Why don't Catholics have Open Communion?

[Esdra]

I’m totally confused by this, Esdra. You are Roman Catholic and yet you choose to believe what you want and follow catechisms of Protestant denoms? I’m totally confused here, brother

I haven’t been following the CC for, uhm, about 8 years now.
This has to do with my father, who’s also a kind of heretic.

I just wanted to say that I am still in the CC (means I haven’t resigned from it officially), but I have been visiting a Baptist Church for 1 1/2 years now.

So, don’t worry. I also usually don’t attend mass - only in the recent holy Days I’ve been there. Normally I visit the Baptist service. But since the whole family is (heretic) Catholic and it is tradition to go to mass on the Holy Days in our family, I went with them to Catholic mass.
And (since I like praying the rosary; it’s so meditative… ), I go to funerals or to the rosary offered in our parish on an unregular basis.

Esdra

 

[dzheremi]

Ah…and here I thought this “if it feels good, do it” pseudo-religion was mainly a North American thing, brought on by the unholy union of 1960s hippie thinking and 1980s narcissism that not-coincidentally maps on pretty much perfectly to the life trajectories of its largest body of believers, the baby boomers. Whatever you want to call it, please don’t call it Christianity of any kind! Christ never taught that you can believe whatever you want, and if you’re a Christian you listen to Him, not to yourself.

The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately sick; who can understand it? (Jer. 17:19)

 

[Esdra]

Ah…and here I thought this “if it feels good, do it” pseudo-religion was mainly a North American thing, brought on by the unholy union of 1960s hippie thinking and 1980s narcissism that not-coincidentally maps on pretty much perfectly to the life trajectories of its largest body of believers, the baby boomers. Whatever you want to call it, please don’t call it Christianity of any kind! Christ never taught that you can believe whatever you want, and if you’re a Christian you listen to Him, not to yourself.

The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately sick; who can understand it? (Jer. 17:19)

I believe whatever I want in the frame of what Christ teaches which is to be found in the Holy Bible… Which is His will.
Would I otherwise be a Baptist? No, I wouldn’t. I, in the best case, would be an Agnostic.

Esdra

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

Why do you say “don’t worry?” I wasn’t worried, just asked for some explanation as I was confused by your post. Are you considering returning to Catholicism? I have been Anglican off and on for years, and I still am struggling with Catholicism yet I’m giving it a try again. It’s not easy. I really miss my Anglican parish. The priest, people, the fellowship, the lovely worship, all very edifying. There is great love for Jesus there and in many Protestant communions.

What I am concerned about is your use of the word “heretic.” That’s a pretty tough term honestly, a very awful word. You’re using the term pretty lightly.

I haven’t been following the CC for, uhm, about 8 years now.
This has to do with my father, who’s also a kind of heretic.

I just wanted to say that I am still in the CC (means I haven’t resigned from it officially), but I have been visiting a Baptist Church for 1 1/2 years now.

So, don’t worry. I also usually don’t attend mass - only in the recent holy Days I’ve been there. Normally I visit the Baptist service. But since the whole family is (heretic) Catholic and it is tradition to go to mass on the Holy Days in our family, I went with them to Catholic mass.
And (since I like praying the rosary; it’s so meditative… ), I go to funerals or to the rosary offered in our parish on an unregular basis.

Esdra

 

[dzheremi]

I am confused. You believe whatever you want within the frame of what Christ teaches in the Holy Bible, including when the Holy Bible tells you that it is not okay to believe whatever you want?

My head hurts.

 

[PRmerger]

Nevertheless I read what I want. And believe what I want.

Isn’t that creating a god in your own image? Shouldn’t you conform your view to God’s, rather than believing what you want and making god conform to your own personal preferences?

Is there any saying of God’s that you have a hard time with, yet you believe because you know that’s what God has revealed?

 

[Esdra]

Why do you say “don’t worry?” I wasn’t worried, just asked for some explanation as I was confused by your post. Are you considering returning to Catholicism? I have been Anglican off and on for years, and I still am struggling with Catholicism yet I’m giving it a try again. It’s not easy. I really miss my Anglican parish. The priest, people, the fellowship, the lovely worship, all very edifying. There is great love for Jesus there and in many Protestant communions.

I actually don’t know. I have learned really a lot about Catholicism here in CAF (I was hardly catechised when I came here).
But actually , I am sitting between the chairs: I can see the good things about Catholicism, but I don’t want to leave my “Baptist family”.
Because in our Catholic parish there is not or even no community like I have it among my Baptist brothers and sisters…

What I am concerned about is your use of the word “heretic.” That’s a pretty tough term honestly, a very awful word. You’re using the term pretty lightly.

Well, I got to know here that if you don’t believe ALL doctrines of the CC you are a heretic…
My dad is, I am, my mom is… Well, that’s life apparently. And when I told him, he said he wouldn’t mind. “He believes what he wants to believe.” - So actually he is some kind of cafeteria Catholic I’d say.
Especially dad sympathizes a lot with (Lutheran) Evangelicalism - And to Evangelicalism in general.
Well, and mom and my sister are only Catholics by name…

Esdra

 

[Esdra]

I am confused. You believe whatever you want within the frame of what Christ teaches in the Holy Bible, including when the Holy Bible tells you that it is not okay to believe whatever you want?

My head hurts.

Okay, maybe I should have put it differently: I believe what the Bible and Jesus teach.

But actually at the moment I don’t really know what to believe: more the Baptists - or more the Catholics (since I have been in the recent Holy Days more often in mass [also together with the family…])

Esdra

 

[Esdra]

Isn’t that creating a god in your own image? Shouldn’t you conform your view to God’s, rather than believing what you want and making god conform to your own personal preferences?

Is there any saying of God’s that you have a hard time with, yet you believe because you know that’s what God has revealed?

Well, many people I got to know believe because you ought to.

But actually, concerning the Bible, in the meantime, I have the least problems in believing. (My pastor had really a hard time answering my questions, when I officially became a Christian! )

However, with the teachings of the CC… - That’s another story then. So many “problem points” in their doctrine, I even don’t know where to start…

Esdra

 

[dzheremi]

Okay, maybe I should have put it differently: I believe what the Bible and Jesus teach.

But actually at the moment I don’t really know what to believe: more the Baptists - or more the Catholics (since I have been in the recent Holy Days more often in mass [also together with the family…])

Esdra

But that is my point, Esdra: The Bible itself says that you cannot do what you are doing. You cannot follow your own heart and “believe whatever you want”. So something about this doesn’t add up.

Believe me, I can understand uncertainty about what to believe (I am going through it myself, and have been for a while now), but it is important that you try your best not to present Christianity falsely in the meantime. This will only make it harder for you to determine what to believe because it really does seem as you’ll believe in anything so long as it suits you at a given moment. This is a house built on sand.

 

[Esdra]

But that is my point, Esdra: The Bible itself says that you cannot do what you are doing. You cannot follow your own heart and “believe whatever you want”. So something about this doesn’t add up.

Believe me, I can understand uncertainty about what to believe (I am going through it myself, and have been for a while now), but it is important that you try your best not to present Christianity falsely in the meantime. This will only make it harder for you to determine what to believe because it really does seem as you’ll believe in anything so long as it suits you at a given moment. This is a house built on sand.

Thank you for your kind warning.

But actually, what is wrong about the Catechism and the Creeds of the Presbyterians?

I do believe what the Bible teaches (actually I already have done so before I became a Baptist and started searching all over for Jesus… - And this period lasted for 8 years so far.)

Esdra

 

[PRmerger]

Well, many people I got to know believe because you ought to.

Nothing wrong with that. It should start with faith and continue through understanding, no?

But actually, concerning the Bible, in the meantime, I have the least problems in believing. (My pastor had really a hard time answering my questions, when I officially became a Christian!

There are no hard sayings in the Bible for you, Esdra?

 

[Esdra]

Nothing wrong with that. It should start with faith and continue through understanding, no?

Yes, probably… Although this was actually the reason why I “inofficially left” the CC…
I tried to believe, but at a certain time I couldn’t do so anymore. And I understood nothing.
But I learned to understand the one or other thing concerning Catholicism here on CAF.
And for that I am really grateful!

There are no hard sayings in the Bible for you, Esdra?

Well, of course, I don’t know the whole Bible…
But most of the things are pretty clear to me.
What I am struggeling with is John 6 sometimes: Who is right? The Catholics by saying we have to take literal the blood and flesh of Jesus to us?
Or the Baptists who say that this only refers to Jesus death or so… And the final and only sacrifice Jesus has done for us so that we again can have a relationship to God which hadn’t been possible since the sin of our first parents, Adam and Eve.

Esdra

 

[PRmerger]

Well, of course, I don’t know the whole Bible…
But most of the things are pretty clear to me.
What I am struggeling with is John 6 sometimes: Who is right? The Catholics by saying we have to take literal the blood and flesh of Jesus to us?
Or the Baptists who say that this only refers to Jesus death or so… And the final and only sacrifice Jesus has done for us so that we again can have a relationship to God which hadn’t been possible since the sin of our first parents, Adam and Eve.

Esdra

What about Jesus’ teaching on divorce? Do you not find it hard to accept that if one divorces and re-marries it is adultery?

 

[Esdra]

What about Jesus’ teaching on divorce? Do you not find it hard to accept that if one divorces and re-marries it is adultery?

Mhm, if you ask me like this. - Yes, that’s hard to believe.

Why shouldn’t you remarry if you are divorced?
But as far as I know the doctrine of my Baptist Church (please don’t sue me, I am not sure!) that’s not so a big problem than in the CC (where you are not allowed to partake in the Eucharist anymore). - And as far as I know, in our Catholic parish this is also not that brutally handled anymore. (since we have Father Herbert who is rather liberal.)

Esdra

 

[PRmerger]

Mhm, if you ask me like this. - Yes, that’s hard to believe.

Why shouldn’t you remarry if you are divorced?
But as far as I know the doctrine of my Baptist Church (please don’t sue me, I am not sure!) that’s not so a big problem than in the CC (where you are not allowed to partake in the Eucharist anymore). - And as far as I know, in our Catholic parish this is also not that brutally handled anymore. (since we have Father Herbert who is rather liberal.)

Esdra

Ok. So this is what I’m saying, Esdra. If you reject this teaching because it’s unpalatable to you, then you are, indeed, creating a god in your own image.

Do you not see a problem with this paradigm?

And why shouldn’t you re-marry if you are divorced? Because you are already married. What God has joined let no man put asunder. What you profess before God, in front of witnesses, as a solemn vow before God and men, ought not be so readily dismissed, eh?

 

[Esdra]

Ok. So this is what I’m saying, Esdra. If you reject this teaching because it’s unpalatable to you, then you are, indeed, creating a god in your own image.

Do you not see a problem with this paradigm?

And why shouldn’t you re-marry if you are divorced? Because you are already married. What God has joined let no man put asunder. What you profess before God, in front of witnesses, as a solemn vow before God and men, ought not be so readily dismissed, eh?

Well, but I can also see the “secular side” of it? - can’t you also?

What if the relationship brakes apart? If the couple is constantly quarreling and have broken?
What if he is an alcoholic and is hitting her?
What if there are children? And they only see mom and dad quarreling?
What if he starts hitting the kids because he’s so drunken?

You see my point? All this and much more is happening very often in our “modern time”.
I can well understand couples divorcing.

And what if you get to know someone else to know? You love him and let’s say you and he are religious (and therefore are not allowed to have sex with each other before marrying) and they want to marry?

Oh, and I know why in the Baptist or any other Protestant Church when a divorced man/woman remarry is not so a big problem: because there Matrimony is not a Sacrament like in the CC.

Esdra

 

[KathleenGee]

Esdra,

Getting to know you, I must say kudos to all your work in studying the various religions!

Back to belief in the Eucharist, this is the common faith held by Christians since the Last Supper. Later, St. Paul admonished people about receiving the Lord unworthily, and that some of them had gotten sick, or if I recall, even died. I did read at one time a testimony from a witness who saw a man come up to take the Eucharist without faith and the consequences.

The Catholic Communion is closed. Only those who truly believe that the Lord’s Body, Soul, Blood and Divinity in the Eucharist may receive. It is a sacrilege to receive without this faith in Who you are receiving. You are not receiving a wafer symbolizing the Lord.

You must believe you are truly receiving Jesus…of the same God Who led the Jews out of Egypt as a Pillar of Fire, Who parted the Red Sea…

You are receiving God.

What brought about the Spanish Inquisition were people going up to receive the Eucharist without belief. This was a great burden to the Church because it was in essence allowing sacrileges committed against our Lord. At the same time, people of other religion were free to practice their own religion. In those times, there were very strained relations among Catholics, Jews, and Muslims. Only in 2003 did the Church open its archives to give the documented picture of the Inquisition. And as I brought it up, the abuses were caused by temporal leaders not obeying the clergy, and that for the most part, it was the clergy who exonerated many of the accused. The numbers who died during the Inquisition were very grossly exaggerated, the real number about 6,000. I myself have never had the time to read it. There are commentaries by those who have online.

There are countless miracles of the Eucharist all down through time. Italy has some ongoing miracles of the Eucharist, one particularly in the Naples area…St. Januarius…

But yes, one is to receive the Eucharist in faith that they are truly receiving God in form.

When we are baptized in the rite of Catholic baptism, we are all incorporated into the mystical Body of Christ and you cannot wash away your baptism.

 

[PRmerger]

Well, but I can also see the “secular side” of it? - can’t you also?

Esdra, if you truly believe in Christ Jesus and His message, there is no secular side to Truth. There is only one truth–His Truth.

What if the relationship brakes apart? If the couple is constantly quarreling and have broken?
What if he is an alcoholic and is hitting her?
What if there are children? And they only see mom and dad quarreling?
What if he starts hitting the kids because he’s so drunken?

There is no reason that a woman must stay in the home. She can (and, indeed, is obligated to) leave to protect herself and her children.

But why does that mean she must divorce?

I can well understand couples divorcing.

Rather, you can well understand why a woman (or, if the case may be, a man) might leave. But divorce? No.

And what if you get to know someone else to know? You love him and let’s say you and he are religious (and therefore are not allowed to have sex with each other before marrying) and they want to marry?

Picture this question with 2 people who are already married to other people. What if they meet and fall in love? Isn’t it “cruel” to say that they can’t be together just 'cause they’re already married to someone else?

Oh, and I know why in the Baptist or any other Protestant Church when a divorced man/woman remarry is not so a big problem: because there Matrimony is not a Sacrament like in the CC.

Esdra

That’s exactly what I’m saying, Esdra. The CC does not ever feel it can alter the message of Christ to make it more appealing.

All other denominations have taken that liberty–“Even though Jesus and the Bible said this ________ I’m going to say that Jesus was wrong on this point and declare that we can do it our way!” (Or, they might say, “Jesus actually didn’t mean ________, even though for centuries that’s what we all knew Jesus said, but because it’s too hard to accept, we’re going to say that Jesus didn’t really say that.”)

 

[Esdra]

Esdra, if you truly believe in Christ Jesus and His message, there is no secular side to Truth. There is only one truth–His Truth.

There is no reason that a woman must stay in the home. She can (and, indeed, is obligated to) leave to protect herself and her children.

But why does that mean she must divorce?

Rather, you can well understand why a woman (or, if the case may be, a man) might leave. But divorce? No.

Picture this question with 2 people who are already married to other people. What if they meet and fall in love? Isn’t it “cruel” to say that they can’t be together just 'cause they’re already married to someone else?

Well, they can in this case , right? So it is cruel. But, according to the teaching of the CC, they are not allowed to have sex?!

That’s exactly what I’m saying, Esdra. The CC does not ever feel it can alter the message of Christ to make it more appealing.

All other denominations have taken that liberty–“Even though Jesus and the Bible said this ________ I’m going to say that Jesus was wrong on this point and declare that we can do it our way!” (Or, they might say, “Jesus actually didn’t mean ________, even though for centuries that’s what we all knew Jesus said, but because it’s too hard to accept, we’re going to say that Jesus didn’t really say that.”)

Do you really think other denominations dare to say that Jesus was false? If Jesus is God, and I guess nearly ALL denominations can agree on that, he is infallible!
Rather then your second sentence in Brackets…
I guess Protestants often use this sentence because they think the CC has fallen somewhen into apostasy (by not reading God’s word, is often heard as a reason) and they say “Jesus did mean X like this and not like the CC is teaching it”.

Esdra