Why don't more "Traditionalists" get hands-on with the liturgy?

[Spiller]

Why don’t more “Traditionalists” get more hands-on with regard to the Mass? Is doing so that repugnant to them?

Many years ago the Mass I attended at my parish really began to hit new lows. We either had no pastor or one that couldn’t have cared less. Realizing that I had carped about things long enough I decided to really get involved. I became an adult server/reader/EMHC. Yes it was tough at times facilitating what were essentially deformations but it also provided a chance to fix certain things on the spot, educate/train, learn the ins-and-outs of the parish and to push HARD for real reform from the inside.

That’s precisely what the dissenters do. They get involved and with a great deal of patience, sweat and perseverance from attack they ever so slowly take over – whether those in charge like it or not. It seems like most “Traditionalists” I have come in contact with are unwilling to do this.

Is it because they find it so disgusting to be (for example) an EMHC when it appears they use too many per Mass so they just refuse? Do they not realize that often some rather unpleasant and heavy-lifting needs to be done to support true reform?

Or is it just too easy to flee or remain silent and boil in one’s own bitterness? In my case my family has worshiped at my parish for several generations and I was not willing to leave – or stay and do nothing. Perhaps others simply do not share that relationship with a parish?

It would seem that “Traditionalists” could have a HUGE and often positive impact on the liturgy if they became hands-on.

 

[cothrige]

Why don’t you read the bible more? Or pray more? Or sin less? Or love more?

It seems to me that you seem to have some idea of what traditionalists don’t do enough, in contrast to yourself of course, who does plenty. Perhaps the whole situation is not what you think it is? Maybe you don’t actually know what traditional Catholics do or don’t do in their parish. I have seen many post here who are very active in their parishes and in other ways.

Then again, perhaps assisting in the manner you suggest is not what you make it sound like. How exactly would a traditionalist volunteering to be an EMHC do anything? Sure, it would further your goals, but what of a traditional nature would it accomplish? He or she surely wouldn’t share their view that there are too many such people at any given time by actually adding to it themselves. This would be like a conservative Republican wondering why more liberal Democrats don’t volunteer to protest at abortion clinics. Can’t imagine why they don’t.

 

[Pax_et_Caritas]

It would seem that “Traditionalists” could have a HUGE and often positive impact on the liturgy if they became hands-on.

Well, as a Traditionalists who has been to Mass all across the country and has never witnessed abuses, all I can say is that we must be doing something right.

Maybe the solution for you and the others who suffer abuses and heretical Priests is to start attending Mass where the Traditonalists do. At the Traditional Latin Mass you won’t find any abuses, and will get only orthodox preaching.

If you can’t solve the problems at your Church, come and join us at ours. Our Churches are free from such problems.

 

[Spiller]

Why don’t you read the bible more? Or pray more? Or sin less? Or love more?

What’s broken on the inside of you that makes you suggest I don’t? More red herring?

How come you didn’t start a novena instead of reading my posting? How come you take showers when you could be praying? Want some more red herrings?

It seems to me that you seem to have some idea of what traditionalists don’t do enough, in contrast to yourself of course, who does plenty. Perhaps the whole situation is not what you think it is? Maybe you don’t actually know what traditional Catholics do or don’t do in their parish. I have seen many post here who are very active in their parishes and in other ways.

Calm down. There is no need to be so defensive. Simply put “Traditionalists” have been routinely outflanked/outworked by others. How come?

Then again, perhaps assisting in the manner you suggest is not what you make it sound like. How exactly would a traditionalist volunteering to be an EMHC do anything? Sure, it would further your goals, but what of a traditional nature would it accomplish? He or she surely wouldn’t share their view that there are too many such people at any given time by actually adding to it themselves. This would be like a conservative Republican wondering why more liberal Democrats don’t volunteer to protest at abortion clinics. Can’t imagine why they don’t.

I see so at least in your case it is a matter of apathy because you don’t want to (as you see it) get your hands dirty. I sorta figured that was the case with some.

 

[Spiller]

Well, as a Traditionalists who has been to Mass all across the country and has never witnessed abuses, all I can say is that we must be doing something right.

Maybe the solution for you and the others who suffer abuses and heretical Priests is to start attending Mass where the Traditonalists do. At the Traditional Latin Mass you won’t find any abuses, and will get only orthodox preaching.

If you can’t solve the problems at your Church, come and join us at ours. Our Churches are free from such problems.

No. No way would I have cut and run. I also would never want to be part of a community whose foundation is largely judging others nor do I want to go into schism.

Things are good today and getting better, thanks be to God.

 

[palmas85]

Why don’t more “Traditionalists” get more hands-on with regard to the Mass? Is doing so that repugnant to them?

Many years ago the Mass I attended at my parish really began to hit new lows. We either had no pastor or one that couldn’t have cared less. Realizing that I had carped about things long enough I decided to really get involved. I became an adult server/reader/EMHC. Yes it was tough at times facilitating what were essentially deformations but it also provided a chance to fix certain things on the spot, educate/train, learn the ins-and-outs of the parish and to push HARD for real reform from the inside.

That’s precisely what the dissenters do. They get involved and with a great deal of patience, sweat and perseverance from attack they ever so slowly take over – whether those in charge like it or not. It seems like most “Traditionalists” I have come in contact with are unwilling to do this.

Is it because they find it so disgusting to be (for example) an EMHC when it appears they use too many per Mass so they just refuse? Do they not realize that often some rather unpleasant and heavy-lifting needs to be done to support true reform?

Or is it just too easy to flee or remain silent and boil in one’s own bitterness? In my case my family has worshiped at my parish for several generations and I was not willing to leave – or stay and do nothing. Perhaps others simply do not share that relationship with a parish?

It would seem that “Traditionalists” could have a HUGE and often positive impact on the liturgy if they became hands-on.

The only problem with that is that once you are known as a Traditionalist in many parishes you are cast out. You couldn’t do anything if you wanted to. The progressives have all the spots locked up and they only allow in who they want in, who happens to be their type of people. I was a catechist for a good while, and it was a constant and I mean constant battle with the DRO to get anything done. Her motto was, and she had a sign over her desk that had it printed out

**Don’t bore them with dogma, cover them with love.
**
Which is exactly what she wanted both CCD and RCIA to be. Love feasts with very little solid at all about the faith. It got to the point where the Pastor had to step in and try to tone her down a bit. She ran crying to the Bishop saying that the Priest, an elderly Filipino had no concept of religious education and was trying to take away her authority and demeaning her. It was intolerable. Besides that the Priest, being a Filipino was also sexist and hostile towards women in authority positions. She demanded that she receive a public apology.

She got her way. The Priest was humiliated in front of the whole congregation.

After that, it really became intolerable. She or her husband would sit in on all classes and constantly correct:thumbsup: the instructors when they got away from the prescribed syllabus which was generally something like
Write an essay on why God loves you. or write a paper on how you can be a better Christian by becoming more socially involved.

After a while, when I realized that I could not teach, I left, as did the others. I don’t think that my situation was unique at all.

 

[saint_rafael]

EMHC is an abuse of liturgy.
Rome never allowed it. They allowed EMHC only in cases when the priest could not distribute and extremely gigantic Masses.

EMHC are an invention never before used in the history of the Church.

The touching of the sacred species belongs to the priest alone. When I read St. Thomas Aquinas and Michael Davies, I quit being a EMHC. It was sacrilege on my part to do what is the privilege of the ordained. I have horror stories of all the sacraliges committed by laymen as part of the EMHC.

I always knew that somehow it was wrong. I never felt being a EMHC was right.

Priests do not need EMHC. They can get the other priests in the parish to help them distribute. Communion under one species, the sacred host alone, is the best reform possible. It eliminates all the busybodies who are trying to act like priests.

Traditionalists are now doing something. We are trying to get the TLM into as many parishes as possible across this country and have Summorum Pontificum implemented.

 

[Spiller]

The only problem with that is that once you are known as a Traditionalist in many parishes you are cast out. You couldn’t do anything if you wanted to. The progressives have all the spots locked up and they only allow in who they want in, who happens to be their type of people. I was a catechist for a good while, and it was a constant and I mean constant battle with the DRO to get anything done. Her motto was, and she had a sign over her desk that had it printed out

That’s a terrible cop-out! But I must ask, just how would someone know you are a “Traditionalist?” Because you quietly wear a suit and tie (a good thing) when you serve as an EMHC or because you always bemoan the lack of veils worn by women or maniples by priests (ridiculous?)

You suggest “progressives have all the spots locked up and they only allow in who they want in” is a bunch of bunkum. My parish continually advertises in the bulletin for help as do most others. It might take a long time for new blood to take over – and it would take a considerable amount of patience and perseverance bu that’s precisely where the others outdo the “Traditionalists.”

 

[Spiller]

EMHC is an abuse of liturgy.
Rome never allowed it. They allowed EMHC only in cases when the priest could not distribute and extremely gigantic Masses.

EMHC are an invention never before used in the history of the Church.

The touching of the sacred species belongs to the priest alone. When I read St. Thomas Aquinas and Michael Davies, I quit being a EMHC. It was sacrilege on my part to do what is the privilege of the ordained. I have horror stories of all the sacraliges committed by laymen as part of the EMHC.

I always knew that somehow it was wrong. I never felt being a EMHC was right.

Priests do not need EMHC. They can get the other priests in the parish to help them distribute. Communion under one species, the sacred host alone, is the best reform possible. It eliminates all the busybodies who are trying to act like priests.

Traditionalists are now doing something. We are trying to get the TLM into as many parishes as possible across this country and have Summorum Pontificum implemented.

You are clearly part of the problem. You seem to think you know better than the Church. You are one of the reasons why many “Traditionalists” are ignored or worse, looked down upon by other Catholics. People like you make things very difficult for actual traditionally-minded Catholics.

 

[markadm]

The reason why, most likely, is that until the Missal of Pope Paul VI, there were no such things as readers or EMHCs. They are still prohibited in the old rite.

Of course, as you say, there’s nothing to stop us being altar servers or to get involved in catechesis. Though, I would make the point that Priests should be involved in catechesis much more than they are now. It’s part of their Ministry, and a place where they have a special grace to teach the faith.

Spiller: let me make one thing very clear. EMHCs were not allowed before the new Mass came along. Even now, the Holy See goes to lengths to specify when and how they should be used. The document Redemptionis Sacramentum makes it very clear that in the vast majority of cases they are used it is likely without necessity and thus unlawful.

And what palmas85 said is true. Traditionalists are shunned in many places, as I know from first-hand experience… (“oh, the Latin Masssssss! That’s horrible!”)

 

[mattwcu]

If I can be so bold…traditionalists don’t get more hands on with the liturgy because we believe the liturgy is not something laymen should get their hands on.

 

[Spiller]

The reason why, most likely, is that until the Missal of Pope Paul VI, there were no such things as readers or EMHCs. They are still prohibited in the old rite.

So? I would say the GREAT majority of traditionally-minded Catholics still attend the Pauline Mass.

Of course, as you say, there’s nothing to stop us being altar servers or to get involved in catechesis. Though, I would make the point that Priests should be involved in catechesis much more than they are now. It’s part of their Ministry, and a place where they have a special grace to teach the faith.

That’s axiomatic, but even if some priests are not involved, that in no way should stop the laity.

Spiller: let me make one thing very clear. EMHCs were not allowed before the new Mass came along. Even now, the Holy See goes to lengths to specify when and how they should be used. The document Redemptionis Sacramentum makes it very clear that in the vast majority of cases they are used it is likely without necessity and thus unlawful.

Let me be just as clear the the Church DOES allow the use of EMsHC, at least in the OF. There is no way around that. Sure there are specific conditions – like just about everything else with the Mass that must be met – no one is disputing that.

 

[Spiller]

If I can be so bold…traditionalists don’t get more hands on with the liturgy because we believe the liturgy is not something laymen should get their hands on.

Untrue.

That’s might be true for some “Traditionalists” but I would say the great majority of traditionally-minded Catholics not only attend the Pauline Mass, they also follow what the Church teaches/instructs and not what some merely “believe is better.”

 

[mattwcu]

Is this going to be another thread about how real traditionalists attend the Pauline Mass and love it?

We all know what you meant or were inferring when you said “traditionalists”. Switching it up now halfway through the conversation is disingenuous and only leads to argument.

 

[saint_rafael]

You are clearly part of the problem. You seem to think you know better than the Church. You are one of the reasons why many “Traditionalists” are ignored or worse, looked down upon by other Catholics.

EMCH are an abuse. Rome has tried for years to get the American Church to stop it. Pope John Paul II made a paper attempt with Dominicae Cenae, but it was ignored.

vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/letters/documents/hf_jp-ii_let_24021980_dominicae-cenae_en.html

Dominicae Cenae:

Part III, section 11

“But one must not forget the primary office of priests, who have been consecrated by their ordination to represent Christ the Priest: for this reason their hands, like their words and their will, have become the direct instruments of Christ. Through this fact, that is, as ministers of the Holy Eucharist, they have a primary responsibility for the sacred species, because it is a total responsibility: they offer the bread and wine, they consecrate it, and then distribute the sacred species to the participants in the assembly who wish to receive them”…

"To touch the sacred species and to distribute them with their own hands is a privilege of the ordained, one which indicates an active participation in the ministry of the Eucharist."

 

[Cristiano]

EMCH are an abuse. Rome has tried for years to get the American Church to stop it…

Can you please explain to me why EMHCs are allowed in some of the parishes of the Diocese of Rome?

 

[saint_rafael]

Many traditionalists do not want to reform the New Mass. We want the New Mass gone. The only reform is to have the TLM in every parish.

Many traditionalists only attend the TLM and want to have the traditional Mass of the Church, the Mass of all time, replace the blunder of the New Mass. The New Mass is bad liturgy. It needs to just die off.

 

[Margarite]

Why don’t we get involved?

Well, first of all I wouldn’t call you a trad if you are a EMHC. Secondly, I believe that EMHC should be outlawed unless there is a certain ratio of say 1000 or more people per priest in a parish. And I think only men should be EMHC.

Thirdly, I have tried to get involved. I tried to become the leader of my youth group because the leader was so liberal and spewing such heresies that I couldn’t stand it. I wasn’t allowed. I was too young(18). I left because every time I tried to introduce something good, they took and and turned it into something bad. Such as the time I said that we should not say as our grace before meals “Jesus is a Dude, Thank you Dude for our Food.” But instead say the traditional grace. So the leader say if anyone else has another one they would like to introduce that would be good. She doesn’t say that it was a mistake to say the dude grace, she doesn’t say that the traditional one is better.
Then the time that she put on a skit saying that it was better to be happy than to go to mass on Sunday. I corrected her and she said sorry, but did not bring it up to the group. I introduced the scapular. Instead of having a priest come and offer to enroll the other kids, she lit candles and said a mushy prayer and then had everyone put a scapular on.

I’m sorry, but I couldn’t stand there and watch it anymore. I couldn’t have everything that I tried to do turn into something bad.

Every Sunday, the music is protestant. My parents write letters with citations from authoritative documents, but the response is always rude and negative. We would get involved in the choir except none of us has a voice that you would want to hear, and we don’t know how to read or play music. But that doesn’t mean we don’t know good Catholic music.

The tabernacle is on the side in the Church. We can’t go into the Church and move it, so we write letters to the priest again citing the authoritative documents.

When a priest at our old parish refused to let my brother receive his first Holy Communion on the tongue (which is the preferred and ordinary way) and because the priest was using a crystal chalice which is forbidden, we wrote the bishop who said he would look into it. The bishop did nothing. A year latter that priest was publicly exposed for having stolen hundreds of thousands of dollars. And the principal of the school attached to that church, my father wrote a letter to the bishop about him. A year latter he was also exposed publicly in a scandal.

When we lived in Denver, we attended a mass near our house, on Easter Sunday. The priest wore bunny ears and hopped around the entire mass. We left attended another mass over half an hour away from our house and the archbishop received a letter. The bishop of Denver is awesome and he did something immediately. Another Sunday at a different parish, a missionary priest came and gave a sermon about the gospel which was about the miracle of the loaves and fishes. He said that there was no miracle, everyone who was there was just inspired by Christ sharing, so they took out the food in their pockets and shared too.
My father corrected him after mass, and wrote to the bishop and pastor.

Don’t say we aren’t doing things. My parents have six kids and they both have to work. They do the most that they possibly can. And I know that it is the same for many, many other trad families. I am happy that you are involved, but don’t hold yourself up saying that you are better than anyone. We are all out there trying, we each have different circumstances that we have to juggle, don’t point fingers.

Have a wonderful summer.

By the way. I am going to Wyoming Catholic College, so that when I am finished, I will have a degree to back up my words when I face off with choir directors, EMHC, priests, bishops and whoever else is disrespecting Our Lord and The Church! I am happy to do this and am so excited, but it is a great financial burden on my family and it will take four years of my life. Just remember that many people are trying, and most trads are trying the hardest. So don’t put us down, the liberals are already doing a good job of that.

 

[palmas85]

That’s a terrible cop-out! But I must ask, just how would someone know you are a “Traditionalist?” Because you quietly wear a suit and tie (a good thing) when you serve as an EMHC or because you always bemoan the lack of veils worn by women or maniples by priests (ridiculous?)

You suggest “progressives have all the spots locked up and they only allow in who they want in” is a bunch of bunkum. My parish continually advertises in the bulletin for help as do most others. It might take a long time for new blood to take over – and it would take a considerable amount of patience and perseverance bu that’s precisely where the others outdo the “Traditionalists.”

Since you apparently didn’t even read what I wrote, it is pretty apparent your main purpose isn’t any form of discussion but rather a vehicle to attack traditionals in any way possible. Veils and maniples? Give me a break. I wrote nothing about either, and never have.

As far as advertising for help, maybe they do, maybe they don;t. I’m not there. I can tell you though that in the parishes I’ve been in. only those who tow the line get in.

As to how they know I’m a Traditionalist, probably the same way I know that you are not.

Some things are just pretty obvious,

 

[Spiller]

Since you apparently didn’t even read what I wrote, it is pretty apparent your main purpose isn’t any form of discussion but rather a vehicle to attack traditionals in any way possible. Veils and maniples? Give me a break. I wrote nothing about either, and never have.

As far as advertising for help, maybe they do, maybe they don;t. I’m not there. I can tell you though that in the parishes I’ve been in. only those who tow the line get in.

**As to how they know I’m a Traditionalist, probably the same way I know that you are not.

Some things are just pretty obvious,**

Like what?

(I would be the first to agree that I am not a “Traditionalist.” I am a traditionally-minded Catholic Christian.)