Why doesn't God just not create the bad people to keep them from going to hell

[fred_conty]

Actually, I never said that no one would go to hell.

I said that Jesus went to “everyone’s hell” since hell is custom-built by its inhabitant and in doing so Jesus “won” the “keys” to the “netherworld” which is hell and death (physical and spiritual).

What I also said is that God’s Plan which God has had since before creation is for ALL, ultimately, to be with God in God’s Kingdom, the new heavens and the new earth.

IOW God will use these “keys” that God-Incarnate “won” in due time, God’s Time.

I don’t know any of the “details” and I don’t need to know any of the details but it will not be God’s Will that will be frustrated but satan’s will.

As I have said before, God’s Victory Is Total and satan’s defeat is total, a tie is absolutely and utterly unacceptable.

Then what this says is that some people will go to hell, but the keys to their hell dwelling will be used to free them at some point, so that all will be released for heaven, and hell will be empty? Just asking to clarify.

 

[Tom_Baum]

Then what this says is that some people will go to hell, but the keys to their hell dwelling will be used to free them at some point, so that all will be released for heaven, and hell will be empty? Just asking to clarify.

Basically yes but to the “new heaven/s and the new earth”, whatever that is.

Whenever the “new heaven/s and the new earth” are mentioned, it is also mentioned that all of the old, or words to that effect, is passed away which includes hell and our ability to construct our own hell.

It is written, “On the seventh day, God blest, rested and made holy”.

Jesus said, “My Father has been busy even until now”.

Sounds like we are in the sixth day but that the seventh day will arrive when it arrives.

Just as Jesus told us, “The ‘gates of the netherworld’ shall NOT prevail against It”.

It isn’t that God has a change in plans, it is that God has a Plan and has had God’s Plan since before creation itself.

 

[oldcelt]

Since God’s knowledge does not cause our free choices to act morally, or not, this a moot point. None of God’s knowledge nullifies our responsibitly for our actions.

Maybe his knowledge doesn’t, but his creation with that knowledge certainly does. Just like any manufacturer…you build a faulty product, someone gets hurt…you’re responsible.

 

[Charlemagne_III]

I’m glad that you agree. Even with all the free will you want, you can’t do anything. From God’s viewpoint (He can see everything throughout all time), you already have made the choices which will send you to hell. From your perspective, you can do nothing but make those choice (‘what happens is that every choice you then make to avoid the future you know leads you inexorably towards the very thing which you’re trying to avoid’).

What you are trying to do here is indict God for giving anyone the freedom to choose hell.

God **knows **where we will end up, but **he does not pre-ordain us **to where we will end up.

Do you get the difference?

 

[desales09]

Fred Conty (and anyone else who may know):

I’m sorry, this is a little out of the format of discussion, but I am fascinated by the points you are making about how each person’s life influence others, and that even those who end up going to hell may have influenced others to live right and go to heaven. Are there any good books you can recommend that examine this issue directly?

Lee

 

[Flagstone]

St. Faustina said that she was told by God that he wanted her to visit hell. She declined, but she said God insisted that she do so. An angel accompanied her. Breifly to sum it up, it was every bit as bad as it was said to be without going into detail, and she did give details. She said that most of the people in hell had not believed in it before they died. And she also remarked that noone should say ever again that noone has been there and not come back to tell us about it, because she said she had seen it with her own eyes and has come back to tell about it.

I believe her because she isn’t the lieing kind, and she didn’t want to go there to see it to begin with.

May God bless and keep you. May God’s face shine on you. May God be kind to you and give you peace.

Why didn’t God just show hell to the people who didn’t believe in it before they died? Then they would have more info. and could have chosen not to go there.

 

[desales09]

Maybe his knowledge doesn’t, but his creation with that knowledge certainly does. Just like any manufacturer…you build a faulty product, someone gets hurt…you’re responsible.

But what the manufacturer isn’t responsible for is the damage done through the misuse of their product. A chainsaw is manufactured for cutting wood; if it’s used by a murderer to kill someone, it’s not the manufacturers fault. Or if you mix ammonia with bleach, it is not the fault of those who supply either product if you die as a result. The intended product works just fine; it’s the foolish use of the product that gets people into trouble. Similarly, God’s design of man is faultless. We’re the ones who chose, through free will (which is morally neutral and can be used either for good or for evil), to walk away from God and good, and so spoil the product (our human nature). It’s God’s work to redeem this product,and He has done so, if we will individually appropriate this redemption.

 

[fred_conty]

Basically yes but to the “new heaven/s and the new earth”, whatever that is.

Whenever the “new heaven/s and the new earth” are mentioned, it is also mentioned that all of the old, or words to that effect, is passed away which includes hell and our ability to construct our own hell.

It is written, “On the seventh day, God blest, rested and made holy”.

Jesus said, “My Father has been busy even until now”.

Sounds like we are in the sixth day but that the seventh day will arrive when it arrives.

Just as Jesus told us, “The ‘gates of the netherworld’ shall NOT prevail against It”.

It isn’t that God has a change in plans, it is that God has a Plan and has had God’s Plan since before creation itself.

“As the blessedness of the good angels is of eternal duration (Mt.18,10) so the punishment of the bad angels is also without end. Mt.25,41: ‘Depart from me ye cursed into everlasting fire, which was prepared for the devil and his angels.’ Jud 6: ‘…in everlasting chains’; Apoc.20,10; ‘and the false prophet shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.’”

“The belief of Origen…concerning the restoration of all things, according to which the damned angels and men, after a long period of purification, will be reestablished in grace and will return to God, was rejected at a Synod of Constantinople (543) as heretical”

The above from Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma by Ott p. 119-120.

“The punishment of Hell lasts for all eternity (de fide)” Same P.481

“The chief punishment of hell is eternal separation from God…” CCC 1035

May God bless and keep you. May God’s face shine on you. May God be kind to you and give you peace.

 

[fred_conty]

Why didn’t God just show hell to the people who didn’t believe in it before they died? Then they would have more info. and could have chosen not to go there.

Because they would be the last ones to believe it even if they went there. They would say it was some kind of weird party, or it was a bad dream, or it was a figment of their imagination, but never would they acknowledge it for what it really is.

Just like the miracle of Fatima. And I am not referring to the miracle of the sun, but rather to the miracle of the mud. It rained almost all night and into the morning. The ground was muck. The people were soaked. After the sun did it’s dance in space, the people and the ground were dry.

And unless everyone carried an electric blowdrier with batteries charged, there was no way that could have happened. Oh but the skeptics found ways to deny the whole thing. So what good did that miraculous event do the skeptics?

So what good would it do perform another miracle and show them the horrible suffering awaiting those who laugh at hell. They would just shake it off as another fluke to be explained away later by science even tho science dosen’t have an answer.

May God bless and keep you. May God’s face shine on you. May God be kind to you and give you peace.

 

[Charlemagne_III]

So what good would it do perform another miracle and show them the horrible suffering awaiting those who laugh at hell. They would just shake it off as another fluke to be explained away later by science even tho science dosen’t have an answer…

Right.

We don’t get to see heaven or hell until we are dead, and then we don’t get to see one or the other unless we have deserved the right to see it. In scripture they have both been described in general terms; one as a place of great delight and reward in the presence of God; the other as a place of burning thirst and regret for having chosen it.

 

[Bradski]

But what the manufacturer isn’t responsible for is the damage done through the misuse of their product. A chainsaw is manufactured for cutting wood; if it’s used by a murderer to kill someone, it’s not the manufacturers fault.

What if the manufacturer knew that his product would be used to kill someone? What if I told him that if he makes a particular chainsaw then it will be used to kill someone? Not might kill someone but will kill someone

The person using it to kill is not compelled to use it for that purpose but does so of his own free will. But you appear to be saying that the manufacturer bears no responsibility at all.

Should he?

 

[fred_conty]

Fred Conty (and anyone else who may know):

I’m sorry, this is a little out of the format of discussion, but I am fascinated by the points you are making about how each person’s life influence others, and that even those who end up going to hell may have influenced others to live right and go to heaven. Are there any good books you can recommend that examine this issue directly?

Lee

No I don’t know of any particular books but the catholic doctrine of the mystical body of Christ is built on this. For we are all one body in Chirst, and what affects one in some way affects others.

For instance, if a catholic is in serious sin and without the life of God within them, they are still attached to the living mystical body of Christ. And by being so, they are helped by the prayers and spiritual gifts of their brothers and sisters.

This doctrine is even explained by St. Paul referring to the various organs of the body, and each organ’s dependency on the other. So that the eye cannot say to the ear, “I have no need of you”.

So that if we fail, others are dependent on us will be affected in some spiritual way. We are connected. And soJesus told us that “by this all men will know you are my disciples, if you have love for one another.” And why St. Paul was told by Christ in a blinding light, “Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting me?” Jesus identifies others as himself. We are one, and we receive one bread…that of Jesus himself.

So from the interconnection with everyone we meet or contact, we in some way influence them…for the better or for the worse. And then again Jesus told us that it would be better fate for someone to have a millstone hung around their neck and thrown into the sea than to lead another person into evil. And again we are all connected thru Adam and Eve, our parents.

But there are other aspects of this idea as well…suppose a good person, which every person is, will not reach his final good destination, but in the beginning of his life he was able to help others who did reach their final good destination because of his influence. Then not creating that good person could then be eliminating the contributary cause of others not reaching their good ending. And then these that didn’t reach their good ending would influence others… We can see this in AA…the power of helping one another because of their experience with evil.

May God bless and keep you. May God’s face shine on you. May God be kind to you and give you peace.

 

[fred_conty]

What if the manufacturer knew that his product would be used to kill someone? What if I told him that if he makes a particular chainsaw then it will be used to kill someone? Not might kill someone but will kill someone

The person using it to kill is not compelled to use it for that purpose but does so of his own free will. But you appear to be saying that the manufacturer bears no responsibility at all.

Should he?

If I were that smart to know the exact chainsaw that would be used to murder someone, then I would also know the exact person that was going to be murdered. In which case I would notify the proper authorities.

And if I didn’t know the name of the person about to be murdered, then I would notify the proper authorities about the exact chainsaw that would be used in the crime. Then they could watch the chainsaw and catch the culprit.

May God bless and keep you. May God’s face shine on you. May God be kind to you and give you peace.

 

[Bradski]

As far as, “then God knows that they will end up in hell when He creates them”, I disagree with this somewhat in that I believe that God “knows” this even before God creates them.

We seem to be having some problem in using a tense that is acceptable to all when we are trying to describe events in a temporal manner when it comes to God. But yes, I have no problem with what you have said. Trying to get that point across myself is proving to be quite difficult. Hopefully others will read what you have written and accept it as well.

And while we are at it, this is another point with which I agree. Ending up in hell is purely the result of choices we make using our own free will.

I agree that God does not send anyone to hell.

Hey, and yet another…

You wrote, “Nor does his omniscience predetermine that they are hell-bound.”, but God’s Omniscience would “know” that they are hell-bound or God would not be Omniscient. So wouldn’t God have “decided in advance” that He “knew” that this one or that one would end up in hell?

There is NO such thing as partial Omniscience, God is either Omniscient or God isn’t.

Why do so many people argue against this? God knows everything, so He has always known if you are going to be there or not.

If God had not created a good parent because he/she would end badly, then all those good generations of people down the line who would have been created and gone to heaven, now will be denied heaven because their parent was not created. Is that fair to deny generations of good people their happiness because of someone else?

Has someone been arguing that God should not create people that He knows will do harm? I haven’t and I won’t. Your point is a good one and I agree with it. And here’s another:

Since God’s knowledge does not cause our free choices to act morally, or not, this a moot point. None of God’s knowledge nullifies our responsibitly for our actions.

I agree with that as well. Who are you guys arguing with? You seem to be reading a lot of things into posts that are simply not there. We are completely responsible for what we do. Not much point in giving us free will otherwise…

 

[Bradski]

God **knows **where we will end up, but **he does not pre-ordain us **to where we will end up.

Meet Joe. Joe is in hell. He hates it. He ended up there by rejecting God’s grace (and doing lots of other bad stuff). He did all that by making choices of his free will. There were his choices alone. God didn’t influence his choices and in fact gave Joe all the opportunities he needed to avoid going to hell.

Here’s a couple of points we can make about Joe.

1. God knows he is in hell. He has always known he was in hell. When Joe went to hell, it didn’t come as a surprise to God (obviously because God is omniscient). I think that’s a given.
2. Joe was created by God. I don’t think any more need be said – that’s a given as well.
3. It then follows that when God created Joe, He knew that Joe was going to end up in hell.

Is there anything at all in that with which you disagree?

If I were that smart to know the exact chainsaw that would be used to murder someone, then I would…

No Fred. It requires a yes or no answer. This isn’t an episode of CSI where we can opt to stake out the bad guy and put secret electronic tracking devices in the chain saw.

I realise that it’s a tricky question to answer because saying that the manufacturer bears no responsibility just doesn’t sound right to you. If this was a dinner table discussion and no-one had mentioned God you’d be arguing that anyone in his right senses could see that he had responsibility.

And if you say that he does bear responsibility, well it doesn’t take a Rhodes scholar to see where that could lead.

Net result: no answer at all. Which is actually all the answer we need.

 

[davidv]

{snip}
I agree with that as well. Who are you guys arguing with?

Those you claim that God should not create anyone who rejects Him.

You seem to be reading a lot of things into posts that are simply not there. We are completely responsible for what we do. Not much point in giving us free will otherwise…

Maybe because of the past posting history some posters?

 

[Bradski]

Those you claim that God should not create anyone who rejects Him.

That’s not me, so bear that in mind if you reply to any of my posts.

Maybe because of the past posting history some posters?

Can I respectfully propose that you read what’s written and not base your understanding of it on what someone might have said at some time elsewhere.

 

[davidv]

That’s not me, so bear that in mind if you reply to any of my posts.

Can I respectfully propose that you read what’s written and not base your understanding of it on what someone might have said at some time elsewhere.

That is true. But you asked a question, which I answered.

 

[Charlemagne_III]

Meet Joe. Joe is in hell. He hates it. He ended up there by rejecting God’s grace (and doing lots of other bad stuff). He did all that by making choices of his free will. There were his choices alone. God didn’t influence his choices and in fact gave Joe all the opportunities he needed to avoid going to hell.

Here’s a couple of points we can make about Joe.

1. God knows he is in hell. He has always known he was in hell. When Joe went to hell, it didn’t come as a surprise to God (obviously because God is omniscient). I think that’s a given.
2. Joe was created by God. I don’t think any more need be said – that’s a given as well.
3. It then follows that when God created Joe, He knew that Joe was going to end up in hell.

Is there anything at all in that with which you disagree?

Those two short sentences I’m not sure about. The rest, yes.

It may well be that Joe hates hell, but it may also be that Joe hates God more than he hates hell, and would rather be as far away from God as he can get. That is implicit in the behavior of sinners of all types. They just don’t love God, and might not miss him, even in hell.

We don’t know. I certainly don’t know and eschatology is a rather vague science … except for the part about bliss and suffering.

And that is why, if you’re not infallibly certain of atheism, you shouldn’t be betting the farm against God.

 

[Bradski]

Those two short sentences I’m not sure about. The rest, yes.

Sorry, which bits were you not sure about? I want tot make sure we’re on the same page.

And that is why, if you’re not infallibly certain of atheism, you shouldn’t be betting the farm against God.

Doubt is an uncomfortable position, but certainty is ridiculous: Voltaire.

You might note that the quote is applicable to both of us…