Why doesn't my parish have kneelers?

[whatevergirl]

This is on my parish’s website, a question and answer section for the head pastor of the church. I always wondered why some parishes (ours) don’t have kneelers…and here is the answer…(in case you wondered if it was appropriate)

***People have asked:

Why do we not have kneelers?

The normative posture for prayer in the Hebrew Scriptures and in the New Testament was standing. Up through the 11th century, in fact, “kneeling was not considered an official posture for the eucharistic prayer” and the Council of Nicea (325) even legislated specifically against kneeling at Sunday liturgy. In fact, it was not until the 13th century, that kneeling arose during the Eucharistic prayer as an act of veneration and adoration at the Elevation of the Host. The adoption of the Missal of 1570 resulted in a practice in which everyone would eventually be found either kneeling or genuflecting at the consecration. Eventually kneeling became the norm throughout the entire mass.

Even though the revision of the GIRM in 1969 called for standing during the Eucharistic prayer, the bishops of the United States voted to retain the custom of kneeling. The new edition of the GIRM indicates that the faithful should stand “from the invitation Pray, brethren, until the end of mass. In the United States, however, this practice is supplanted by a directive for kneeling “ beginning after the singing of the Sanctus until after the Amen of the Eucharistic Prayer, and again after the Lamb of God, unless the local Bishop determines otherwise.

In this parish, as our old church was a multi-purpose building, we had the practice of standing. The Bishop gave us permission to continue that practice which actually allows us to be in conformity with the directive for the universal church.

GIRM = General Instruction of the Roman Missal. ***

 

[Walking_Home]

Whose mind are many of our parishes and diocese following.

vatican.va/roman_curia/synod/documents/rc_synod_doc_20050707_instrlabor-xi-assembly_en.html

1. …

Some responses are very encouraging, however. Based on the guidelines set down in The General Instruction on the Roman Missal, diverse initiatives have been undertaken to ensure that sacred spaces in already existent Churches and those under construction be true places of prayer and adoration, where art and iconography become instruments to serve liturgical needs. **For example, in some Churches, kneelers have returned along with the practice of the faithful kneeling during the Eucharistic Prayer. **Tabernacles, previously not clearly visible, have again been placed in the sanctuary or in a prominent place. The planning of new Churches is providing greater prominence to art, decoration, vestments and sacred vessels. This seeks to bring into harmony the nearness of the celebrant to the people and the sacred nature of the divine mysteries which are, at one and the same time, immanent and transcendent.

 

[belgianwaffles9]

one thing that annoys me most about this Post-Vatican II stuff, like getting rid of kneelers, is that is denies the hermeneutic of continuity, which in turn denies that the Catholic Church can continue to grow. Denying the hermeneutic of continuity is a pretty protestant idea.

 

[tcraig]

****In this parish, as our old church was a multi-purpose building, we had the practice of standing. ****

---

But presumably, based on this statement, you are no longer in the old multi-purpose building, but in a new purpose-built church. One wonders why, then, kneelers weren’t included in the new design. ***

 

[whatevergirl]

---

But presumably, based on this statement, you are no longer in the old multi-purpose building, but in a new purpose-built church. One wonders why, then, kneelers weren’t included in the new design. ***

Yes I wonder that myself, upon reading that! But, it somewhat calmed my concerns about it being irreverent. There is a historical explanation for it…thank you for your replies all!

 

[nobeerinheaven]

I’m surprised the question isn’t: “Why am I still going to a parish that doesn’t have kneelers?”

 

[whatevergirl]

I’m surprised the question isn’t: “Why am I still going to a parish that doesn’t have kneelers?”

I guess the answer our priest gave isn’t sufficient (for you)…but, if the universal Church does not mandate kneelers…why should we move to another parish? Most parishes we have seen here in Florida don’t have kneelers. I do miss a church like this, but I am glad to see an explanation of it by our parish priest.

 

[nobeerinheaven]

There’s no sin or violation of canon law, it just breaks from established liturgical custom in the Catholic church - seemingly without any reason, merely change for change’s sake. You can still go there; I wouldn’t, though.

 

[whatevergirl]

There’s no sin or violation of canon law, it just breaks from established liturgical custom in the Catholic church - seemingly without any reason, merely change for change’s sake. You can still go there; I wouldn’t, though.

I don’t think anything ‘changed,’ seeing that kneeling did not become customary until the late 13th century. (during adoration and prepartion for the Eucharist) From what the priest posts about this–it appears as though kneeling was the change. (that became customary) I don’t disagree with your sentiments on it–we love this new parish, and if kneelers were present–it would be as near as perfect for us as can be.

 

[scylla]

The normative posture for prayer in the Hebrew Scriptures and in the New Testament was standing. Up through the 11th century, in fact, “kneeling was not considered an official posture for the eucharistic prayer” and the Council of Nicea (325) even legislated specifically against kneeling at Sunday liturgy. In fact, it was not until the 13th century, that kneeling arose during the Eucharistic prayer as an act of veneration and adoration at the Elevation of the Host.
So out of respect for God, and a devotion to the presence of Christ, we developed kneeling to acknowledge Him

The adoption of the Missal of 1570 resulted in a practice in which everyone would eventually be found either kneeling or genuflecting at the consecration. Eventually kneeling became the norm throughout the entire mass.
So is this a good thing, looks like it since it became the norm
Even though the revision of the GIRM in 1969 called for standing during the Eucharistic prayer, the bishops of the United States voted to retain the custom of kneeling. The new edition of the GIRM indicates that the faithful should stand “from the invitation Pray, brethren, until the end of mass. In the United States, however, this practice is supplanted by a directive for kneeling “ beginning after the singing of the Sanctus until after the Amen of the Eucharistic Prayer, and again after the Lamb of God, unless the local Bishop determines otherwise.
There then seems no reason to abandon kneeling, unless we are denying the presence of God, since this is how we have come to use as an act of veneraction and adoration

In this parish, as our old church was a multi-purpose building, we had the practice of standing. The Bishop gave us permission to continue that practice which actually allows us to be in conformity with the directive for the universal church.
this makes no sense, my parish had to go to a multipurpose building and we had no kneelers but that doesn’t negate the presence of Christ, when we could kneel we started to do it again

GIRM = General Instruction of the Roman Missal.

Sounds like an explanation that hides the real desire not to kneel in adoration and veneration of Christ.

So if my parish temporarily ends up without an altar, the priest has to use a pile of stones and we find some use of stones used as altars in the early Church then we should continue to try and emulate the early Church without development?

Maybe I am just jaded by people trying to destroy our beloved faith, little by little, but it sounds just like that heresy that tries to ignore our understanding of Christ and His Church and tries to remake the early Church again with a modern understanding.
What is that called?

Scylla

 

[whatevergirl]

One can still kneel if they choose–kneelers just provide comfort. I see many people kneel during mass, at the given times. I have done so myself. I don’t think this is remotely heresy…lol Kneelers or no kneelers–our faith is not based on whether or not we have kneelers. I don’t disagree that we were saddened to see no kneelers, when we came to Florida, and explored a few churches, but heresy is going against Church teaching–and kneeling is not a Church ‘teaching’ or dogma. But, everyone is entitled to their own opinion. What the priest posted on the site is fact…not his opinion.

 

[scylla]

I agree that there are facts in the post. I agree that facts were cited.

I am not saying that having no kneelers is a heresy,(that is not the point at all, I am sorry if I didn’t explain myself clearly)

I am saying the reasoning behind the explanation borders on the modern heresy of rejecting our understanding of Catholicism and looking at it with a modern understanding, reintroducing it as the original Church.

God Bless
Scylla

 

[whatevergirl]

I agree that there are facts in the post. I agree that facts were cited.

I am not saying that having no kneelers is a heresy,(that is not the point at all, I am sorry if I didn’t explain myself clearly)

I am saying the reasoning behind the explanation borders on the modern heresy of rejecting our understanding of Catholicism and looking at it with a modern understanding, reintroducing it as the original Church.

God Bless
Scylla

Hi Scylla;

Yeah, can’t say I disagree…I would much rather have kneelers. I don’t know why they didn’t just automatically install them, when the Chruch was built. Not like this church doesn’t have the money…wow, it most certainly does. I see the bulletin’s report of tithing every week, so that can’t be it. There is a poster on here who makes his own kneelers…if he ends up selling them, we may buy them from him!

 

[Aramis]

In the Byzantine Rite, kneeling is not allowed during the divine liturgy.

In the Roman Rite, it is allowed. But it isn’t a major issue within the GIRM.

 

[whatevergirl]

In the Byzantine Rite, kneeling is not allowed during the divine liturgy.

In the Roman Rite, it is allowed. But it isn’t a major issue within the GIRM.

Thanks for your note here. I am not familiar with the Byzantine Rite…how does it differ (generally speaking) from the Roman Rite?

 

[Walking_Home]

In the Byzantine Rite, kneeling is not allowed during the divine liturgy.

In the Roman Rite, it is allowed. But it isn’t a major issue within the GIRM.

---

You know Aramis ---- I have read many posts of how supposedly “bad” it was for the Eastern rites to be latinized and how “good” it is now to recover you own traditions – your own culture. But it seems not to fail – for an Eastern Catholic to jump in into certain threads and promote what can be viewed as the “de-culturation” of the Latin rite culture and traditions.

 

[MrS]

I don’t think anything ‘changed,’ seeing that kneeling did not become customary until the late 13th century. (during adoration and prepartion for the Eucharist) From what the priest posts about this–it appears as though kneeling was the change. (that became customary) I don’t disagree with your sentiments on it–we love this new parish, and if kneelers were present–it would be as near as perfect for us as can be.

neither did big and wonderful churches with pews, confessionals and statues, and etc.

neither did Bibles available to all untill the late 1400s

neither did the establishment of many religious orders

for that matter, neither did the Magna Carta.

so what

But during that time God was still with us in His Church. And the scriptures are filled with stories of those who lay prostrate in His Presence. Perhaps that is the posture we really should desire.

If…at His Name, every knee should bend and every head bow… how much more so in His Presence??

.

 

[childofmary1143]

neither did big and wonderful churches with pews, confessionals and statues, and etc.

neither did Bibles available to all untill the late 1400s

neither did the establishment of many religious orders

for that matter, neither did the Magna Carta.

so what

But during that time God was still with us in His Church. And the scriptures are filled with stories of those who lay prostrate in His Presence. Perhaps that is the posture we really should desire.

If…at His Name, every knee should bend and every head bow… how much more so in His Presence??

.

Thank you MrS for your very concise post here. Kneeling is an act of Adoration. We are REQUIRED to ADORE God. While taking out kneelers may not prevent people from kneeling it is sending a message that it isn’t required or desired. Why would a Catholic Parish/Diocese say it isn’t desired that kneeling be done during the most awesome moment, the Consecration of Bread and Wine into the Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity of Jesus Christ??

 

[Walking_Home]

Card. Arinze on the Liturgy – in Detroit
Sept. 30, 2006

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=112178

Cardinal Arinze was in Detroit this morning, discussing the liturgy. Was anyone from Catholic.com there? If so, how about throwing in some good discussion points. Out of a sell-out crowd of 750, I figure there must have been people from Catholic.com at this event.

I was glad to hear him talk about the need for gestures in our worship, in particular kneeling and bowing. He also discussed sitting, processing, standing,** but focused heavily on kneeling and genuflection. **

The GIRM calls for all of these things and **he really hit the point home by reminding us that it is our Creator that we stand before. We ought to be willing to crawl to Him, or to prostrate ourselves before Him. **We should not be afraid to kneel or genuflect before the tabernacle, when we see the light.

 

[Aramis]

Thanks for your note here. I am not familiar with the Byzantine Rite…how does it differ (generally speaking) from the Roman Rite?

In a nutshell:
The Byzantine Rite, consisting of 8 of the Eastern Catholic Churches, and of the Eastern Orthodox, is Generally:

1. Using the Divine Liturgy according to St. John Chrysostom.
   1.1) The liturgy is almost always sung, save for one prayer. The singing is usually active participation of the laity.
   1.2) The liturgy is ad orientam with an Iconostas (wall of icons) separating the altar from the nave. (Think a communion rail, but floor to ceiling, and covered with holy images)
   1.3) Traditionally, the people stand throughout
   1.3.1) profound bows are made at various points where the Latins traditionally kneel.
   1.3.2) Full prostration is the normative for adoration in Byzantine praxis; kneeling is a sign of remorse and horror, not adoration.
   1.4) Ancient Liturgy: St. John’s liturgy is over a thousand years old; local adaptations vary
2. Derived from the Constantinoplian tradition
   2.1) difference in vestments
   2.2) difference in holy days
   2.3) difference in theology around the dogmas.
3. at least 8 separate sets of Catholic Bishops, each separate, united under the Pope. The Largest is the Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church, under Cardinal Hussar. Each differs in tradition, but all share the same liturgies.
   3.1) over 20 distinct Orthodox churches in the Eastern Orthodox Communion
   3.2) A tradition of National churches, both Catholic and Orthodox
4. Infants fully initated: Baptism, Confirmation, and First Communion typically 40 days after birth.
5. Different secondary services
   5.1) Adoration of the Blessed Sacrament is uncommon, and impractical. The Byzantine equivalent in tradition is usually restricted to the week after Easter, and is prostration before the tabernacle, revealed through the iconostas’s open royal doors.
   5.2) Vespers, Matins, and Compline often done as public worship, not just as part of the office of the Hours; Canon Law requires them of the Eastern Churches before Sunday Divine Worship.
   5.3) Differences in the wording of the common prayer, except the Our Father.
   5.4) Sign of the Cross made right to left.
   5.5) Veneration of Icons; lack of statuary.

It is important to note that the Byzantine liturgy is a valid catholic liturgy within the bounds of the Byzantine Rite Catholic Churches. If you want to learn more, it would best be taken to the Eastern Catholic Forum.

The Roman Church also exists in many places where kneeling is not customary for adoration, but for other, less liturgically appropriate states of mind. Hence, the GIRM does not specify kneeling as required, but allows it where not counter indicated. All acts of divine worship within the Catholic Church may be appropriately done by standing with all due respect. But in All acts of Divine Worship via the Holy Sacrifice, the people of God are to conform to the local Catholic tradition. (That is buried in Canon Law. I’m not digging for citations right now.)

Kneeling during the consecration is normative to the US expression of the Roman Rite, but other traditions are “laudably retained”; there are two: kneeling throughout the eucharistic prayer, and standing throughout.

In the last paragraph of USCCB GIRM 43, the admonition is for the laity to follow the directives of the deacon, priest, or missal in use.

If the priest or the deacon says to stand, the GIRM backs him up in that case.