Why doesn't my parish have kneelers?

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Kneeling is normative for the Consecration THROUGHOUT the Roman Rite, without exception.

It’s not normative universally in the Roman Rite for the entire Canon, but it IS for the Consecration, period.

And Walking-Home has a point. Easterners sometimes tend to invade Latin Rite threads and start lecturing us on how things are more or less okay because that’s the way they do it.
 
I guess the answer our priest gave isn’t sufficient (for you)…but, if the universal Church does not mandate kneelers…why should we move to another parish? Most parishes we have seen here in Florida don’t have kneelers. I do miss a church like this, but I am glad to see an explanation of it by our parish priest.
It is true that kneelers are not mandated, but kneeling is stipulated at certain points within the mass. It appears the people responsible for planning your parish were planning all along to discourage compliance with the GIRM, otherwise they would not have presumed they would be able to get the bishop to give an appearance of acceptability to allowing perpetually what should have been a wavier to apply only during the time the main sanctuary was being built. That they made such a presumption is evident in that the new pews were not ordered with kneelers attached.
 
Some responses are very encouraging, however. Based on the guidelines set down in The General Instruction on the Roman Missal, diverse initiatives have been undertaken to ensure that sacred spaces in already existent Churches and those under construction be true places of prayer and adoration, where art and iconography become instruments to serve liturgical needs. **For example, in some Churches, kneelers have returned along with the practice of the faithful kneeling during the Eucharistic Prayer. **.
This is fascinating! I didn’t know the kneelers ever went away, or that the GIRM officially mandates standing. I’ve never not knelt, or been to a church where the common practice wasn’t kneeling, during the eucharistic prayer, before and after going up to receive, etc.

I guess I’m asking, when did all this happen!? :confused:

Now I have visited a Maronite church a couple of times and I know the practice there is to stand, to commemorate the resurrection. It was really hard though, walking back to my seat after communion…My body just instinctively wanted to go down. It was weird I had to catch myself. Anyhow, I digress.
 
Thank you MrS for your very concise post here. Kneeling is an act of Adoration. We are REQUIRED to ADORE God. While taking out kneelers may not prevent people from kneeling it is sending a message that it isn’t required or desired. Why would a Catholic Parish/Diocese say it isn’t desired that kneeling be done during the most awesome moment, the Consecration of Bread and Wine into the Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity of Jesus Christ??
So the parish/Diocese we are in, is morally wrong–and sinful by not having kneelers?😦 I don’t disagree with your sentiments, but I just wonder why many parishes in this Diocese don’t have kneelers. Some do…but many don’t.
 
It is true that kneelers are not mandated, but kneeling is stipulated at certain points within the mass. It appears the people responsible for planning your parish were planning all along to discourage compliance with the GIRM, otherwise they would not have presumed they would be able to get the bishop to give an appearance of acceptability to allowing perpetually what should have been a wavier to apply only during the time the main sanctuary was being built. That they made such a presumption is evident in that the new pews were not ordered with kneelers attached.
Yeah, possibly. It’s not just our parish, though…that’s the thing. I have been to three churches in this Diocese and all three had no kneelers. So, not sure why that is, but just wanted to point out, that it isn’t just the parish we are going to join that doesn’t have kneelers.:o
 
The church does not have kneelers because some modernists are extrmeley short sighted.

Kneeling is mandatory for the Eucharistic Prayer–it is the proper rubric.

We had standing for the consecration for 13 years in my diocese. A lot of garbage reasons were given like we are a resurrection people and no longer penitents and on and on. Well we need to all do penance in our lives! Anyway, it got so that about 1/3 of the congregations were standing and 2/3 kneeling and finally the bishop rescinded the ‘invitation’ to stand which was a disobedience in the first place. These innovations have had devastating consequences throughout the Church and the Mass is no one’s private property to change.

We almost did not have kneelers in our ugly round church but luckily some big money people wanted them. Had we not put them in, I would kneel on the hard floor for kneeling is indeed the posture of adoration and worship. I adore my Lord.

It is said the devil has no knees…

Sigh. Sad to hear this junk, this disobedience, is still going on. If an extraordinary form of the Mass becomes available maybe you can go to a reverent Mass with adherence to rubrics.

Ave Maria!
 
The church does not have kneelers because some modernists are extrmeley short sighted.

Kneeling is mandatory for the Eucharistic Prayer–it is the proper rubric.

We had standing for the consecration for 13 years in my diocese. A lot of garbage reasons were given like we are a resurrection people and no longer penitents and on and on. Well we need to all do penance in our lives! Anyway, it got so that about 1/3 of the congregations were standing and 2/3 kneeling and finally the bishop rescinded the ‘invitation’ to stand which was a disobedience in the first place. These innovations have had devastating consequences throughout the Church and the Mass is no one’s private property to change.

We almost did not have kneelers in our ugly round church but luckily some big money people wanted them. Had we not put them in, I would kneel on the hard floor for kneeling is indeed the posture of adoration and worship. I adore my Lord.

It is said the devil has no knees…

Sigh. Sad to hear this junk, this disobedience, is still going on. If an extraordinary form of the Mass becomes available maybe you can go to a reverent Mass with adherence to rubrics.

Ave Maria!
I don’t think that this Diocese would willfully throw caution to the wind when it comes to reverence during the mass…and not ‘care’ about what is proper and reverent. (and holy) My family and I adore our Lord, as well…please be careful to not make it sound because we attend a church that doesn’t have kneelers, that somehow we are less reverent…and again, just because a church doesn’t have kneelers doesn’t mean that we can’t kneel–I agree with you there!👍 There are many who do and we have as well.
 
I don’t think that this Diocese would willfully throw caution to the wind when it comes to reverence during the mass…and not ‘care’ about what is proper and reverent. (and holy)
Two more things here.
  1. I know my comments (and I’ll speak for Ave Maria! as well) and not directed at you personally as far as the things that don’t seem right in your parish or diocese, as you really can’t help what your geographic parish is and it sounds like things were this way when you got there.
  2. However, it seems your bishop (who does have the final authority on things like church design in his diocese) quite deliberately dropped the ball on this matter, and from your description not just once. This isn’t just throwing caution to the wind, but undermining the proper behavior in a premeditated manner and trying to put a good spin on it…
 
In a nutshell:
The Byzantine Rite, consisting of 8 of the Eastern Catholic Churches, and of the Eastern Orthodox, is Generally:
  1. Using the Divine Liturgy according to St. John Chrysostom.
    1.1) The liturgy is almost always sung, save for one prayer. The singing is usually active participation of the laity.
    1.2) The liturgy is ad orientam with an Iconostas (wall of icons) separating the altar from the nave. (Think a communion rail, but floor to ceiling, and covered with holy images)
    1.3) Traditionally, the people stand throughout
    1.3.1) profound bows are made at various points where the Latins traditionally kneel.
    1.3.2) Full prostration is the normative for adoration in Byzantine praxis; kneeling is a sign of remorse and horror, not adoration.
    1.4) Ancient Liturgy: St. John’s liturgy is over a thousand years old; local adaptations vary
  2. Derived from the Constantinoplian tradition
    2.1) difference in vestments
    2.2) difference in holy days
    2.3) difference in theology around the dogmas.
  3. at least 8 separate sets of Catholic Bishops, each separate, united under the Pope. The Largest is the Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church, under Cardinal Hussar. Each differs in tradition, but all share the same liturgies.
    3.1) over 20 distinct Orthodox churches in the Eastern Orthodox Communion
    3.2) A tradition of National churches, both Catholic and Orthodox
  4. Infants fully initated: Baptism, Confirmation, and First Communion typically 40 days after birth.
  5. Different secondary services
    5.1) Adoration of the Blessed Sacrament is uncommon, and impractical. The Byzantine equivalent in tradition is usually restricted to the week after Easter, and is prostration before the tabernacle, revealed through the iconostas’s open royal doors.
    5.2) Vespers, Matins, and Compline often done as public worship, not just as part of the office of the Hours; Canon Law requires them of the Eastern Churches before Sunday Divine Worship.
    5.3) Differences in the wording of the common prayer, except the Our Father.
    5.4) Sign of the Cross made right to left.
    5.5) Veneration of Icons; lack of statuary.
It is important to note that the Byzantine liturgy is a valid catholic liturgy within the bounds of the Byzantine Rite Catholic Churches. If you want to learn more, it would best be taken to the Eastern Catholic Forum.

The Roman Church also exists in many places where kneeling is not customary for adoration, but for other, less liturgically appropriate states of mind. Hence, the GIRM does not specify kneeling as required, but allows it where not counter indicated. All acts of divine worship within the Catholic Church may be appropriately done by standing with all due respect. But in All acts of Divine Worship via the Holy Sacrifice, the people of God are to conform to the local Catholic tradition. (That is buried in Canon Law. I’m not digging for citations right now.)

Kneeling during the consecration is normative to the US expression of the Roman Rite, but other traditions are “laudably retained”; there are two: kneeling throughout the eucharistic prayer, and standing throughout.

In the last paragraph of USCCB GIRM 43, the admonition is for the laity to follow the directives of the deacon, priest, or missal in use.

If the priest or the deacon says to stand, the GIRM backs him up in that case.
You know what is interesting about this? We actually ‘profoundly bow’ at different times during the Consecration, during mass. Hmm…Thanks for posting this for me!
 
Two more things here.
  1. I know my comments (and I’ll speak for Ave Maria! as well) and not directed at you personally as far as the things that don’t seem right in your parish or diocese, as you really can’t help what your geographic parish is and it sounds like things were this way when you got there.
  2. However, it seems your bishop (who does have the final authority on things like church design in his diocese) quite deliberately dropped the ball on this matter, and from your description not just once. This isn’t just throwing caution to the wind, but undermining the proper behavior in a premeditated manner and trying to put a good spin on it…
Hi Ray;

So…what he posted on the parish’s website is false, and just spun–there is no fact to it?:confused:
 
So the parish/Diocese we are in, is morally wrong–and sinful by not having kneelers?😦 I don’t disagree with your sentiments, but I just wonder why many parishes in this Diocese don’t have kneelers. Some do…but many don’t.
I am not saying that they are morally wrong and/or sinful. That is something between them and God. The reason why a lot of parishes throughout the USA and even here in Canada is that there is a new belief called “Resurrected People” and that they remove the kneelers because they feel that Standing is a sign of respect (which it is) and that we should **just ** respect God. I don’t know how they feel about worshiping him though?🤷
 
I am not saying that they are morally wrong and/or sinful. That is something between them and God. The reason why a lot of parishes throughout the USA and even here in Canada is that there is a new belief called “Resurrected People” and that they remove the kneelers because they feel that Standing is a sign of respect (which it is) and that we should **just ** respect God. I don’t know how they feel about worshiping him though?🤷
It is a very holy and spirit filled parish. I wouldn’t be drawn to join a church that was otherwise. Let’s not judge a parish (or its parishioners), because it has no kneelers.😦

I didn’t think this thread would turn into judgement of where people’s hearts are at, during mass.
 
Basically kneeling is a pagan custom related to the worship of the king as a god. Judaism and Christianity are covenant religions. The worshipper relates to God via a contract (covenant). How often have you knelt before a person with whom you have a contract? I don’t kneel before my employer or my wife or my mortgage lender. I don’t expect any of them to kneel before me. I don’t need to kneel before God. That’s not how I relate to him.

Matthew
 
Hi Ray;

So…what he posted on the parish’s website is false, and just spun–there is no fact to it?:confused:
It is more that it is incomplete. The Bishop gets to have final say on Church architecture and furnishings and may well have encouraged Churches to not have kneelers. The GIRM is the governing document for posture, however. The current GIRM says to kneel for the consecration. The only way to deviate from that is to get permission from the CDW. The USCCB did just that when they asked for and received permission for the people in the US to remain kneeling until after the great Amen and to return to kneeling (on a diocese-by-diocese basis) after the Agnus Dei. If the intent of the website is to provide the source for why people don’t kneel, the person should have included the specifics of the permission granted from the Vatican, through the CDW. He did not and I have never heard of any diocese in the US being given that permission.

Sorry, sounds like smoke and mirrors.
 
It is more that it is incomplete. The Bishop gets to have final say on Church architecture and furnishings and may well have encouraged Churches to not have kneelers. The GIRM is the governing document for posture, however. The current GIRM says to kneel for the consecration. The only way to deviate from that is to get permission from the CDW. The USCCB did just that when they asked for and received permission for the people in the US to remain kneeling until after the great Amen and to return to kneeling (on a diocese-by-diocese basis) after the Agnus Dei. If the intent of the website is to provide the source for why people don’t kneel, the person should have included the specifics of the permission granted from the Vatican, through the CDW. He did not and I have never heard of any diocese in the US being given that permission.

Sorry, sounds like smoke and mirrors.
Hi Corki;

The website is the parish website, with a question and answer section, which states that one of the more popular questions has been…why the church has no kneelers? It is definitely something that I doubt I’ll ever grow accustomed to…I feel bad for our parish priest to a degree…he didn’t design the parish.:o But, he has to be the one to field the complaints…:o

Thanks for your response.
 
Basically kneeling is a pagan custom related to the worship of the king as a god. Judaism and Christianity are covenant religions. The worshipper relates to God via a contract (covenant). How often have you knelt before a person with whom you have a contract? I don’t kneel before my employer or my wife or my mortgage lender. I don’t expect any of them to kneel before me. I don’t need to kneel before God. That’s not how I relate to him.

Matthew
Well thats a horrendous misunderstanding, no matter what rite you’re in.

In the Roman Rite, we kneel, because it is the traditional posture in the western world of adoration and worship. We WORSHIP GOD. God IS a King. Jesus is GOD and our KING. Just as you said in your first sentence, KNEELING = WORSHIP. Then, in the last sentence, you said you don’t relate to God this way. The ONLY logical explanation for that is that you don’t worship God.

In the Eastern Rites, they stand because that is THEIR traditional posture of showing respect. We kneel in the West for pretty much the same reasons they stand in the East; there are differences in posture because there are different cultural customs and behavior.

NOWHERE in any of these cusoms is this “its a Contract, so we are all equal” sort of thing that you espouse. Your writing made it seem as if you view yourself to be an equal partener with God in this covenant. Nothing could be further from the truth. We are weak and undeserving, and we show our humility before the awesomeness and majesty that is God. And we do so in the posture that has triditionally shown this attitude in our cultures. In the West, this is kneeling; in the East, this is standing.

Two different exressions of the same Truth. A Truth which you, apparently, have completely missed.
 
Basically kneeling is a pagan custom related to the worship of the king as a god. Judaism and Christianity are covenant religions. The worshipper relates to God via a contract (covenant). How often have you knelt before a person with whom you have a contract? I don’t kneel before my employer or my wife or my mortgage lender. I don’t expect any of them to kneel before me. I don’t need to kneel before God. That’s not how I relate to him.

Matthew

Boy — you’ve been fed a load of bunk.
 
Basically kneeling is a pagan custom related to the worship of the king as a god. Judaism and Christianity are covenant religions. The worshipper relates to God via a contract (covenant). How often have you knelt before a person with whom you have a contract? I don’t kneel before my employer or my wife or my mortgage lender. I don’t expect any of them to kneel before me. I don’t need to kneel before God. That’s not how I relate to him.

Matthew
Haha, whoa - did you just compared God’s sacrifice and offer of salvation to a mortgage lender? :rolleyes:

Anyway, the question becomes: What did they expect people to do when they knelt down for the consecration? Just be uncomfortable? What about the elderly? Is it supposed to be some sort of medieval penance?
 
Here is the answer to the question of the O.P. This answer will provide the answer to many questions that confused Catholics have today:

Question: Why are some Churches removing the kneelers?

Answer: Because the wolves are in charge of the Church today, and they are doing everything they can get away with to destroy the faith and lead souls into a new religion devoid of anything transcendent or supernatural. They are attempting to constuct a Church of Man to replace the Church of God. These are the wolves in sheeps clothing that we have been warned about. The prelates who are not wolves may as well be since they remain silent, and do nothing to pretect the faith or the faithful. These later are the “dumb dogs” that will not bark. So, we have a hierarchy that consists of wolves in sheeps clothing and dumb dags. Now we know why the Church is in the condition it is.

There’s the answer for those who are willing to hear it.
 
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