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Tammy111
Guest
The Bible doesn’t record everything that is contained in the church, Catholic or Protestant. Sacred tradition shows that the early Fathers and the Church as such believed that Mary was sinless.
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Goth_Catholic
Guest
Chaire and Chiro are different words, the verb and it’s conjugation, although related, have slightly different meanings and are therefore different words. If I said “Tener una cama” it doesn’t mean the same as “Tengo una cama”.But you don’t know Greek verb conjugation and tensing; that’s why you insisted that Chīre, and Chīrō were different words, correct?
That’s not the issue.
The issue, for me, is that you said that, “rejoice is NOT part of the original Greek passage.”
Chīrō is variously translated in the NT as, rejoice, greetings, glad, hail.
Rejoice is no more part of Luke 1:28 then “I am” is to “it is”
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sandusky
Guest
Again, chīre, is the present, active, imperative, second person singular form of chīrō.
Thinking about that—both Jn 19:3, and Lk 1:28 are imperatives, or commands—are the Lord and Mary being commanded to hail something, or someone? And if so, what, who?
Or, are they being commanded to rejoice?
Which makes most sense?
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Goth_Catholic
Guest
Hmm, is Judas also commanding Jesus to rejoice in Matthew 26:49,
kai eutheōs proselthōn tō iēsou eipen chaire rabbi kai katephilēsen auton
or does it make more sense to say that despite the form, Chaire was used as a greeting, rather then as a command.
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brandymmiller
Guest
The Gospel of Luke was originally written in greek, penned by Luke the Physician who worked closely with and traveled with Paul. Luke 1:28 “And coming to her, he said, 'Hail, full of grace! The Lord is with you.”
Full of grace is actually a fairly poor translation, a pale comparison to what was actually stated. The greek word used in the greeting was kecharitomene. Ke is a prefix which denotes something that happened in the past and the result is being viewed presently. Charitoo is a verb meaning to grace. So by this we have that Mary was given her grace in the past and still carries it with her. Mene is a suffix, indicating that Mary was the passive recipient of this grace from someone else. She was not the giver of the grace, but the recipient.
The angel Gabriel greeted her using kecharitomene instead of her name, thus he was addressing her as this. In doing so, he was calling her by her primary attribute, much as I might say to someone, “Hello, beautiful!”. Her primary attribute was Grace. Notice that in the Bible God always renames people when He calls them to a new life. He renamed Abram and Sarai to Abraham and Sarah. He renamed Jacob to Israel. He renamed Symon to Peter. He renamed Mary to Kecharitomene - and she identified herself as being The Immaculate Conception during an apparition to one of the saints.
Furthermore, Luke was not one of the original 12 apostles writing about this from first hand experience. He was a disciple of Paul’s, and had been taught by Paul who in turn had been taught by the apostles. Therefore, we can see in this way that the teaching of the Immaculate Conception was a widespread and accepted teaching even so early as this.
The matter wasn’t declared an official dogma until later, not because it hadn’t always been a teaching of the Church, but because there were those who began to dispute its accuracy. That she was born without sin didn’t stop her from being able to chose sin - after all, Eve was created without sin but still chose to sin - but because she was also full of grace she was kept free from sin so that she could be worthy of being Christ’s mother.
Think about this for a moment: God gave very specific instructions on the creation of the ark of the covenant. He had specific materials He wanted used, only the finest and the best of the best. This ark was to be a pure and holy vessel, containing three things: the stone tablets holding the law, the staff of Moses’ authority, and the Manna which was the Bread in the desert. Even Moses could not enter the Holy of Holies where the Lord came to dwell.
If He took such care with holy objects, why wouldn’t He have taken even more care to ensure that He created a woman fitting for the Word Incarnate, the King of Kings who carries the Rod of Iron, and the Bread of Life to live in for 9 months? The greek word episkiazo, meaning overshadow, is used only twice in the entire Bible - once in describing how the Lord came to live in the Ark of the Covenant and once again when it talks about the Holy Spirit working within Mary to conceive Christ. This makes Mary the Ark of the New Covenant.
Romans 6:6 “We know that our old self was crucified with Him so that our sinful body might be done away with, that we might no longer be in slavery to sin.”
When we are baptized, we die to our old selves.
Romans 12: 4-5 “For as in one body we have many parts, and all the parts do not have the same function, so we, though many are one body in Christ and individually parts of one another.”
We are reborn as cells in the Body of Christ. Where was this body formed?
Luke 1: 30-31 "Then the angel said to her, “Do not be afraid, Mary, for you have found favor with God. Behold, you will conceive in your womb and bear a son, and you shall name him Jesus.”
Therefore, as members of the Body of Christ we gain Mary as our mother.
Furthermore, Paul shows us that Mary was Immaculate when he speaks about our new mother.
Galatians 4: 31 “Therefore, brothers, we are children not of the slave woman but of the freeborn woman.”
Mary is the freeborn woman to whom we are born.
The slavery he was speaking of was the slavery of sin.
Galatians 4:8 “At a time when you did not know God, you became slaves to things that by nature are not gods; but now you have come to know God, or rather to be known by God, and how can you turn back again to the weak and destitute elemental powers? Do you want to be slaves to them all over again?”
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sandusky
Guest
Can’t the imperative rejoice! be a greeting?
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Goth_Catholic
Guest
why translate Luke 1:28 differently from John 19:3, Matthew 26:49, Mark 15:18, etc?
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sandusky
Guest
Why translate those four as “hail,” when other imperative uses of the verb are rendered rejoice?
For example:**Matthew 5:12
“HAIL and be glad, for your reward in heaven is great; for in the same way they persecuted the prophets who were before you.
Lk 10:20
“Nevertheless do not HAIL in this, that the spirits are subject to you, but HAIL that your names are recorded in heaven.”**
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Goth_Catholic
Guest
matthew 5:12
chairete kai agalliasthe oti o misthos umōn polus en tois ouranois outōs gar ediōxan tous prophētas tous pro umōn
luke 10:20
plēn en toutō mē chairete oti ta pneumata umin upotassetai chairete de oti ta onomata umōn engegraptai en tois ouranois
Oviously different tenses are used to denote rejoice from hail
chairete kai agalliasthe oti o misthos umōn polus en tois ouranois outōs gar ediōxan tous prophētas tous pro umōn
luke 10:20
plēn en toutō mē chairete oti ta pneumata umin upotassetai chairete de oti ta onomata umōn engegraptai en tois ouranois
Oviously different tenses are used to denote rejoice from hail
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sandusky
Guest
Obviously? This is Greek; they are identical tenses.
Chīre, is the present, active, imperative, second person singular form of chīrō.
Chīrete is the present, active, imperative, second person plural form of chīrō.
The only difference is chīre is singular, chīrete is plural.
Both are imperatives, and, as we were taught in English class, the subject of each
is “you,” understood.
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Goth_Catholic
Guest
I would tell that to Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John, who use Chaire as the greeting, and Chairete as the command. Probably because that was the way Greek speakers used them in the first century.
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sandusky
Guest
Actually, with respect to “hail” being used in the Gospels in connection with the Lord, it’s because of His titles, “rabbi,” and “king of the Jews.”
Kecharitōmene is not a title.
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Goth_Catholic
Guest
It’s a statis
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sandusky
Guest
What’s a “statis?” Define the word, please.
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LilyM
Guest
status - state of being. Mary was in a state of grace.
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Joshua2006
Guest
The Bible says
Romans 3:23
** For there is no difference; 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,** 24 being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus,
‘Grace’ means ‘unmerited favor’.
God can ‘favor’ one in ‘faith’.
Such is reflected in.
Ephesians 2:8
For by **grace ** you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God,
Or did God change His mind?
I don’t think so.
Malachi 3:6 “ ** For I am the LORD, I do not change; **
Therefore you are not consumed, O sons of Jacob.
7 Yet from the days of your fathers
You have gone away from My ordinances
And have not kept them.
Return to Me, and I will return to you,”
Says the LORD of hosts.
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mlchance
Guest
Because grammatically speaking an imperative issues a command, not renders a greeting. This is true regardless of language. Words of greeting are vocative, which is a different form.
You’re not going to get anywhere arguing that the imperative and the vocative are interchangeable.
– Mark L. Chance.
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jofa
Guest
Wow - the silence is deafening from our non-Catholic friend on the issue of the Canon of Scripture. Like a liberal, he dodges the issues he can’t respond to with any intelligence, or just changes the subject completely! **"Can’t answer that one so I’ll change the attack to use of the word ‘hail’ ". **Must have some lib’ blood in his veins! 
jofa
jofa
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Goth_Catholic
Guest
As much as I hate to admit it, he brought up a good pointWow - the silence is deafening from our non-Catholic friend on the issue of the Canon of Scripture. Like a liberal, he dodges the issues he can’t respond to with any intelligence, or just changes the subject completely! **"Can’t answer that one so I’ll change the attack to use of the word ‘hail’ ". **Must have some lib’ blood in his veins!
jofa
…at first anyway. He hung himself in the end. Regardless, for someone who claims he’s an Ex-Catholic by “the grace of God” I’m not surprised.
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Mach1Man
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