Why doesn't the Bible say that Mary was sinless?

[jmcrae]

Jesus did believe that the OT Scriptures were the Word of God which would include all the books of the prophets of the OT.

And the Deuterocanon, as well.

 

[jmcrae]

I’m just going by what I find on google…

What were you looking for? (The servant passage that He read out at the synagogue in Nazareth was from Isaiah.)

 

[Goth_Catholic]

What were you looking for? (The servant passage that He read out at the synagogue in Nazareth was from Isaiah.)

I typed in Jesus quote’s Jeremiah. Unforchently Obama’s paster said something along the lines of “Dont quote Jeremiah Wright, quote Jesus” which killed my search because there are 50 million links for that

 

[sandusky]

Goth_Catholic:

And Mary is the antithesis of Eve, like us in every way except without sin.

Mary as the new Eve— part of the desired co-redemptrix dogma.

Man as his co-redeemer—that’s beautiful.

 

[sandusky]

jmcrae:

St. Paul was writing for a particular audience, all of whom had sinned. He wasn’t writing to or about little children, or to or about Mother Mary, or to or about any mentally-challenged persons. When he said “all have sinned” he intended that the reader/listener should understand that he himself has sinned. St. Paul was not writing about Mary at all in that passage.

We all understand (and they understood back then) that little children and mentally challenged persons are without sin, and St. Paul was not intending to contradict that understanding in any way. Nor was he trying to make any kind of an attack on Mother Mary’s claim to sinlessness.

Source please?

 

[Goth_Catholic]

Mary as the new Eve— part of the desired co-redemptrix dogma.

Man as his co-redeemer—that’s beautiful.

Kyrie eleison

1 kings 2: 20

 

[sandusky]

1 kings 2: 20

Read to v25.

 

[Goth_Catholic]

Read to v25.

Solomon was a sinner

 

[jmcrae]

Mary as the new Eve— part of the desired co-redemptrix dogma.

Man as his co-redeemer—that’s beautiful.

Mary has been contrasted with Eve ever since theologians started talking about her.
St. Justin Martyr:

For Eve, who was a virgin and undefiled, having conceived the word of the serpent, brought forth disobedience and death. But the Virgin Mary received faith and joy, when the angel Gabriel announced the good tidings to her that the Spirit of the Lord would come upon her, and the power of the Highest would overshadow her: wherefore also the Holy Thing begotten of her is the Son of God; and she replied, ‘Be it unto me according to your word.’ " Luke 1:38 And by her has He been born, to whom we have proved so many Scriptures refer, and by whom God destroys both the serpent and those angels and men who are like him; but works deliverance from death to those who repent of their wickedness and believe upon Him.

 

[sandusky]

Solomon was a sinner

And a text without a context is a pretext.

 

[sandusky]

Mary has been contrasted with Eve ever since theologians started talking about her.

Don’t forget Iraneaus, and Tertullian and the others.

jmcrae:

St. Paul was writing for a particular audience, all of whom had sinned. He wasn’t writing to or about little children, or to or about Mother Mary, or to or about any mentally-challenged persons. When he said “all have sinned” he intended that the reader/listener should understand that he himself has sinned. St. Paul was not writing about Mary at all in that passage.

We all understand (and they understood back then) that little children and mentally challenged persons are without sin, and St. Paul was not intending to contradict that understanding in any way. Nor was he trying to make any kind of an attack on Mother Mary’s claim to sinlessness.

I’m still waiting for a source(s), please?

 

[AAC08]

Who among the First Century Christians have held on to the idea that Mary is Co-Redemptrix? This is new.

I know that your idea of Mary being Co-Mediatrix is understanding the “Co-” as “WITH” and not “equal”, and there lies the problem. Saying that there is someone “WITH” Jesus as Mediator is very much incongruent with the following verses:

Galatians 3:20A mediator, however, does not represent just one party; but God is one.

1 Timothy 2:5 For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,

There are many intercessors on earth but only ONE intercessor in heaven. Jesus Christ the LIVING ONE. Dead people do not intercede for living people. That’s Bible.

 

[Goth_Catholic]

There are many intercessors on earth but only ONE intercessor in heaven. Jesus Christ the LIVING ONE. Dead people do not intercede for living people. That’s Bible.

And God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.

And since Mary is not an intercessor between men and God, but rather between men and Jesus it doesn’t violate Timothy (which could have well have been written while Mary was still alive anyway)

 

[jmcrae]

Don’t forget Iraneaus, and Tertullian and the others.

I’m still waiting for a source(s), please?

Mark 10:13-16

 

[Church_Militant]

Who among the First Century Christians have held on to the idea that Mary is Co-Redemptrix? This is new.

I know that your idea of Mary being Co-Mediatrix is understanding the “Co-” as “WITH” and not “equal”, and there lies the problem. Saying that there is someone “WITH” Jesus as Mediator is very much incongruent with the following verses:

Galatians 3:20A mediator, however, does not represent just one party; but God is one.

1 Timothy 2:5 For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,

There are many intercessors on earth but only ONE intercessor in heaven. Jesus Christ the LIVING ONE. Dead people do not intercede for living people. That’s Bible.

Here again you show an exposure to biased and inaccurate opinions as to what the Catholic Church teaches.

There is no Catholic teaching that says Mary is Co-redemptrix, and it is unlikely to ever become a dogma of our most holy faith. Wherever you got that you need to go back and tell them to stick to disagreeing with actual Catholic doctrines.

The same is true for the Mediatrix of all graces, however I have read the statements about it and if you did then you wouldn’t be opposing it because you’d see that properly understood, it in no way conflicts with scripture.

Still, again, there is no real likelihood that it will ever become dogma. Not that I have seen anyway, and I keep an eye on these things. Just because we Catholics discuss something does not mean that it is likely to become and dogma of our faith.

 

[Church_Militant]

There are many intercessors on earth but only ONE intercessor in heaven. Jesus Christ the LIVING ONE. Dead people do not intercede for living people. That’s Bible.

BTW, this remark is completely wrong according to the New Testament.
The Intercession & Communion of Saints

 

[po18guy]

Why didn’t God say in His Word that Mary is sinless?

Surely if Mary was sinless God would have made sure that this fact was recorded in His Word.

First of all is the fact that Christ founded a church. The church preceded the bible. The church produced the bible. The bible is incomplete, and says so in several places (Luke 3:18, John 20:30, John 21:25, etc.). The bible was NEVER meant to be employed without the benefit of the Traditions of Christ that He Himself instituted, or that He empowered the Apostles to institute. Many Protestants are confused over these exact issues, since they have abandoned the Sacred Traditions which preceded the bible.

Now, “full of grace” means empty of non-grace, right? Grace is God-given purity. Non-grace would be sin. The Angel Gabriel, Who appeared to precious few in scripture, greeted Mary with “Hail, full of grace”. We must ponder that greeting, just as Mary did. Since full of grace = empty of sin, we believe that she is sinless.

The Ark of the Covenant, which carried the stone tablets with God’s own writing on them, was held sacred and pure, undefiled. Any man touching it was struck dead, as is recorded in the bible. Mary is viewed as the ark of the New Covenant, Which is Christ. She is the “theotokos” (Greek for God-bearer). This is part of the reason she is held in high esteem by the Catholic Church, since both God and the Angel Gabriel hold her in high esteem. Since she is the Ark of the New Covenant, she is also a perpetual virgin, as God did not allow man to touch either Ark.

Christ’s peace.

 

[po18guy]

Dead people do not intercede for living people. That’s Bible.

Dude, I think you missed this:

Matthew 22:32 ‘I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob’ He is not the God of the dead but of the living."

Mark 12:27 “He is not the God of the dead, but of the living. You are badly mistaken!”

Luke 20:38 “He is not the God of the dead, but of the living, for to him all are alive.”

Word (made flesh).

 

[JustaServant]

There are many intercessors on earth but only ONE intercessor in heaven. Jesus Christ the LIVING ONE. Dead people do not intercede for living people. That’s Bible.

God’s Word commands us to pray for one another:

1 Timothy 2:1-4 “First of all, then, I urge that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all men, for kings and all who are in high positions, that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life, godly and respectful in every way. This is good, and it is acceptable in the sight of our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth”

There is nothing in Scripture that would indicate that not even death can separate us from Christ:

Rom. 8:38-39 “Neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers, nor height, nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord"
Is not the Church the Body of Christ?

Rev 6:9 When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the witness they had borne; 10 they cried out with a loud voice, “O Sovereign Lord, holy and true, how long before thou wilt judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell upon the earth?” 11 Then they were each given a white robe and told to rest a little longer, until the number of their fellow servants and their brethren should be complete, who were to be killed as they themselves had been.

Mt 18:10 "See that you do not despise one of these little ones; for I tell you that in heaven their angels always behold the face of my Father who is in heaven.

Lu 15:7 I tell you that in the same way there will be more rejoicing in heaven over one sinner who repents (how did they know the sinner repented?) than over ninety-nine righteous persons who do not need to repent.

Tobit 12:14 So now God sent me to heal you and your daughter-in-law Sarah. 15 I am Raphael, one of the seven holy angels who present the prayers of the saints and enter into the presence of the glory of the Holy One."

2Maccabees 15: 11 He (Judas Maccabee) armed each of them not so much with confidence in shields and spears as with the inspiration of brave words, and he cheered them all by relating a dream, a sort of vision, which was worthy of belief. 12 What he saw was this: Onias, who had been high priest, a noble and good man, of modest bearing and gentle manner, one who spoke fittingly and had been trained from childhood in all that belongs to excellence, was praying with outstretched hands for the whole body of the Jews. 13 Then likewise a man appeared, distinguished by his gray hair and dignity, and of marvelous majesty and authority. 14 And Onias spoke, saying, “This is a man who loves the brethren and prays much for the people and the holy city, Jeremiah, the prophet of God.” 15 Jeremiah stretched out his right hand and gave to Judas a golden sword, and as he gave it he addressed him thus: 16 “Take this holy sword, a gift from God, with which you will strike down your adversaries.”

Rev 5:8 And when he had taken the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each holding a harp, and with golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints;

Rev 8:3 And another angel came and stood at the altar with a golden censer; and he was given much incense to mingle with the prayers of all the saints upon the golden altar before the throne; 4 and the smoke of the incense rose with the prayers of the saints from the hand of the angel before God.

 

[Mikel12]

NOT EVERYTHING ABOUT GOD WAS WRITTEN DOWN"There are also many other things that Jesus did, but if these were to be described individually, I do not think the whole world would contain the books that would be written." John 21:25

AND PAUL ASKED US TO UPHOLD TRADITIONS THAT WERE ORALLY TRANSMITTED BY THE EARLY CHURCH"Therefore, brothers, stand firm and hold fast to the traditions that you were taught, either by an oral statement or by a letter of ours" - 2 Thess 2:15

Now I suggest we take the debate to what the Early Church fathers wrote down reagrding the subject of Mary’s sinlessness. Because the above scripture has guided us to their works.

The Early Church Fathers believed that Mary was full of grace and thus sinless.

Justin Martyr

Jesus] became man by the Virgin so that the course that was taken by disobedience in the beginning through the agency of the serpent might be also the very course by which it would be put down. Eve, a virgin and undefiled, conceived the word of the serpent and bore disobedience and death. But the Virgin Mary received faith and joy when the angel Gabriel announced to her the glad tidings that the Spirit of the Lord would come upon her and the power of the Most High would overshadow her, for which reason the Holy One being born of her is the Son of God. And she replied, “Be it done unto me according to your word” (Luke 1:38) (Dialogue with Trypho 100 [A.D. 155]).

Irenaeus

Consequently, then, Mary the Virgin is found to be obedient, saying, “Behold, 0 Lord, your handmaid; be it done to me according to your word.” Eve . . . who was then still a virgin although she had Adam for a husband — for in paradise they were both naked but were not ashamed; for, having been created only a short time, they had no understanding of the procreation of children . . . having become disobedient [sin], was made the cause of death for herself and for the whole human race; so also Mary, betrothed to a man but nevertheless still a virgin, being obedient [no sin], was made the cause of salvation for herself and for the whole human race. . . . Thus, the knot of Eve’s disobedience was loosed by the obedience of Mary. What the virgin Eve had bound in unbelief, the Virgin Mary loosed through faith (Against Heresies 3:22:24 [A.D. 189]).
Origen

This Virgin Mother of the Only-begotten of God is called Mary, worthy of God, immaculate of the immaculate, one of the one (Homily 1 [A.D. 244]).

Hippolytus

He [Jesus] was the ark formed of incorruptible wood. For by this is signified that His tabernacle [Mary] was exempt from defilement and corruption (Orat. In Illud, Dominus pascit me, in Gallandi, Bibl. Patrum, II, 496 ante [A.D. 235]).

Ephraim the Syrian

You alone and your Mother are more beautiful than any others, for there is neither blemish in you nor any stains upon your Mother. Who of my children can compare in beauty to these? (Nisibene Hymns 27:8 [A. D. 361]).
Ambrose of Milan

Come, then, and search out your sheep, not through your servants or hired men, but do it yourself. Lift me up bodily and in the flesh, which is fallen in Adam. Lift me up not from Sarah but from Mary, a Virgin not only undefiled but a Virgin whom grace had made inviolate, free of every stain of sin (Commentary on Psalm 118:22-30 [A.D. 387]).
Gregory Nazianzen

He was conceived by the virgin, who had been first purified by the Spirit in soul and body; for, as it was fitting that childbearing should receive its share of honor, so it was necessary that virginity should receive even greater honor (Sermon 38 [d. A.D. 390]).

Augustine

We must except the Holy Virgin Mary, concerning whom I wish to raise no question when it touches the subject of sins, out of honor to the Lord; for from Him we know what abundance of grace for overcoming sin in every particular was conferred upon her who had the merit to conceive and bear Him who undoubtedly had no sin (Nature and Grace 36:42 [A.D. 415]).

SO MISTER WHERE DO YOU GET THE IDEA THAT MARY WAS SINFUL. QUOTE BOTH SCRIPTURE AND TRADITION.