may appear to some that some others might not want it?
How true the old saying, “God created us in God’s Image and Likeness and we have been trying to return the favor ever since”.
Since God Is a Being of Love, anytime that Love shines thru us, God shines thru us.
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Tom_Baum
Guest
I would say that eternity is not God since God Is a Being of Love and I don’t think of eternity as a Being.
In some ways I think that eternity is a mere concept of something that we can not describe or know.
Yes there is a Last Day mentioned in Scripture but there is nothing in Scripture, that I know of, that says the Last Day ends, do you know of any?
It says that on the Seventh Day that God blest, rested and made holy, doesn’t it?
Jesus said, “My Father has been busy even until now”, didn’t He?
Sounds like we could very well be in the Sixth Day and have been in the Sixth Day for quite awhile and one of these days the Seventh Day of creation will arrive, that Day just may last for ever, do you or anyone else have any thoughts concerning this?
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Amandil
Guest
It’s approved for use by the Bishops, but there is no small consensus which confirms that the NAB as a translation is lacking in many respects in regards to accuracy.
There’s “both-and” in regards to Jesus’ nature. There’s “both-and” in regards to faith and works.
There is no both-and in regards to divine election and predestination.
God does not do meaningless self-contradictions because by definition they are meaningless, therefore they cannot be for good reasons.
You’re begging the question again.
Because in verse 22 Paul writes: “(God)…has endured with much patience the vessels of wrath made for destruction”
Their hardening comes from the fact of God’s presence which they utterly reject.
In any case “for destruction” doesn’t bode well for your opinion.
I’ve already said this before but apparently it bears repeating: Redemption is not the same as Salvation.
Jesus Redeemed all men. That does not mean that all are saved or going to heaven.
Giving a gift and accepting a gift are two separate acts. And a gift can be rejected as well.
I can’t help it because none of your comments make any real sense.
Which, again, makes no sense.
You say these things as if they’re so ultimately profound. You do realize that there are things that we do know with certainty through what God has revealed, don’t you?
Thus by what He has revealed we know what God knows, hence we do not need to know “everything”. What we do know is sufficient. And from that we know that hell is a reality, and that there are people who will choose hell over God.
Which is precisely the way I’m beginning to think in regards to this discussion with you.
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