Why doesn't the Bible say that Mary was sinless?

[sandusky]

po18guy:

It’s an analogy! It’s a Sacred book, OK? But I don’t worship it. Not you, but I would almost swear that some worship the bible! Your bible says it’s incomplete, just like mine does. Don’t you imagine that there is more to Christ than just the self-admitted incomplete (but Sacred) book written about Him?

Although the scripture does not contain everything Christ did, or said, it is not incomplete. The HS assures that the scripture is of such completeness as to adequately equip the saints for every good work.

History books do not record every second of every day for every subject presented, but record, explain, and present the important points of history.

How much greater than that is the HS’s ability to record for God’s people everything they need to know?

po18guy:

Of course it does! “Sola Scriptura” is an invention. Christ never used it, and neither do we.

Of course He did.

He made very plain that His word was the final authority, and He made very plain that His word was to be assiduously observed, and that it was to be neither supplanted, nor abrogated by any other kind of “authority.”**Deuteronomy 4:2

“You shall not add to the word which I am commanding you, nor take away from it, that you may keep the commandments of the Lord your God which I command you.

Deuteronomy 12:32

“Whatever I command you, you shall be careful to do; you shall not add to nor take away from it.**Here I will remind you that the OT is a Christian book, and the commands in it with respect to the moral law, and God’s word continue to be binding on His people.

Subsequent to the issuance of those commands, Jewish tradition gathered momentum and practice until we find the very same Jesus confronting and rebuking the Jews of His day for elevating their tradition above His written word thereby nullifying it.**Mark 7:6-13

And He said to them, “Rightly did Isaiah prophesy of you hypocrites, as it is written: ‘This people honors Me with their lips, But their heart is far away from Me.

‘But in vain do they worship Me, Teaching as doctrines the precepts of men.’

“Neglecting the commandment of God, you hold to the tradition of men.”

He was also saying to them, “You are experts at setting aside the commandment of God in order to keep your tradition.

“For Moses said, ‘Honor your father and your mother’; and, ‘He who speaks evil of father or mother, is to be put to death’;

but you say, ‘If a man says to his father or his mother, whatever I have that would help you is Corban (that is to say, given to God),’

you no longer permit him to do anything for his father or his mother;

thus invalidating the word of God by your tradition which you have handed down; and you do many things such as that.”**Christ most certainly insists upon adherence to His written word over and above traditions.

po18guy:

We follow Christ’s example and Paul’s advice:

2 Thessalonians 2:15 “So then, brothers, stand firm and hold to the teachings we passed on to you, whether by word of mouth or by letter.”

The context is essential to a clear understanding of what Paul is saying.

Evidently the Thessalonians had been misled by a forged letter purported to have been written by Paul, telling them that the day of the Lord had already come (2:2). The church was upset by the letter, and Paul wrote to them to encourage them. He wanted to be certain that they would never again be taken in by phony correspondence, and told them how to recognize a genuine letter from him:**2 Thessalonians 3:17

I, Paul, write this greeting with my own hand, and this is a distinguishing mark in every letter; this is the way I write.**He also wanted them to stand fast to what he had already told them; namely, that the day of the Lord would be preceded by a falling away, and the unveiling of the man of lawlessness. ”Do you not remember that while I was still with you, I was telling you these things?” (2:5). Therefore, there was no reason for them to be troubled by a phony letter for they had already heard the truth from his own mouth.

The issue is not that the apostles’ oral teaching carried absolute authority, but whether that teaching is infallibly preserved by word of mouth. So the reference to truth received firsthand from Paul himself, is, IMO, irrelevant as support for your position.

Nothing suggest that the tradition the Thessalonians received from Paul is infallibly preserved anywhere except in scripture.

The point of Paul’s remarks are antithetical to your tradition, IMO. Paul does not encourage the Thessalonians to receive any tradition by second or third hand reports, but, to receive only as infallible truth that which they heard in his presence, and from his own lips.

IMO, you’re not doing what Paul instructed.

 

[adstrinity]

Is this thread still about how the Bible states Mary was sinless?

 

[Sean_Boyle]

Is this thread still about how the Bible states Mary was sinless?

Nope!

The Catholic argument won a long time ago, again.

The protestants are trying to rerail the thread so no one will realize it.

 

[sandusky]

JoeyWarren:

That is an incorrect assertion and assumption on your part. The qualifier in Eph 2:8 is the presence of Grace. Once the Grace is rejected or discarded then ppp of the salvation becomes null and void. You have been shown time and time again those verses that show that salvation can be lost yet you still try to play the Pharisee or Sadducee (or even worse Satan) who tried to trip up Jesus and/or his Apostles by trying to trip us here up.

Nice try Sandusky. But no blue chips.

As I suspected from previous discussions with other Catholics concerning kecharitomene/sesodzmenoi, you too are inconsistent with respect to your perfect, passive participle apologetic; namely, by it, Mary is proven to be ***”full of grace and sinless continuously,” ***but by it, those who are saved are not ”full of salvation continuously.”

As a Catholic, you’re required to believe, De fide, that God has, 1. predestined some to final glory (complete predestination), that He has, 2. predestined some to grace (incomplete predestination), and that, 3. the rest have been predestined to damnation based upon their foreseen demerit.

The destination of group 2 and 3 are the same—eternal damnation—as the number of group one is eternally fixed, and cannot change.

That means that those in group “2” are justified by God but they will lose that justification by some means, and they will never be glorified.

That contradicts God’s written word, in which it’s stated ”those He justified, He also glorified” (Rom 8:30).

 

[CentralFLJames]

I know of no sanction in Scripture for a person not to interpret the Scriptures. In fact Jesus certainly believed that people could read it and come to a proper understanding of it. In a sense the Scriptures do teach in that they impart knowledge to those who read and study them.

Actually Luke 10:16 tells us "The one who listens to you listens to Me, and the one who rejects you rejects Me; and he who rejects Me rejects the One who sent Me.” This indicates that we are to listen to the teachings and instructions of The Apostles and the Apostolic lineage. This taken together with the apostolic commission to teach makes it clear that there is no valid concept in private interpretation. Also, you are into a recursive concept here since there is no NT scripture at the time any of this was said. Can you show me in scripture evidence that “Jesus certainly believed that people could read it [a thing that does not exist yet] and come to a proper understanding of it” on their own? NT scripture did not exist at the time of Jesus until 400 years after He rose from the dead.

I can agree that in general reading and meditating on scripture is VERY GOOD - after one has been exposed to the core Christian teaching through The Church. From this reading and meditation one can get to a much deeper faith and understanding. However, The Catholic Church never assembled the Bible cannon for the purpose of making it a “self study”, “do it yourself” study guide that anyone could just pickup, read alone then “be saved” and “have a full truth”. The Bible was constructed by The Catholic Church as a means for teaching, for the liturgy of the Mass and to be a legacy and heritage for The Church for the greater glory of God. Therefor, one should not read scripture in “a complete vacuum” and should bring all questions to The Church for resolution. There are just too many different styles of writing and complex historical and social context present in the OT and NT scriptures for the average lay person to understand on their own without The Church teaching.

What is the Gospel message in the catholic church?
Secondly, do we agree that the only oral teaching of Jesus is to be found only in the Scriptures?

The Gospel message is the holistic message of Christ that takes 3 full years (just like Jesus’ teaching period) of Sunday Mass participation to hear one time while in the presence of Jesus’ salvific grace through the sacraments. One can not hear the full word of God and understand it all and take it to heart while in a state of grave sin. So salvation does not come by reading alone. One must respond to the spirt of truth and trust in God and in His Church. Hearing Jesus’ full word only comes through immersion of grace and in hearing it taught and then LIVING it daily.

Is it not true that not all of the teachings of the catholic church is not apostolic?

I am not sure what you mean here - I can’t follow all the double negation and negatives that obscure what it is you are trying to get to. Are you asking does The Church teach additional things not in scripture? If so, technically, I have to say yes - since we have rich Catholic schools which teach math, science, reading, writing etc. in addition to catechism. Jesus never taught any of this as far as we know (except for a few parables about the talents and so forth). No apostolic commission is necessary here. But note clearly that it was the wise men who were studious in God’s Creation who were able to recognize and discern the significance of Jesus’ birth from afar and bring to him gifts befitting a king. Teaching things from the nature of Creation is not necessarily spiritual nor related directly to our salvation; and so these things are not apostolic in commission. But nonetheless this prefigures how those not yet in The Kingdom nor members of The Church may be compelled by God to participate and serve God and receive His blessings and graces by acting on the graces they receive through His Church. There is most definitely, “hope” for all humanity through the mystical body of Christ, The Church. The Church by its existence and obedience to God and its given authority opens through the sacrifice of The Mass a channel of grace that floods all of humanity. Thus all men are called to God.

Do you have chapter and verse for this?

Do you have a counter example where Jesus commissions those who are not part of His disciples nor in Communion with His Church to teach the Bible?

The Church gets its authority from Jesus directly. Those outside the Church and in need of evidence can look to Matthew 16:18-19 taken together with Matthew 28:10.
*
And so I say to you, you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church, 13 and the gates of the netherworld shall not prevail against it. 19 I will give you the keys to the kingdom of heaven. Whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven; and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven."

And Jesus came up and spoke to them, saying, “All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth. 19 “Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all that I commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age.”*

James

 

[adstrinity]

Nope!

The Catholic argument won a long time ago, again.

The protestants are trying to rerail the thread so no one will realize it.

Ah! Very good. I made it to post 55 and saw it was trying to be hijacked then.

Might I ask all the Protestants to be good enough to capitalise, “Catholic,” when referring to our Church? It’s just proper English. Ta!

 

[CentralFLJames]

or by a failure to do good when you could have…

… or by judging others by human standards and motives.

James

 

[JoeyWarren]

As I suspected from previous discussions with other Catholics concerning kecharitomene/sesodzmenoi, you too are inconsistent with respect to your perfect, passive participle apologetic; namely, by it, Mary is proven to be ***”full of grace and sinless continuously,” ***but by it, those who are saved are not ”full of salvation continuously.”

**I don’t think I ever stated the “Continuously” argument. You are reading much more than what I wrote. **

 

[JoeyWarren]

As a Catholic, you’re required to believe, De fide, that God has, 1. predestined some to final glory (complete predestination), that He has, 2. predestined some to grace (incomplete predestination), and that, 3. the rest have been predestined to damnation based upon their foreseen demerit.

**Am I? And who is Ludwig Ott that I should listen to him? **

---

 

[emeraldisle]

HI-

I don’t know if anyone’s touched on this but Mary gave birth to as much a human man as a divine one. To deny that is to deny the nature of Christ. A human baby assumes and inherits the mother’s DNA, and yes, humanity’s stain of original sin. If Mary wasn’t saved from humanity’s stain of original sin, Jesus would also have inherited it.
We know Jesus was without sin .

Gods written Word tells us that Jesus was without sin;

For even hereunto were you called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that you should follow His steps: who did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth:
1Peter 2:21-22

However Gods written Word does not tell us that Mary was sinless. I believe what God says in His written Word!

.

 

[po18guy]

The problem a person has without a written record is that you have no way to verify the claim. Secondly, oral teachings get corrupted rather quickly.

Your have very consistent views. You dislike not only the teaching method chosen by Christ Himself, and the method used by the Twelve and Paul, but also the church Christ founded. Prayers for unity.

 

[emeraldisle]

The Holy Spirit is the author. The Catholic Church is the earthly custodian of cannon. It is part of the authority of loosing and binding to discern what was inspired. Nor is scripture all of God’s word. God’s word is also present in the Catholic liturgy and Tradition. Protestants have no authority whatsoever to teach scripture and will be held accountable as false teachers for so doing.

All of Gods revealed truth is in His written Word, period.

God has revealed in His written Word that Jesus is sinless but He hasn’t revealed in His written Word that Mary was sinless. I believe what God says, He always tells the true truth.

There is no proof of immaculate conception in scripture? There is no proof that there is God either. What is your point? The Bible has always been a book of faith - it was not meant to be a proof text.

The whole written Word of God is proof of God.

IC is not in Gods written Word because its not true!

True faith in God is based upon His “Truth” and Gods “Truth” is in His written Word!

.

 

[Enoch]

Why didn’t God say in His Word that Mary is sinless?

Surely if Mary was sinless God would have made sure that this fact was recorded in His Word.

Why didn’t God say in His Word the word “Trinity”?
Why didn’t God say in His Word to just accept Jesus Christ as your personal Lord and Savior in order to be saved?
Why didn’t God mention in His Word reciting the “Sinners Prayer”?
Why didn’t God mention in His Word altar calls?
Why didn’t God say in His Word you must be baptized by full immersion?
Why didn’t God say in His Word all sins are equal in gravity?
Why didn’t God say in His Word we are saved by faith alone?
Why didn’t God say in His Word that the Bible is the sole rule of faith?
Why didn’t God say in His Word Christ paid the full penalty of sin?
Why didn’t God say in His Word individuals can privately interpret Scripture accurately?
Why didn’t God say in His Word “Once saved always saved”
Why didn’t God say in His Word Baptism is symbolic and just a public declaration of faith?
Why didn’t God mention in His Word a pre-tribulation rapture?
Why didn’t God say in His Word we should go to church on Sunday?
Why didn’t God say in His Word we should celebrate the Lord’s birth?
Why didn’t God say in His Word we should celebrate the Lord’s resurrection?

Surely if this was true God would have made sure these facts were recorded in His Word.

 

[po18guy]

Don’t you trust in God? Don’t you trust in Jesus great commission to His Church?

From the hundreds of posts in numerous and varied threads he has made, the outside observer must conclude: No. He does not trust the teaching method used by Christ, or the Church He founded. I am guessing that he is in love with the concept of Christ, but the reality (as in John 6) troubles him. I pray for him.

Christ’s peace.

 

[davidv]

{snip}
All of Gods revealed truth is in His written Word, period.
{snip}

Do you realize that with this statement, you have just declared that the Apostles did not have access to God’s revealed truth. This is patently false. And this demonstrates how clearly untruthful this statement is.

 

[Enoch]

Originally Posted by justasking4
The problem a person has without a written record is that you have no way to verify the claim. Secondly, oral teachings get corrupted rather quickly.

One of the tests used to determine the canon of the New Testament was to see if the scripture conformed to the Oral Tradition of the faith. You cannot trust the Bible without trusting the Oral Tradition that was handed down through the centuries.

 

[Enoch]

Originally Posted by** emeraldisle **
All of Gods revealed truth is in His written Word, period.

Show me where is says that in the Bible.

 

[CentralFLJames]

Gods written Word tells us that Jesus was without sin;

For even hereunto were you called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that you should follow His steps: who did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth:
1Peter 2:21-22

However Gods written Word does not tell us that Mary was sinless. I believe what God says in His written Word!

.

Oh, but the error of Protestantism contradicts itself and paints Jesus into a corner. The erroneous Protestant logic tells us that Jesus became sin to “save us”. Protestant’s would have God the Father who is perfectly Just destroy the Holy Spirit, the love between God and Son, by unjustly punishing His Divine Son because He is not only sinful but because He is sin.

2 Corinthians 5:21 He made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.

With such ridiculous theology and error why should any Christian want to think Protestants have any credibility to be teaching us what “scripture says” about Mary or anyone? Protestant theory (error) single handedly divides truth against truth and The Trinity against Itself.

It’s time for Protestants to give up the pretense it knows anything about salvation other than the need to be baptised. It’s time for Protestants to escape the death trap of hubris and rejection of Catholic apostolic authority to cease and desist from trying to teach the Teacher. Time is short. It is time for Protestants to go to The Catholic Church to get the proper teaching in order to excise the grave error of Protestantism. Protestantism is an error that just keeps growing and growing as it snowballs down the slippery slope to meet its fate below.

James

 

[justinthemartyr]

All of Gods revealed truth is in His written Word, period.

God has revealed in His written Word that Jesus is sinless but He hasn’t revealed in His written Word that Mary was sinless. I believe what God says, He always tells the true truth.

The whole written Word of God is proof of God.

IC is not in Gods written Word because its not true!

True faith in God is based upon His “Truth” and Gods “Truth” is in His written Word!

.

That’s hilarious!

Scott Hahn got this question while he was yet presbyterian. Someone asked him where, in the Bible does it say that the Bible alone is the sole authority of God? He replied, that has got to be the dumbest question…

then he couldn’t find it.

NO where, does scripture claim to be that. The Word of God is not, nor ever will be limited to the written word. If this were true, then your Bible would be missing 7 books of written Truth from the OT canon that Martin Luther(a man) took out in 1546. AND you would not have the Bible you presently have, because it took extra biblical means of receiving the canon of scripture since scripture does not list the canon.

 

[po18guy]

All of Gods revealed truth is in His written Word, period…

It appears that your love of God cannot be challenged. Your exposure to His truth, however, certainly can. The bible nowhere states that it is complete. Exactly the opposite is true: It states that it is incomplete! In several places:

Luke 3:18 And with many other words John exhorted the people and preached the good news to them.

John 20:30 Jesus did many other miraculous signs in the presence of his disciples, which are not recorded in this book.

John 21:25 Jesus did many other things as well. If every one of them were written down, I suppose that even the whole world would not have room for the books that would be written.

Acts 2:40 With many other words he warned them; and he pleaded with them, “Save yourselves from this corrupt generation.”

We are blessed to have the Sacred Scriptures. However, Jesus never wrote a “bible”. He never taught from one. He never commanded the writing of one. He never authorized one. And, this is all you have of him. How stunted your exposure is to God’s truth!

Jesus used the oral tradition and passed it on to the Twelve, who passed it on to Paul. Your church has apparently thrown this away. Why? Being in possession of the owner’s manual does mean you have the car. Look deeper into faith. Discover how Christ is present to us, “even to the end of the age” in the Eucharist. Amen! Alleluia!