Why doesn't the Bible say that Mary was sinless?

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That didn’t answer my question. My question was to show me scripture that states that scripture is the ONLY authority. That doesn’t state that. So that’s not an answer. You could answer, “There isn’t one,” which is the truth, but I think you’re afraid it will prove sola scriptura wrong, by it’s own definition.
Do you only want an answer that agrees with your point of view?

Why should I doubt Gods ability to reveal His truth in His written Word? I don’t, I know God has revealed His truth in His written Word.

Gods written Word doesn’t say Mary was sinless but it does say the following;

Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
Rom 5:12

.
 
My mistake. Without anything written i think within a generation or 2 it would be gone.
Oh ye of little faith! How many generations were there between Adam and Moses? The Creation story, Noah, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Joseph, etc… survived in oral form for ALL of those generations before Moses wrote a word down. How did Noah or Abraham know about God, before He spoke to them? They didn’t even have the book of Genesis! All the Israelites in Egypt knew of God was what they were told. Oral communication was used LONG before the written word was invented.

Going back to the topic of this thread:
I found this quote at the Catholic Bridge: (link to full article, definitely worth a look)
*
Catholic Christianity does believe that Mary was a sinner. Not an ACTUAL sinner, but a POTENTIAL sinner who was redeemed by God from the moment of her conception so that she never fell into sin. So yes, Mary was redeemed, but she was also predestined by God to bear his Son and so she was upheld from falling into sin.* ~Art Sippo
 
Can somebody, ANYBODY show me in the Bible was NOT sinless? Is there anybody here who can do that?
 
Sorry, but it was the Berean “crowds” NOT the Berean Brethren that were “agitated” against Paul. The Brethren escorted Paul to safety.

Before throwing Scripture back in someones face, at least rightly divide the meaning. :tsktsk:

EmeraldIsle is right on the money.
And wasn’t it ‘the many’ (the majority) of people of Berea who believed Paul initially? It wasn’t that big a place. So where did these Berean crowds come from if not among Paul’s own former followers, hmmm?

And no, the Bereans didn’t escort Paul anywhere - they ‘sent him away’ from Berea, sure, but there’s no indication that they cared where he ended up or helped him to get to safety.

Who’s not rightly dividing now? :tsktsk:
 
What exactly was this oral tradition that you and others keep referring to? It can’t be the Scriptures since those are written. What exactly are they i.e. “Jesus used the oral tradition and passed it on to the Twelve, who passed it on to Paul”?

It would help me tredmendously if you can give me a couple of examples of it.
Can you give me a couple examples of what exactly this “Oral Tradition that was handed down through the centuries” was?
No, ja4, it is not permitted for outsiders to know these divine mysteries. To understand and access such Sacred elements, one must approach in faith. Since you approach in calumny, you cannot access them. The Scriptures are, in fact, completely taken from Sacred Tradition.
How do you know these are all oral traditions and not written down somewhere? Just because something is not found in the OT does not make it a oral tradition. Oral traditions by definition are not written down.
I think it would be just about impossible to find any that are not found in writings somewhere, whether inside the NT, or outside. We don’t make this distinction. We recognize one, entire, whole divine deposit of faith.
 
guanophore;3572050]No, ja4, it is not permitted for outsiders to know these divine mysteries. To understand and access such Sacred elements, one must approach in faith. Since you approach in calumny, you cannot access them. The Scriptures are, in fact, completely taken from Sacred Tradition.
Admit it, you don’t know what they are. :eek:
I think it would be just about impossible to find any that are not found in writings somewhere, whether inside the NT, or outside. We don’t make this distinction. We recognize one, entire, whole divine deposit of faith.
So the idea of an oral tradition of the apostle is futile since we don’t know what it was exactly. All we know what Jesus and His apostles is to be found in the written Scriptrues.
 
More from the Catholic Bridge:

Three hundred years before it was declared Dogma, the Protestant reformer Martin Luther said:
Code:
"....so that while the soul was being infused, she would at the same time be cleansed from original sin...And thus, in the very moment in which she began to live, she was without all sin." (Martin Luther's Works, vol 4, pg 694)

"God has formed the soul and body of the Virgin Mary full of the Holy Spirit, so that she is without all sins, " (ibid. vol 52, pg 39)

". . . she is full of grace, proclaimed to be entirely without sin. . . . God's grace fills her with everything good and makes her devoid of all evil. . . . God is with her, meaning that all she did or left undone is divine and the action of God in her. Moreover, God guarded and protected her from all that might be hurtful to her." (Ref: Luther's Works, American edition, vol. 43, p. 40, ed. H. Lehmann, Fortress, 1968)
Another point to ponder: Didn’t God create Adam and Eve without sin? They spent quite a bit of time in the presence of God, we don’t know how long they were in the Garden before the Fall, but we know that they were sinless at their creation. If God could do that for Adam and Eve, why couldn’t He do that for the Ark of the New Covenant, Mary?
 
More from the Catholic Bridge:

Three hundred years before it was declared Dogma, the Protestant reformer Martin Luther said:
Code:
"....so that while the soul was being infused, she would at the same time be cleansed from original sin...And thus, in the very moment in which she began to live, she was without all sin." (Martin Luther's Works, vol 4, pg 694)

"God has formed the soul and body of the Virgin Mary full of the Holy Spirit, so that she is without all sins, " (ibid. vol 52, pg 39)

". . . she is full of grace, proclaimed to be entirely without sin. . . . God's grace fills her with everything good and makes her devoid of all evil. . . . God is with her, meaning that all she did or left undone is divine and the action of God in her. Moreover, God guarded and protected her from all that might be hurtful to her." (Ref: Luther's Works, American edition, vol. 43, p. 40, ed. H. Lehmann, Fortress, 1968)
Another point to ponder: Didn’t God create Adam and Eve without sin? They spent quite a bit of time in the presence of God, we don’t know how long they were in the Garden before the Fall, but we know that they were sinless at their creation. If God could do that for Adam and Eve, why couldn’t He do that for the Ark of the New Covenant, Mary?
I suppose He could have. The question though is: Did He and what is the evidence for it? If He did He never revealed to anyone.
 
If you mean the Apostles only TAUGHT orally on those topics, yes indeedy. And it’s just as authoritative as Jesus’ own teachings which were ALL oral, if you recall 🙂
The Holy Spirit inspired the writers to WRITE about the teachings of the Savior. That is not oral tradition.

So, you would NOT agree with Cardinal Newman who had to concede there was zero historical evidence that Paul taught anything like the Marian doctrines and papal infalibility.

Newmans unique development of doctrine theory exists to spin away the fact that there are NO writings containing any mention of those “oral” traditions until 200 to 800 years after the resurrection.

How do you know that Paul taught those doctrines?
 
I suppose He could have. The question though is: Did He and what is the evidence for it? If He did He never revealed to anyone.
He apparently revealed it to someone since the Church has always taught it, and Martin Luther, even with all the other doctrines he was throwing out left and right, continued to teach the Immaculate Conception of Mary. So it was only some 1500+ years after Mary’s earthly life that it was challenged (how these people suddenly knew better than those who knew her personally, I have no idea) and the Church had to then declare it dogma. It wasn’t that the Pope woke up one morning and said, “Hey, it’s a nice day. I think I’ll declare that Mary was preserved from the stain of Original Sin!” Not hardly.
 
Do you only want an answer that agrees with your point of view?

Why should I doubt Gods ability to reveal His truth in His written Word? I don’t, I know God has revealed His truth in His written Word.

Gods written Word doesn’t say Mary was sinless but it does say the following;

Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
Rom 5:12

.
But we know some of Jesus’ written words are lost to us completely. In fact the only thing Christ ever wrote that is stated in scripture is when he wrote in the sand before the woman caught in adultery. Apparently the only single thing Jesus was ever stated to have written was lost by the wind but not at all important to our salvation or was it?

It is apparent that you have not read the references I have previously given. Here are some highlights from another source that show how the Marian doctrine is not in contradiction with scripture. You simply can’t accept it because you can’t accept ALL of what is in scripture. In particular you can’t accept the authority of Christ’s Church - and that makes you a disobedient Christian.

Consider this:
If all have sinned in the literal sense through your sin of fundamentalist logic, that means Jesus sinned too. But Jesus did not sin - even though Protestants like to make out that Jesus became sin in a false substitution sort of theology. That sort of Protestant error puts the Trinity at odds with itself and becomes blatantly impossible. So your interpretation is in error.

It logically follows if Jesus is an exception, Mary can be as well. Catholics have already stated that not all of God’s word is in scripture. We believe in a revealed truth through the Holy Spirit which will never contradict scripture.

Second, you misinterpret Paul. Paul means that all people are subject to original sin. Mary was also subject to original sin, but God Himself redeemed her from the moment of her conception. Mary’s sinlessness is completely based on the anticipated sacrifice of Jesus Christ. In other words, God let all of us fall into original sin, and then washed us in baptism. For Mary, God did not let her fall. Both scenarios leave scripture consistent and show how Christ’s redemption can in the general case of humanity be initiated through baptism but in another very rare case through total preemption by “saving” Mary from from falling into sin while she was still subject to temptation.

Third, a logical mind must admit that not “all have sinned,” because babies, the mentally retarded, and the senile cannot sin (that is, they are not culpable for their sin).

Fourth, the word “all” in Rom 3:23 in Greek is pantes. It is the same word used in 1 Cor 15:22 where Paul says “all” have died. But we know that Enoch and Elijah did not die; they were assumed into heaven. This means that when Paul says “all” (pantes), he does not mean every single one. In fact, Paul says in Rom 5:19 that “many” were made sinners. This means that when Paul says “all” in regard to sinners, he really means “many.”

Change “all” to many in the Paul’s words and you may be able to understand your error.

Just to make one final point about how you fundamentalists set yourself up for error please note that the phrase “so death passed upon all men” or ‘all men have sinned’ please note the obvious that Mary was not a man. Why be inconsistent and not take a literal read here? 😉

James
 
This is the sign of an anti-Catholic mercenary. Some fundamental Protestants recruit people to hang out at Catholic forums and drag the place down, and tie up Catholics in circular arguments that go no where.

James
Do you have any names? I’m justasking…
 
The only one was the Lord Jesus.
Where does it say this in scripture?

You Protestants have a consistent problem in your “solas”. You want By faith ALONE/Only and by Scripture ALONE/Only and by Grace ALONE/Only in ad-nasuem contradiction. Do you not believe your own (erroneous) Protestant theology that is based on the literal interpretation that ‘Jesus becomes sin’ on the cross?

If you are going to use absolute terms like ALONE and ONLY then you start to sound like you are pontificating. If you do that you need a better batting average because you constantly contradict yourself and prove yourself to be fallible.

James
 
Pixie Dust;3572119]
Originally Posted by justasking4
I suppose He could have. The question though is: Did He and what is the evidence for it? If He did He never revealed to anyone.
Pixie Dust;
He apparently revealed it to someone since the Church has always taught it,
Who was this “whom” and when? Secondly there were many church fathers did not teach she was sinless.
and Martin Luther, even with all the other doctrines he was throwing out left and right, continued to teach the Immaculate Conception of Mary.
My impression of the refromation was not focused on these doctrines but other things. Also Luther was still influenced by his catholicism.
So it was only some 1500+ years after Mary’s earthly life that it was challenged (how these people suddenly knew better than those who knew her personally, I have no idea)
Those (NT writers) that knew her personally never taught she was sinless either. They never make the case for it.
and the Church had to then declare it dogma. It wasn’t that the Pope woke up one morning and said, “Hey, it’s a nice day. I think I’ll declare that Mary was preserved from the stain of Original Sin!” Not hardly.
I agree. It was done more on a popular vote than on a biblical-historical basis.
 
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