Why doesn't God just not create the bad people to keep them from going to hell

[Amandil]

So then God has twiddled his thumbs for millions of years in Heaven saying, “I guess I’m not going to see my future seeing powers today.” Not even when he created grotesque things like Hell and Lucifer, per his all creating powers?

You think there is change in eternity. How quaint.

You might want to take a look at what Boethius actually says eternity is.

No, my example was to show you how ridiculous I would sound if I asked you to do so, WITHOUT providing great convincing evidence as to why giving me all your money is a good idea.

There’s no doubt that the question was ridiculous. But neither did I actually see a coherent point.

Similarly, it is ridiculous for any religious or non-religious person, be they Mormon, Catholic, Scientologist, Atheist etc… to give any amount of money, even 10 cents, to any THEORY/IDEA of how the world is ordered (what religion does), without great convincing evidence.

Then you utterly missed the point of giving alms. It’s not what you give but that you give. Egocentric people commonly miss the point because their first concern is “what will I get back.”

Jesus said, “It is more blessed to give than to receive.”

*edit: I should replace the phrase “great convincing evidence” with “empirical evidence”, so as people do not use great sounding anecdotal evidence as a boon for their argument

So you’re assuming that the only things which are true are those discovered by the senses?

 

[Amandil]

Nope, and I’ll give you evidence that is clear and undisputable as to why…here goes:

1. I was lead here to this forum by a series of previous events, dating back to my birth, and/or God’s divine plan. (no free will, the events resemble a domino or butterfly effect)
2. During these events I was exposed to environment in the Americas that forced me to learn the local languages for survival. Much the way I would give my money at gunpoint to a gang of 5 muscles armed and angry men when forced to do so, for survival. (no free will)
3. Finally, the events led me to be bored and look for a Christian forum to see if anyone could logically explain and defend their belief. So I came on the English oriented forum, and chose to use the skills I previously learned for survival to reply to threads

I did not choose to type in Русский either, as not many people would understand the Cyrillic alphabet.

Again, you may say, “Well you don’t need to learn Russian for survival, thus it was a free choice”; and I would say to you, “Wrong! I am very attracted to Russian women, and thus would like to procreate with one, i.e., procreation equals survival.”

Again, it’s like someone making the argument(using reason) that reason doesn’t exist.

Reason is flawless de jure, reasoners are not, de facto.

 

[Bradski]

God does not send anyone to hell. Nor does his omniscience predetermine that they are hell-bound.

My argument is based on neither. Let me repeat that so it is quite clear. My argument is based on neither.

I am not saying and have never said that God sends people to hell. Neither is his omniscience responsible for sending people to hell nor could it be responsible. Omniscience purely refers to God’s complete and full knowledge of existence so it is nonsense to even suggest that someone could argue that knowledge determines anything at all.

My argument is based on the fact that God creates people knowing that they would refuse to accept God’s goodness and mercy. That is, knowing that they will end up in hell. You can have no dispute about this as I have posted exactly what you have said and you have agreed to this.

So please point out any problems with my argument that you see following the original premise. Which I will again state, has been agreed.

 

[Leviticus20vs13]

Also you’re presupposing materialism-that everything can be described by material or physical causes(i.e.DNA) , IOW you’re begging the question.

So basically your argument boils down to: then we should just have blind faith…

huh?

Because if it can’t be described by material or physical causes well then why not just assume that we’re guided by magic sea creatures at the bottom of the sea that use mind control to guide our behavior. I mean, then any theory of how the world works goes if we can’t merely use material or physical causes.

So why don’t you have faith in the Aztec religion, or Ancient Greek religion, or Islam, Scientology, etc…

I’ll tell you why, because there is no material and physical evidence that guides you to them…but yet you choose to have faith in Catholicism without physical and material evidence…hmmm that doesn’t sound very consistent

“To make fun of them because they have a simple faith is flippant.”

Ok, so making fun of hypocrites who tell me to read the Bible, when I have, and know it better than they do is flippant? I know not.

Faith, well faith is an argument that can be used for everything, e.g., “I have a flying saucer to sell you for a dollar” just have faith in me and give me the money " or any of the thousands of religions that have existed could say that faith is why you should believe in them.

In short, extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence, NOT faith. If you still believe in faith, then let me tell you buddy, I have a bridge in NYC for sale, just give me all your money and we’ll call it even. Jesus told me to sell it to you and make sure I just take what money you give me, even though you probably don’t have enough for the expensive holy bridge.

"**You’re still presupposing determinism, i.e. you’re arguing in a circle.

Human acts are not determined by heredity + environment alone.**"

Predeterminism is backed by empirical evidence, e.g., I was born a heterosexual male and thus am attracted to females that meet my DNA’s criteria. Not faith, e.g., I like females because of God’s law (what about people who don’t know about God’s law?).

So we agree that human acts are determined by heredity + environment

But you add some other magical ingredient that only a few are lucky enough to see (like priests and such using faith). Hmmm…that latter ingredient sounds kind of sketchy to me…care to explain the basics of what else is involved in human acts.

 

[Leviticus20vs13]

Again, it’s like someone making the argument(using reason) that reason doesn’t exist.

Reason is flawless de jure, reasoners are not, de facto.

Everyone, but the blind, can CONSISTENTLY see the evidence for cause and effect relationships, e.g., domino effects, eye for an eye, chemical effects, etc… Thus, causes have effects which cause other effects, and so on…and that is the meat of my argument.

Using certain rules of logic for your FAITH does not make YOU correct, as **NOT everyone **can see the evidence for your magical fantastic explanations of the relationship between an invisible God and humanity.

Using fancy phrases and rules of logic does not automatically make you correct. Or else I would be correct just by looking into a dictionary and using esoteric words/phrases to get my point across.

So please, for us uneducated people, dumb it down for us please

 

[oldcelt]

Everyone, but the blind, can CONSISTENTLY see the evidence for cause and effect relationships, e.g., domino effects, eye for an eye, chemical effects, etc… Thus, causes have effects which cause other effects, and so on…and that is the meat of my argument.

Using certain rules of logic for your FAITH does not make YOU correct, as **NOT everyone **can see the evidence for your magical fantastic explanations of the relationship between an invisible God and humanity.

Using fancy phrases and rules of logic does not automatically make you correct. Or else I would be correct just by looking into a dictionary and using esoteric words/phrases to get my point across.

So please, for us uneducated people, dumb it down for us please

So it isn’t just me. That would be like me constantly tossing in obscure historic facts to try to impress people. It comes across as desperate and rude, particularly when the terms are misused.

 

[Leviticus20vs13]

So you’re assuming that the only things which are true are those discovered by the senses?

No, I follow the scientific method, which basically states that **anything **can be falsified for an indeterminate amount of time. And the only current way we have of falsifying them is by using our senses, as that is all we have.

If you suppose that there is another way, use the scientific method to attempt to falsify it, and if you can’t falsify it, then you’re on to a good theory

But presenting magical fantastic **certain **hypotheses as Catholicism and every other of the thousands of religions have proposed, is probably just going to get you laughed out of the science lab though unless you have empirical evidence that can withstand scrutiny, just warning you.

“You might want to take a look at what Boethius actually says eternity is.”

What did he say? And who is Boethius? As I previously posted, stop using esoteric arguments to prove points…not everyone is as educated as you. I’m just a poor humble dumb stock trader

“There’s no doubt that the question was ridiculous. But neither did I actually see a coherent point.”

My point is as follows: Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence, and faith does not suffice. That is, you don’t give your money to just any idea, you give it to good-great ideas. And religion, including Catholicism, lacks the requirement (aside from arbitrarily made up ideas that have no evidence but the writings of some ancient person who did not have access to our modern education systems/tools) to give any money.

"**Then you utterly missed the point of giving alms. It’s not what you give but that you give. Egocentric people commonly miss the point because their first concern is “what will I get back.”

Jesus said, “It is more blessed to give than to receive.”**"

Now you’re assuming I’m egocentric, haha jumping the gun aren’t you? And a bit presumptuous. Well guess, I can just tell you that God said I’m right and to have faith in my argument. See how using faith is ridiculous, in any context?

Oh and please don’t quote Jesus, unless you want me to quote a bunch of horrible things the bible says…I mean look at my username Leviticus 20:13, which comes from God’s perfect word, the Bible, and basically says that you aren’t following his rules and doing his bidding…I think you have a lot of killing to do if you really believe that rule of God in Leviticus 20:13…just saying

You think there is change in eternity. How quaint.

You sound very pompous in your statement haha yet you are certain that eating the meat of an invisible man and drinking his blood isn’t quaint? Again, I have a bridge to sell you in NYC…

 

[Amandil]

FYI, bringing up the weather in Alaska is a Red Herring. Getting you to clean up your argument is not.

My argument is based on neither. Let me repeat that so it is quite clear. My argument is based on neither.

I am not saying and have never said that God sends people to hell.

You just said:

Bradski:

God doesn’t send people to hell on a whim.

God doesn’t send people to hell at all.

Bradski:

Neither is his omniscience responsible for sending people to hell nor could it be responsible. Omniscience purely refers to God’s complete and full knowledge of existence so it is nonsense to even suggest that someone could argue that knowledge determines anything at all.

My argument is based on the fact that God creates people knowing that they would refuse to accept God’s goodness and mercy. That is, knowing that they will end up in hell. You can have no dispute about this as I have posted exactly what you have said and you have agreed to this.

So please point out any problems with my argument that you see following the original premise. Which I will again state, has been agreed.

Yet when you use terms such as “pre-determined” in regards to their “destinies” and thus follow with your own conclusions, you’ve then set up and knocked down a strawman.

 

[oldcelt]

Knowledge + Creation= Responsibility A highly defensible argument in the real world. One that has cost corporations billions.

 

[Leviticus20vs13]

So it isn’t just me. That would be like me constantly tossing in obscure historic facts to try to impress people. It comes across as desperate and rude, particularly when the terms are misused.

Yep, an analogy of this can be found in my profession. Stock trading.

You have economists who like to use fancy phrases and esoteric language to fool other people into making them think that economists know what’s going on even though they don’t put their money where their esoteric “intelligent” mouth is.

Then you have practical people like me, traders, who actually have experience and a track record to prove that they know what they are doing.

In this case, by experience, e.g., not being able to see any of the gods in any of the religions in a consistent and practical manner, excludes the belief in magical gods to logical people who think car salesman faith is BS.

Whereas, by theory, these believers have no tangible evidence and just throw around the word faith as a car salesman can, e.g., cherry picked Bible passages, that sound ridiculous at best and dangerous at worst (just look up my username Leviticus 20:13)

 

[Leviticus20vs13]

God doesn’t send people to hell at all.

Yet when you use terms such as “pre-determined” in regards to their “destinies” and thus follow with your own conclusions, you’ve then set up and knocked down a strawman.

So then why did God create such a horrible place? I mean we outlaw meth because creating it does horrible things to people. So why did god create something that does an infinitely more horrible things to people?

Again buddy, and I’m not alone in this as you can see in other posts, please please stop using esoteric theory to explain why people on the forum are incorrect. Dumb it down my friend, you’ll get across to more people…unless you use the argument “have faith in me” that will just get you laughed at on the street haha

 

[Leviticus20vs13]

Knowledge + Creation= Responsibility A highly defensible argument in the real world. One that has cost corporations billions.

Yep, if I knowingly create something that I know will have a horrible effect on at least one of my children, I have failed in my responsibilities as a loving father, e.g., creating hell knowing that one will suffer for an ETERNITY by using fortune telling godly abilities as stated in the holy book of Revelations and the existence of Satan.

Again, creating meth is illegal/evil because it hurts people, so creating hell is infinitely more evil as it hurts people for eternity (or it is just an imaginary place written by an poorly educated bored man living in a cave thousands of years ago)

 

[Amandil]

No, I follow the scientific method, which basically states that **anything **can be falsified for an indeterminate amount of time. And the only current way we have of falsifying them is by using our senses, as that is all we have.

If you suppose that there is another way, use the scientific method to attempt to falsify it, and if you can’t falsify it, then you’re on to a good theory

But presenting magical fantastic **certain **hypotheses as Catholicism and every other of the thousands of religions have proposed, is probably just going to get you laughed out of the science lab though unless you have empirical evidence that can withstand scrutiny, just warning you.

There’s no scientific method for proving that only the scientific method proves the truth. “Accept nothing except what the scientific method proves” is thus self-contradictory.

What did he say? And who is Boethius? As I previously posted, stop using esoteric arguments to prove points…not everyone is as educated as you. I’m just a poor humble dumb stock trader

You’re apparently chosen to educate yourself enough to use a computer.

My point is as follows: Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence, and faith does not suffice. That is, you don’t give your money to just any idea, you give it to good-great ideas. And religion, including Catholicism, lacks the requirement (aside from arbitrarily made up ideas that have no evidence but the writings of some ancient person who did not have access to our modern education systems/tools) to give any money.

If ideas should be treated as guilty until proven innocent, that necessarily implies that the above idea is equally “extraordinary” and equally false.

Now you’re assuming I’m egocentric, haha jumping the gun aren’t you? And a bit presumptuous.

Call it an “empirical” observation.

Well guess, I can just tell you that God said I’m right and to have faith in my argument. See how using faith is ridiculous, in any context?

Whatever you say.

Oh and please don’t quote Jesus, unless you want me to quote a bunch of horrible things the bible says…I mean look at my username Leviticus 20:13, which comes from God’s perfect word, the Bible, and basically says that you aren’t following his rules and doing his bidding…I think you have a lot of killing to do if you really believe that rule of God in Leviticus 20:13…just saying

Clearly you don’t understand what you’re reading.

Not that I necessarily need the Bible in any case to poke holes in your rationale.

That’s the thing, I don’t even need to substantively prove that Christianity is true, I only need to prove that your arguments against Christianity are false(which they most certainly are).

But you’re welcome to try.

You sound very pompous in your statement haha yet you are certain that eating the meat of an invisible man and drinking his blood isn’t quaint? Again, I have a bridge to sell you in NYC…

Whatever you like. You’re opinion of me means next to nothing(thus I must certainly be “pompous”).

But I have to say that in regards to philosophy, or even using reason and logic correctly, you have a lot to learn.

 

[Amandil]

So then why did God create such a horrible place? I mean we outlaw meth because creating it does horrible things to people. So why did god create something that does an infinitely more horrible things to people?

God didn’t create hell, we did.

Again buddy, and I’m not alone in this as you can see in other posts, please please stop using esoteric theory to explain why people on the forum are incorrect. Dumb it down my friend, you’ll get across to more people…unless you use the argument “have faith in me” that will just get you laughed at on the street haha

A materialist/agnostic who resists expanding his mind but instead needs things “dumbed down”?

Are you even here to expand your horizons or simply to confirm your biases and prejudices?

If so you’re wasting your time and ours.

 

[Leviticus20vs13]

Going to sleep…thanks to all that argued with me and against me for the fun first experience on this board.

We all can disagree forever, but we MUST not hurt anyone, including misinformation for the good of ourselves and everything on this planet.

That is, if I argue that Superman is better than Batman with you for a while, then that isn’t going to hurt anyone.

But, if I educate my child telling him/her 2+2=17, then I will hurt my child by putting them at a disadvantage in life, as they will not know how the world really works.

Similarly, telling an uneducated single mother not to use a condom in a poor slum in Central American might produce 7 kids with poor resources and no access to good education. That is evil and those who espouse such ignorance are doing a lot of harm. As I came from a situation like this, but I was lucky, my brothers who are in jail were not, and my sisters who continue the cycle of poverty and ignorance were not as well.

So any religious person espousing unpractical magical rule/theory think about it twice next time you tell someone to follow God’s law, as you may be hurting innocent kids who are hungry and don’t have the best resources in this utterly competitive world, and as you probably don’t/shouldn’t follow it either (look up my username in any “holy” Bible and if you don’t follow that explicit law, then you’re a hypocrite)

Good night

 

[Amandil]

Going to sleep…thanks to all that argued with me and against me for the fun first experience on this board.

We all can disagree forever, but we MUST not hurt anyone, including misinformation for the good of ourselves and everything on this planet.

That is, if I argue that Superman is better than Batman with you for a while, then that isn’t going to hurt anyone.

But, if I educate my child telling him/her 2+2=17, then I will hurt my child by putting them at a disadvantage in life, as they will not know how the world really works.

Similarly, telling an uneducated single mother not to use a condom in a poor slum in Central American might produce 7 kids with poor resources and no access to good education. That is evil and those who espouse such ignorance are doing a lot of harm. As I came from a situation like this, but I was lucky, my brothers who are in jail were not, and my sisters who continue the cycle of poverty and ignorance were not as well.

So any religious person espousing unpractical magical rule/theory think about it twice next time you tell someone to follow God’s law, as you may be hurting innocent kids who are hungry and don’t have the best resources in this utterly competitive world, and as you probably don’t/shouldn’t follow it either (look up my username in any “holy” Bible and if you don’t follow that explicit law, then you’re a hypocrite)

Good night

This is preaching/editorializing, not logic or reasoning.

 

[Leviticus20vs13]

Oh and to Amandil:

Yes, I have a lot to learn, and have continued to expand my horizons…as my brother is a Catholic priest.

But like him, your rational and logical arguments just don’t cut it in the real world.

If I as a rich man do not help stop suffering and pain in my community, I consider myself a poor waste of existence.

Now imagine if I were an all powerful being? What kind of horrible person would I be, if I grant the wishes of a few already established people, but nothing for those starving and damned people in Africa?

Oh and yes I know, God has a divine plan for them…good night

 

[oldcelt]

So then why did God create such a horrible place? I mean we outlaw meth because creating it does horrible things to people. So why did god create something that does an infinitely more horrible things to people?

Again buddy, and I’m not alone in this as you can see in other posts, please please stop using esoteric theory to explain why people on the forum are incorrect. Dumb it down my friend, you’ll get across to more people…unless you use the argument “have faith in me” that will just get you laughed at on the street haha

The God doesn’t send people to hell is a rather new attempt to take the responsibility from god. I can assure you that as a young Catholic I was taught something very different. They still tried to use the all-loving line, but God judged you and sentenced you. That had the maximum fear factor.

If the new approach is true, what if people were to refuse to go to hell?

 

[Amandil]

Oh and to Amandil:

Yes, I have a lot to learn, and have continued to expand my horizons…as my brother is a Catholic priest.

But like him, your rational and logical arguments just don’t cut it in the real world.

The cognitive dissonance displayed in the above sentence is rather impressive.

If you really think so, then follow your scientific method and perform the experiment. Be a Christian.

If not, all you have is an unsubstantiated theory.

If I as a rich man do not help stop suffering and pain in my community, I consider myself a poor waste of existence.

Now imagine if I were an all powerful being? What kind of horrible person would I be, if I grant the wishes of a few already established people, but nothing for those starving and damned people in Africa?

Oh and yes I know, God has a divine plan for them…good night

Again, you miss the point.

 

[Leviticus20vs13]

The cognitive dissonance displayed in the above sentence is rather impressive.

If you really think so, then follow your scientific method and perform the experiment. Be a Christian.

If not, all you have is an unsubstantiated theory.

Again, you miss the point.

Couldn’t go to sleep, will have more fun with you guys…

So again, please stop with the esoteric language man. I understand what inconsistent thoughts/beliefs are (cognitive dissonance), e.g., trying to reconcile the fact that the Bible explicitly states that you must murder homosexuals, that god flooded the planet to kill the disobedient, decimated cities that aren’t nearly as decadent as the ones of today, with the idea that god is a loving god that forgives all.

You must know with your education that many people do NOT know what it is. I know this with my limited education. And you come off as very pompous when doing so. So either you are a troll just trying to argue, or you are someone who likes to feel superior to those who are not as holy and “educated” as thou? If I’m wrong, why are you on here?

I have been a Christian/Catholic, and by the mere fact that Catholic higher ups throughout history have consistently changed around and do not follow the holy perfect word of there god is evidence enough that the theory is BS, e.g., indulgences, Pope Francis’ leniency toward homosexuality, the holiest of the flock not following explicit rules in the Bible, e.g., kill homosexuals, disobedient children, and those that work on the sabbath.

Finally, how am I suppose to read the passage my username references? Please tell me…here is the quote, “If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.”

So you have a lot of killing to do if you really follow God’s law