Why doesn't the Bible say that Mary was sinless?

[justinthemartyr]

amen! amen!

 

[po18guy]

That’s hilarious!

Scott Hahn got this question while he was yet presbyterian. Someone asked him where, in the Bible does it say that the Bible alone is the sole authority of God? He replied, that has got to be the dumbest question…

Then, the student said, “well, give me the dumbest answer…”

The search for truth always leads to the church Christ founded.

So many love the concept of Christ. So many are also troubled by His reality.

 

[JoeyWarren]

NO where, does scripture claim to be that. The Word of God is not, nor ever will be limited to the written word.** If this were true, then your Bible would be missing 7 books of written Truth from the OT canon that Martin Luther(a man) took out in 1546.** AND you would not have the Bible you presently have, because it took extra biblical means of receiving the canon of scripture since scripture does not list the canon.

That is not a fair assessment. The books were not taken out in mass until 1829 when the American Bible Society agreed to provide a low cost Bible if and only if they could leave out the 7 books. Now Martin Luther was definitely and ultimately responsible for this. His first Bible had them in there but in the back as an appendix. He still had just a little bit of fear of God which kept him removing them entirely.

 

[bookgirl32]

I don’t want to derail this thread. Briefly the scriptures are the starting and ending points for doctrine and practice. Everything that is essential for a Christian to believe and practice can be found there. There are beliefs that i do have that are not in scripture but these would not have the authority or foundation as beliefs grounded in the Scriptures.

But that doesn’t answer my question. And this thread was derailed a loooonnnnng time ago. But I’ll start a new thread, will that work?

 

[bookgirl32]

Gods written Word tells us that Jesus was without sin;

For even hereunto were you called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that you should follow His steps: who did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth:
1Peter 2:21-22

However Gods written Word does not tell us that Mary was sinless. I believe what God says in His written Word!

.

God’s written word does not tell us that Mary was NOT sinless, therefore God’s written word said nothing on the matter, hmmmm. . . .

 

[bookgirl32]

Show me where is says that in the Bible.

Oh don’t even try to get that out him, I’ve asked him about six times and he keeps ignoring the question.

 

[Enoch]

Oh don’t even try to get that out him, I’ve asked him about six times and he keeps ignoring the question.

Yea, I know I won’t get anything out of him. Sola Scriptura is just one of the many baseless heresies throughout history against the one “Pillar and Bulwark of Truth” i.e. the Church.

BTW eameraldisle… that IS in the Bible.

 

[adstrinity]

bookgirl32, Enoch, maybe emeraldisle doesn’t hold to and revere what the Bible says as much as he wants us to believe he does. Shall we dismiss him as a heretical troll?

 

[bookgirl32]

bookgirl32, Enoch, maybe emeraldisle doesn’t hold to and revere what the Bible says as much as he wants us to believe he does. Shall we dismiss him as a heretical troll?

Um, did I do that? I simply said he won’t answer the question, which he won’t.

 

[adstrinity]

Um, did I do that? I simply said he won’t answer the question, which he won’t.

Yes, what I am saying is if he keeps dodging the question, perhaps he doesn’t have as much faith in the Bible as he is having us read into him (if one IS reading that of him). You have done nothing uncharitable that I have seen, I am just wondering that if somebody holds to what the Bible says so sacredly, why is he not answering/refuting your questions Biblically. He’s not, from what I’m seeing, defending anything he believes, he’s just throwing out more text for us to dispute.

 

[CentralFLJames]

Um, did I do that? I simply said he won’t answer the question, which he won’t.

I don’t think he was saying you were but was suggesting we treat him as a troll looking for attention.

“Don’t feed the trolls - they just reproduce and invite their friends”.

James

 

[Enoch]

bookgirl32, Enoch, maybe emeraldisle doesn’t hold to and revere what the Bible says as much as he wants us to believe he does. Shall we dismiss him as a heretical troll?

I would say uninformed. I usually think of heretics as those who were once in union with the Catholic Church but have fallen away and started different traditions (the Gnostics, Montanus, Arius, Nestorius, The Cathars , Luther, ect…). Emraldisle is not a heretic himself but follows the teachings of heretical doctrines.

A troll is someone who poses to be someone they are not and just want to cause trouble. I think emeraldisle is being genuine.

 

[CentralFLJames]

Yes, what I am saying is if he keeps dodging the question, perhaps he doesn’t have as much faith in the Bible as he is having us read into him (if one IS reading that of him). You have done nothing uncharitable that I have seen, I am just wondering that if somebody holds to what the Bible says so sacredly, why is he not answering/refuting your questions Biblically. He’s not, from what I’m seeing, defending anything he believes, he’s just throwing out more text for us to dispute.

This is the sign of an anti-Catholic mercenary. Some fundamental Protestants recruit people to hang out at Catholic forums and drag the place down, and tie up Catholics in circular arguments that go no where.

James

 

[justasking4]

po18guy;3570855]
Originally Posted by justasking4
The problem a person has without a written record is that you have no way to verify the claim. Secondly, oral teachings get corrupted rather quickly.

po18guy
Your have very consistent views. You dislike not only the teaching method chosen by Christ Himself, and the method used by the Twelve and Paul, but also the church Christ founded. Prayers for unity.

Do you agree with my premise or not? If not, why not?

 

[justasking4]

One of the tests used to determine the canon of the New Testament was to see if the scripture conformed to the Oral Tradition of the faith. You cannot trust the Bible without trusting the Oral Tradition that was handed down through the centuries.

Can you give me a couple examples of what exactly this “Oral Tradition that was handed down through the centuries” was?

 

[justasking4]

But that doesn’t answer my question. And this thread was derailed a loooonnnnng time ago. But I’ll start a new thread, will that work?

Yes…

 

[Enoch]

Do you agree with my premise or not? If not, why not?

Sorry to butt in, but look at post #373. I tried to respond.

 

[justasking4]

It appears that your love of God cannot be challenged. Your exposure to His truth, however, certainly can. The bible nowhere states that it is complete. Exactly the opposite is true: It states that it is incomplete! In several places:

Luke 3:18 And with many other words John exhorted the people and preached the good news to them.

John 20:30 Jesus did many other miraculous signs in the presence of his disciples, which are not recorded in this book.

John 21:25 Jesus did many other things as well. If every one of them were written down, I suppose that even the whole world would not have room for the books that would be written.

Acts 2:40 With many other words he warned them; and he pleaded with them, “Save yourselves from this corrupt generation.”

We are blessed to have the Sacred Scriptures. However, Jesus never wrote a “bible”. He never taught from one. He never commanded the writing of one. He never authorized one. And, this is all you have of him. How stunted your exposure is to God’s truth!

Jesus used the oral tradition and passed it on to the Twelve, who passed it on to Paul. Your church has apparently thrown this away. Why? Being in possession of the owner’s manual does mean you have the car. Look deeper into faith. Discover how Christ is present to us, “even to the end of the age” in the Eucharist. Amen! Alleluia!

What exactly was this oral tradition that you and others keep referring to? It can’t be the Scriptures since those are written. What exactly are they i.e. “Jesus used the oral tradition and passed it on to the Twelve, who passed it on to Paul”?

It would help me tredmendously if you can give me a couple of examples of it.

 

[Enoch]

Can you give me a couple examples of what exactly this “Oral Tradition that was handed down through the centuries” was?

Sure

Examples of Jesus’ and the Apostles’ Reliance on Oral Tradition

Matt. 2:23 - the prophecy “He shall be a Nazarene” is oral tradition. It is not found in the Old Testament. This demonstrates that the apostles relied upon oral tradition and taught by oral tradition.

Matt 23:2 - Jesus relies on the oral tradition of acknowledging Moses’ seat of authority (which passed from Moses to Joshua to the Sanhedrin). This is not recorded in the Old Testament.

John 19:26; 20:2; 21:20,24 - knowing that the “beloved disciple” is John is inferred from Scripture, but is also largely oral tradition.

Acts 20:35 - Paul relies on the oral tradition of the apostles for this statement (“it is better to give than to receive”) of Jesus. It is not recorded in the Gospels.

1 Cor. 7:10 - Paul relies on the oral tradition of the apostles to give the charge of Jesus that a wife should not separate from her husband.

1 Cor. 10:4 - Paul relies on the oral tradition of the rock following Moses. It is not recorded in the Old Testament. See Exodus 17:1-17 and Num. 20:2-13.

Eph 5:14 - Paul relies on oral tradition to quote an early Christian hymn - “awake O sleeper rise from the dead and Christ shall give you light.”

Heb. 11:37 - the author of Hebrews relies on the oral tradition of the martyrs being sawed in two. This is not recorded in the Old Testament.

Jude 9 - Jude relies on the oral tradition of the Archangel Michael’s dispute with satan over Moses’ body. This is not found in the Old Testament.

Jude 14-15 - Jude relies on the oral tradition of Enoch’s prophecy which is not recorded in the Old Testament.

 

[justasking4]

Sure

Examples of Jesus’ and the Apostles’ Reliance on Oral Tradition

Matt. 2:23 - the prophecy “He shall be a Nazarene” is oral tradition. It is not found in the Old Testament. This demonstrates that the apostles relied upon oral tradition and taught by oral tradition.

Matt 23:2 - Jesus relies on the oral tradition of acknowledging Moses’ seat of authority (which passed from Moses to Joshua to the Sanhedrin). This is not recorded in the Old Testament.

John 19:26; 20:2; 21:20,24 - knowing that the “beloved disciple” is John is inferred from Scripture, but is also largely oral tradition.

Acts 20:35 - Paul relies on the oral tradition of the apostles for this statement (“it is better to give than to receive”) of Jesus. It is not recorded in the Gospels.

1 Cor. 7:10 - Paul relies on the oral tradition of the apostles to give the charge of Jesus that a wife should not separate from her husband.

1 Cor. 10:4 - Paul relies on the oral tradition of the rock following Moses. It is not recorded in the Old Testament. See Exodus 17:1-17 and Num. 20:2-13.

Eph 5:14 - Paul relies on oral tradition to quote an early Christian hymn - “awake O sleeper rise from the dead and Christ shall give you light.”

Heb. 11:37 - the author of Hebrews relies on the oral tradition of the martyrs being sawed in two. This is not recorded in the Old Testament.

Jude 9 - Jude relies on the oral tradition of the Archangel Michael’s dispute with satan over Moses’ body. This is not found in the Old Testament.

Jude 14-15 - Jude relies on the oral tradition of Enoch’s prophecy which is not recorded in the Old Testament.

How do you know these are all oral traditions and not written down somewhere? Just because something is not found in the OT does not make it a oral tradition. Oral traditions by definition are not written down.