Why doesn't God just not create the bad people to keep them from going to hell

[Leviticus20vs13]

Again, you miss the point.

Oh and please enlighten me, what point do I miss when I think it is evil to not help the less fortunate when you have the power to?

Let me guess, it is not for me to know…

C’mon bud, ANY religion/argument can use mysterious “complex” phrases/ideas like that.

 

[Bradski]

Yet when you use terms such as “pre-determined” in regards to their “destinies” and thus follow with your own conclusions, you’ve then set up and knocked down a strawman.

The term 'predetermined was only used in the summation of the argument. If you don’t like the term, then address everything in the argument itself.

Although for the life of me, if you have agreed that God knows before He creates you that you will be going to hell, how you cannot describe that as being pre-determined is beyond me. Would you like to propose another phrase for something that is known in advance?

I have bent over backwards to allow you as much free will as you like and have even stated that God does not send you to hell (obviously meaning that it is your own responsibility based on free will choices). How much more do you need than for me to agree with almost everything you are saying?

In any case, to use an analogy I used earlier, to get this far with an acceptance that God knows before He creates some people that they will reject Him was like pulling teeth. Even when that acceptance was given, it was about as grudgingly given as it could possibly be. Almost defensively. And I think it’s pretty obvious why.

Because you knew where it would lead. And now it is there in front of you. A few simple statements based on what you have already agreed and which leads to a situation that you would rather not discuss. So in all probability you won’t. You’ll slide around it claiming terms haven’t been defined, that straw men are being built, that circular arguments abound, that the conclusion is there in the proposal, and use any and all other neat little forum terms that you seem to enjoy sprinkling around at random, when none of that is true.

You could show some stones and discuss it. My money is that you won’t.

 

[tonyrey]

Certainly not. The right to disagree with me is absolute. The only justification I can think of for taking another’s life is self-defense or defense of family.

Yet you condemn God for giving us the power to choose what to believe and how to live!

 

[MacQ]

Nice try.

You’re kind…I didn’t think it was a very good try at all.

 

[MacQ]

My argument is based on the fact that God creates people knowing that they would refuse to accept God’s goodness and mercy. That is, knowing that they will end up in hell. .

It’s possible He knows that we will likely ALL reject His goodness and mercy at some point in our existence.
That doesn’t mean we will “end up” in Hell.
Some of us stop rejecting His goodness and mercy.
I think that may be His plan…that we all eventually do.

 

[believer691]

I tell you, many will recognise Me in these Messages as the Most High; … and I shall bring even pagans to desire Me; 1 My Spirit, like a soft breeze will touch them; I shall go to countries that never held My Name Holy; I will speak to people who never called Me or invoked My Name; True Life In God (TLIG.ORG)

 

[oldcelt]

Yet you condemn God for giving us the power to choose what to believe and how to live!

No, I condemn the notion of a god who knowingly creates someone who is bound for hell. Fortunately, I don’t believe in god creating us.

 

[MacQ]

Ever thought that God might, just might, temper Justice with Mercy?

I find it absolutely astounding that so many speak of God’s “INFINITE MERCY” and yet in the same breath, so casually, speak of hell lasting forever and seemingly never giving any thought to the longevity of for ever and ever… .

I just can not believe that God did ALL that He did, in the Incarnation, so that a mere handful can be with God for ever and ever and…, and the vast majority of those made in the “Image and Likeness of God” will be in a “place, state, whatever one wishes to call it” that is horrible beyond our conception for ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever…, what kind of God does this “conception” of God seem to be for anyone who is actually willing to think?

A lot of fancy adjectives mean absolutely nothing if the “god,God” of anyone’s “conception” is beyond despicable.

Seems like quite a few think of “justice” as “throwing away the key”, could be that God not only has a “Plan” but has had that “Plan” since before creation and God “knows” just how to “clean all of us up” and also how to “get us to want to be cleaned up”, IOW God just might be “worthy” of ALL of the “fancy” adjectives that have ever been attributed to God.

Well said.
Seems to me that most of the arguments put forth confine God’s thinking to human limitations; some are simplistic or dogmatic even for human standards, and some are reductio ad absurdem.

 

[Tom_Baum]

Not at all. To deduce some things about people is quite different from knowing all the decisions they make. Conjecture is unacceptable as evidence.

So are you saying that God is a “deducer”?

Doesn’t the Catholic Church teach that God Is Omniscient?

To put it mildly, there is a big difference between “To deduce some things” and “to know everything”.

If you are speaking about God in the above post than you are saying that God is NOT Omniscient, are you speaking about God or someone else?

 

[MacQ]

Yet you condemn God for giving us the power to choose what to believe and how to live!

I think you missed something there Tony. Hopefully not on purpose (?)
If he’s an atheist, he doesn’t believe God created us in the first place, so that’s not what he’s condemning. It’s pretty clear he doesn’t deny we have free will.
Points are seldom made well in debates or disagreements by assigning a false notion to your opponent. There’s a name for that…

 

[Tom_Baum]

Tell me if this is not true: The decisions a woman makes in 20 years time will be determined by events which will themselves be determined by people who are not yet in existence. That is, we cannot know what her decisions are likely to be now because we don’t know the circumstances which will pertain then.

Either God is in the same boat as us (you keep saying that He cannot know the minds of those not created) or He is not.

If He is restricted in the same way as we are, then he is not omniscient.

If He is not restricted then He knows what the decisions are of those not created. And it follows from that that if the decisions they make will end up with them being in hell, then God knows that they will end up in hell when He creates them.

Which is it?

I am not tonyrey but I would like to comment concerning your post.

I believe that God Is Omniscient and I believe that God’s Plan is, ultimately, for ALL to be with God and that God has had God’s Plan since before creation.

As far as, “then God knows that they will end up in hell when He creates them”, I disagree with this somewhat in that I believe that God “knows” this even before God creates them.

This is one of the “reasons” that God “won” the “keys” to the “netherworld” by God’s work in the Incarnation, just as the Incarnated told us, “The ‘gates of the netherworld’ shall not prevail against IT”.

 

[Tom_Baum]

The fact that a person can reject God for all eternity is sufficient evidence.

You may think/believe that evil has sufficient power to nullify God’s “power” but I don’t.

Obviously not but it frustrates God’s Will that everyone should be in heaven.

You may think/believe that God’s Will will be frustrated but I happen to think/believe that it will be satan’s will that will be shot down.

The pleasure and satisfaction of being independent, having absolute power over oneself and owing allegiance to no one.

You have not a clue about hell.

The lust for power is the fundamental reason why a person rejects God.

Some seem to think that plain old lust “is the fundamental reason” why so many are in hell not “The lust for power” or even rejecting God but just the fact that they are human.

 

[Tom_Baum]

This means that the world is upside-down.
The one who serves is greater than the one being served.
I refer you to the beatitudes.

When God speaks there are many times that God is saying more than just one thing.

Seriously, you’ve got to get your mind out of hell.
What you post goes against what the Church teaches.
At any rate get out.
Or, perhaps what you have to leave the image of yourself there, and spiritually be reborn.
Move on - look to the light.
Even Nietzsche knew that if you stare too long into the abyss, it will stare back at you.

I don’t think that I am the only one, if fact I am sure of it, that cares about those in hell and I don’t think/believe that God did all that God did for the little that some think God did it for, IOW as I said elsewhere, it is satan’s will that will be frustrated not God’s.

As far as “Nietzsche” goes, I know virtually nothing about him but the “abyss” that you spoke of that “Nietzsche knew”, isn’t that total oblivion, total nothingness, as opposed to a horror that is beyond our ability to conceive of that lasts for ever and ever and… ?

 

[Tom_Baum]

God does not send anyone to hell. Nor does his omniscience predetermine that they are hell-bound.

I agree that God does not send anyone to hell, not only do we send ourself but hell is custom-built by its inhabitant, however, Jesus went to everyone’s hell since Jesus took everyone’s sins upon Himself and “paid the ransom”, as it is written.

Isn’t the ultimate “price of sin”, so to speak, hell and death?

If Jesus “paid the ransom”, wouldn’t this be the “ransom”?

Or is this some meaningless thing written concerning what Jesus accomplished on the cross?

predetermine:

1. to settle or decide in advance
2. to ordain in advance; predestine
3. to direct or impel; influence strongly

You wrote, “Nor does his omniscience predetermine that they are hell-bound.”, but God’s Omniscience would “know” that they are hell-bound or God would not be Omniscient.

So wouldn’t God have “decided in advance” that He “knew” that this one or that one would end up in hell?

There is NO such thing as partial Omniscience, God is either Omniscient or God isn’t.

 

[fred_conty]

No, I condemn the notion of a god who knowingly creates someone who is bound for hell. Fortunately, I don’t believe in god creating us.

Seems as tho you made two new friends, MacQ and Tom Baum, who agree with your sentiment that God doesn’t allow anyone to go to hell. We have 7 billion people on this planet and everyone of them is going to heaven without a doubt?

My sentiment is that God doesn’t create any bad people either. All 7 billion are created good. And all 7 billion were redeemed. And all 7 billion were planned for heaven. And the question is, since God didn’t create any bad people to begin with, why shouldn’t he create every one of them?

Because God should judge them guilty before they actually committed the crime! Don’t give them a chance to do wrong…just judge them guilty beforehand, and get rid of someone who would be created good. Serve the punishment first and not allow the crime. Maybe our justice system could learn something from this idea…don’t allow everyone the same opportunity under the law of freedom. Just pick out some people at random who we think will absolutely commit murders and get rid of them before they might do any murders. Even tho they are good people, they have been found wanting beforehand and do not have the right to live their life.

Does it throw a different light on the fact that God sees from eternity, not from time, which of these created good people will end wrong? If God had not created a good parent because he/she would end badly, then all those good generations of people down the line who would have been created and gone to heaven, now will be denied heaven because their parent was not created. Is that fair to deny generations of good people their happiness because of someone else?

And immediately comes to mind Adam and Eve. Yes we were denied because of them, but we were not denied being created with natural goodness, but being created without supernatural goodness. And even in this situation, God promised from the very beginning to restore this to us thru a redeemer.

May God bless and keep you. May God’s face shine on you. May God be kind to you and give you peace.

 

[Tom_Baum]

It’s possible He knows that we will likely ALL reject His goodness and mercy at some point in our existence.
That doesn’t mean we will “end up” in Hell.
Some of us stop rejecting His goodness and mercy.
I think that may be His plan…that we all eventually do.

Either God is Omniscient or God isn’t, there is no such thing as partial Omniscience.

Omniscient:

1. having complete or unlimited knowledge, awareness, or understanding; perceiving all things.

Omniscience is NOT that “It’s possible He knows”.

Omniscience is that He knows period.

 

[davidv]

Either God is Omniscient or God isn’t, there is no such thing as partial Omniscience.

Omniscient:

1. having complete or unlimited knowledge, awareness, or understanding; perceiving all things.

Omniscience is NOT that “It’s possible He knows”.

Omniscience is that He knows period.

Since God’s knowledge does not cause our free choices to act morally, or not, this a moot point. None of God’s knowledge nullifies our responsibitly for our actions.

 

[Tom_Baum]

Seems as tho you made two new friends, MacQ and Tom Baum, who agree with your sentiment that God doesn’t allow anyone to go to hell. We have 7 billion people on this planet and everyone of them is going to heaven without a doubt?

May God bless and keep you. May God’s face shine on you. May God be kind to you and give you peace.

Actually, I never said that no one would go to hell.

I said that Jesus went to “everyone’s hell” since hell is custom-built by its inhabitant and in doing so Jesus “won” the “keys” to the “netherworld” which is hell and death (physical and spiritual).

What I also said is that God’s Plan which God has had since before creation is for ALL, ultimately, to be with God in God’s Kingdom, the new heavens and the new earth.

IOW God will use these “keys” that God-Incarnate “won” in due time, God’s Time.

I don’t know any of the “details” and I don’t need to know any of the details but it will not be God’s Will that will be frustrated but satan’s will.

As I have said before, God’s Victory Is Total and satan’s defeat is total, a tie is absolutely and utterly unacceptable.

 

[Tom_Baum]

Since God’s knowledge does not cause our free choices to act morally, or not, this a moot point. None of God’s knowledge nullifies our responsibitly for our actions.

Never said it did.

What do you mean by “this a moot point”?

What I said was that God “knew”, even before our individual existence, absolutely everything about our existence or that God was not Omniscient.

It is pretty simple to give the definition of Omniscience even tho it is beyond our ability to conceive of a Being knowing absolutely everything about us and us still having free will in what we do.

Some things just have to be taken on faith.

 

[davidv]

Never said it did.

It was implied, to me.

What do you mean by “this a moot point”?

If knowledge does not equal cause, then it adds nothing to the understanding of the the OP, therefore moot.

What I said was that God “knew”, even before our individual existence, absolutely everything about our existence or that God was not Omniscient.

Faulty language. God does not know anything “before”.

It is pretty simple to give the definition of Omniscience even tho it is beyond our ability to conceive of a Being knowing absolutely everything about us and us still having free will in what we do.

Some things just have to be taken on faith.

Agreed.