Why doesn't God just not create the bad people to keep them from going to hell

[oldcelt]

What? Some three and half thousand year old mud brick walls were discovered to have fallen down? Why wasn’t I told…

And the most recent archaeology shows that Jericho was largely abandoned at the time of Joshua.

 

[JapaneseKappa]

So, no Davidic dynasty? No Solomon nor His temple. No rebellion and division of Israel and Judah? No Assyrian invasion if Israel? No diaspora? No invasion of Judah by the Babylonians and the end of the Davidic kings by Nebuchadnezzar? No exile in Babylon?

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historicity_of_the_Bible#Maximalist_.E2.80.93_Minimalist_dichotomy

In this [minimalist] view, all of the stories about the biblical patriarchs are fictional, and the patriarchs mere legendary eponyms to describe later historical realities. Further, biblical minimalists hold that the twelve tribes of Israel were a later construction, the stories of King David and King Saul were modeled upon later Irano-Hellenistic examples, and that there is no archaeological evidence that the united kingdom of Israel, which the Bible says that David and Solomon ruled over an empire from the Euphrates to Eilath, ever existed.

 

[Tom_Baum]

Ok. So you don’t believe humans have free will? And no moral responsibility?

If God truly is Omniscient than God “knows” everything that we will do with our free will, wouldn’t this be true?

Do you think that it is impossible for us to have free will AND for God to know everything that we will do even before we are created?

Do you think/believe that the only thing that can occur, judgement-wise with moral responsibility, is for those that have done wrong without repenting before their breathing stops is to go to hell for ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever…?

Ever thought that God might, just might, temper Justice with Mercy?

I find it absolutely astounding that so many speak of God’s “INFINITE MERCY” and yet in the same breath, so casually, speak of hell lasting forever and seemingly never giving any thought to the longevity of for ever and ever… .

I just can not believe that God did ALL that He did, in the Incarnation, so that a mere handful can be with God for ever and ever and…, and the vast majority of those made in the “Image and Likeness of God” will be in a “place, state, whatever one wishes to call it” that is horrible beyond our conception for ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever…, what kind of God does this “conception” of God seem to be for anyone who is actually willing to think?

A lot of fancy adjectives mean absolutely nothing if the “god,God” of anyone’s “conception” is beyond despicable.

Seems like quite a few think of “justice” as “throwing away the key”, could be that God not only has a “Plan” but has had that “Plan” since before creation and God “knows” just how to “clean all of us up” and also how to “get us to want to be cleaned up”, IOW God just might be “worthy” of ALL of the “fancy” adjectives that have ever been attributed to God.

 

[fred_conty]

If God truly is Omniscient than God “knows” everything that we will do with our free will, wouldn’t this be true?

Do you think that it is impossible for us to have free will AND for God to know everything that we will do even before we are created?

Do you think/believe that the only thing that can occur, judgement-wise with moral responsibility, is for those that have done wrong without repenting before their breathing stops is to go to hell for ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever…?

Ever thought that God might, just might, temper Justice with Mercy?

I find it absolutely astounding that so many speak of God’s “INFINITE MERCY” and yet in the same breath, so casually, speak of hell lasting forever and seemingly never giving any thought to the longevity of for ever and ever… .

I just can not believe that God did ALL that He did, in the Incarnation, so that a mere handful can be with God for ever and ever and…, and the vast majority of those made in the “Image and Likeness of God” will be in a “place, state, whatever one wishes to call it” that is horrible beyond our conception for ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever…, what kind of God does this “conception” of God seem to be for anyone who is actually willing to think?

A lot of fancy adjectives mean absolutely nothing if the “god,God” of anyone’s “conception” is beyond despicable.

Seems like quite a few think of “justice” as “throwing away the key”, could be that God not only has a “Plan” but has had that “Plan” since before creation and God “knows” just how to “clean all of us up” and also how to “get us to want to be cleaned up”, IOW God just might be “worthy” of ALL of the “fancy” adjectives that have ever been attributed to God.

I can understand your concern, and share your feelings of sorrow for those who won’t make it to heaven. And Jesus does as well, for he above all suffered so that everyone could find their happiness with him.

But on the other hand, Jesus did tell us several parables explaining why this happens. The parable of the man who was invited to a great feast but showed up in rags instead of a nice garment. He was thrown out, not because he was poor, but because he showed disrespect to his host and his guests.

If a person does not have the garment of divine grace in their soul, then the divine wedding feast of heaven will be denied to them. And the person that is denied their place at this table was furnished with all the necessary means to have this divine grace. For God is mercifull and loving and would not deny anything necessary for anyone to be at this table. Which leaves us with only one thought…that of a person not caring about anyone else and of ignoring all the help they were offered. For there is no other explaination that fits if we truely know Jesus.

May God bless and keep you. May God’s face shine on you. May God be kind to you and give you peace.

 

[Tom_Baum]

We also have to reckon with the infinite power of evil which stems from God’s gift of free will. Hell has its compensations…

Where did you come up with this “infinite power of evil”?

Does this “infinite power of evil” cancel out God’s INFINITE POWER?

I suppose that you think/believe that hell is for ever and ever and…, what would the “compensations” be in the "Hell has its compensations…?

Would these “compensations” be for the others in hell or would they also be for you if you wind up in hell?

 

[Tom_Baum]

I can understand your concern, and share your feelings of sorrow for those who won’t make it to heaven. And Jesus does as well, for he above all suffered so that everyone could find their happiness with him.

But on the other hand, Jesus did tell us several parables explaining why this happens. The parable of the man who was invited to a great feast but showed up in rags instead of a nice garment. He was thrown out, not because he was poor, but because he showed disrespect to his host and his guests.

If a person does not have the garment of divine grace in their soul, then the divine wedding feast of heaven will be denied to them. And the person that is denied their place at this table was furnished with all the necessary means to have this divine grace. For God is mercifull and loving and would not deny anything necessary for anyone to be at this table. Which leaves us with only one thought…that of a person not caring about anyone else and of ignoring all the help they were offered. For there is no other explaination that fits if we truely know Jesus.

May God bless and keep you. May God’s face shine on you. May God be kind to you and give you peace.

As far as “For there is no other explaination that fits if we truely know Jesus.”

There is NO explanation period if we take Jesus at His Word when He said concerning who can be saved, “With man it is impossible, with God EVERYTHING is possible”.

I am not saying that there will not be a judgement and I am also not saying that some will go thru “things” that are beyond our “conception” but that God has a PLAN and since it is God’s WILL that ALL be saved, then God’s WILL will come to Fruition.

No one is beyond God’s ability to “clean up” and no one is beyond God’s ability to “convince” them of their need of “cleaning up”, just because we haven’t “figured out” how God can and will do this, does not mean that it is beyond God’s ability to do it.

 

[Tom_Baum]

God knows everything that is knowable. The activity of **non-existent **persons does not fit into that category. It is impossible to know nothing!

NB “before” is inapplicable to divine knowledge and activity.

As far as “non-existent persons”, are you speaking of a “person” that will never actually be a person, as in hypothetical or a “person” that will be a person but is not yet a person?

If you as speaking of a person who “will be a person but is not yet a person” and that God CAN’T know what this person will do than you are saying that God is NOT Omniscient?

Which is it?

Is it that the person is hypothetical or that God is NOT Omniscient?

 

[Tom_Baum]

This is the false assumption on which your erroneous conclusion rests. God’s people are created innocent. If they end up hell bound that is their personal responsibility. God did not create them hell bound.

This sure isn’t what the bible or the Catholic Church says.

Isn’t there something about ORIGINAL SIN?

As far as “God did not create them hell bound”, if one believes that God is Omniscient than one would also have to believe that God “knew” all who were “hell bound”, as you put it, even before any of them were created, wouldn’t the one who believes that God is Omniscient also have to believe this if they gave it any thought at all?

 

[Tom_Baum]

Since this has not had a reply, I thought I’d add my :twocents:

In my existence, God knows me from my conception to my death. He knows all my thoughts, my feelings my choices, and the reasons for those choices. He is infinite compassion.
He exists in eternity. You could say He has known me always, because time is His creation and I exist within creation.
He was with me when I was conceived and He will be with me when I say my final prayer in this life.
In my existence, He was and will be with me then, as He is with me now.
We change; He does not change - His being, love and beauty exist in every place and every time
Once created, I exist in eternity - I am known by God.
Rev 1:8 “I am the Alpha and the Omega–the beginning and the end,” says the Lord God. “I am the one who is, who always was, and who is still to come–the Almighty One.”

“The first shall be last and the last shall be first”, sounds kind of catholic to me, does it to anyone else?

 

[fhansen]

If God truly is Omniscient than God “knows” everything that we will do with our free will, wouldn’t this be true?

Do you think that it is impossible for us to have free will AND for God to know everything that we will do even before we are created?

Do you think/believe that the only thing that can occur, judgement-wise with moral responsibility, is for those that have done wrong without repenting before their breathing stops is to go to hell for ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever…?

Ever thought that God might, just might, temper Justice with Mercy?

I find it absolutely astounding that so many speak of God’s “INFINITE MERCY” and yet in the same breath, so casually, speak of hell lasting forever and seemingly never giving any thought to the longevity of for ever and ever… .

I just can not believe that God did ALL that He did, in the Incarnation, so that a mere handful can be with God for ever and ever and…, and the vast majority of those made in the “Image and Likeness of God” will be in a “place, state, whatever one wishes to call it” that is horrible beyond our conception for ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever…, what kind of God does this “conception” of God seem to be for anyone who is actually willing to think?

A lot of fancy adjectives mean absolutely nothing if the “god,God” of anyone’s “conception” is beyond despicable.

Seems like quite a few think of “justice” as “throwing away the key”, could be that God not only has a “Plan” but has had that “Plan” since before creation and God “knows” just how to “clean all of us up” and also how to “get us to want to be cleaned up”, IOW God just might be “worthy” of ALL of the “fancy” adjectives that have ever been attributed to God.

Either we truly have free will, as you apparently agree with, in which case we can oppose God, rejecting His love and everything He could do, or we don’t really have free will.

 

[Amandil]

These are well known through other sources and do not require the intervention of God. For your last statement I listed some of the major tenets of the Jewish/Christian faiths for which there is not one shred of evidence.

Whatever you say.

 

[Amandil]

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historicity_of_the_Bible#Maximalist_.E2.80.93_Minimalist_dichotomy

So you pick out a passage of an article which supports your views proves what exactly?

 

[JapaneseKappa]

So you pick out a passage of an article which supports your views proves what exactly?

That there are serious scholars who consider plausible the hypotheses you seemed to think risible.

 

[Amandil]

That there are serious scholars who consider plausible the hypotheses you seemed to think risible.

And there are just as many serious scholars who think their arguments from silence are worthy of incredulity.

All you’ve proven is that there is an argument. Nothing more.

 

[whoisdiss]

Romans 3:10, "As it is written: ‘There is no one righteous, not even one;’"

 

[fred_conty]

Originally posted by Tom Baum
There is NO explanation period if we take Jesus at His Word when He said concerning who can be saved, “With man it is impossible, with God EVERYTHING is possible.”

Then what did Jesus mean by the parable of the man who was ejected from the banquet because he was without the proper garment? Why even bother to give this example of someone not making it to heaven if Jesus was going to save him anyway?

May God bless and keep you. May God’s face shine on you. May God be kind to you and give you peace.

 

[tonyrey]

Where did you come up with this “infinite power of evil”?

The fact that a person can reject God for all eternity is sufficient evidence.

Does this “infinite power of evil” cancel out God’s INFINITE POWER?

Obviously not but it frustrates God’s Will that everyone should be in heaven.

I suppose that you think/believe that hell is for ever and ever and…, what would the “compensations” be in the "Hell has its compensations…?

The pleasure and satisfaction of being independent, having absolute power over oneself and owing allegiance to no one.

Would these “compensations” be for the others in hell or would they also be for you if you wind up in hell?

The lust for power is the fundamental reason why a person rejects God.

 

[Aloysium]

“The first shall be last and the last shall be first”, sounds kind of catholic to me, does it to anyone else?

This means that the world is upside-down.
The one who serves is greater than the one being served.
I refer you to the beatitudes.

Seriously, you’ve got to get your mind out of hell.
What you post goes against what the Church teaches.
At any rate get out.
Or, perhaps what you have to leave the image of yourself there, and spiritually be reborn.
Move on - look to the light.
Even Nietzsche knew that if you stare too long into the abyss, it will stare back at you.

 

[oldcelt]

The fact that a person can reject God for all eternity is sufficient evidence.

Obviously not but it frustrates God’s Will that everyone should be in heaven.

The pleasure and satisfaction of being independent, having absolute power over oneself and owing allegiance to no one.

The lust for power is the fundamental reason why a person rejects God.

Someone that that god created with infallible foreknowledge. I know that is an uncomfortable fact in Christianity, but it is all there in the documents of the faith.

 

[tonyrey]

Someone that that god created with infallible foreknowledge. I know that is an uncomfortable fact in Christianity, but it is all there in the documents of the faith.

It is an uncomfortable fact that all of us have the right to choose what to believe and how to live. Do you deny people who strongly disagree with you the right to life even when you know they are making themselves and others extremely miserable?